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Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

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Anyway, i'm gonna be completely fair here, it is not like OP's arguments have no logic behind it. However myself is not really knowledgable about the series since i only watch anime so i'm neutral.

And about the whole repeated arguments from previous threads, and OP disagree that he didn't repeat but have new arguments, you guys can conduct an official comparison word by word to see if there is new arguments or just all repeated one
 
Reiner said:
He did, except the part that silversea is not a creation but existed since always because it's not stated it wasn't. It's headcanon rather than any new argument.
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Now again i'm gonna be completely fair here, if it truly is not stated nor proved, then whatever type of interpretation is headcanon on it own. However Occam's Razor will favor OP's side of argument
 
Vietthai96 said:
Now again i'm gonna be completely fair here, if it truly is not stated nor proved, then whatever type of interpretation is headcanon on it own. However Occam's Razor will favor OP's side of argument
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He did copied previous threads except "all of creation" part. Leaving that aside there is a feat for Abyssal World vortex affecting the Silver Sea and Tastumi argument for Reverse formula affecting the Silver Sea order. So it's not headcanon. There are feats for affecting the order of Silver Sea. Venozdonor destroys anything in the verse and Anos has statement for destroying the Silver Sea
 
Vietthai96 said:
if it truly is not stated nor proved,
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Sorry? The OP is saying silversea is not a part of "all of existence" because "it's not stated that it was" is the only proof he has. I mean, zeno realm is not a part of all of existence because it's not stated it was? "All of existence " is not a name given to specific body but a general term used to represent "all that exist".
 
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Just to be clear, I'm not backing myself in to the "debunked before argument", I debated with OP many times, I gave my arguments and he gave his arguments then I stop arguing and then start to waiting for staff input, and that's when the rest of users and staff agreed with me so.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
He did copied previous threads except "all of creation" part. Leaving that aside there is a feat for Abyssal World vortex affecting the Silver Sea and Tastumi argument for Reverse formula affecting the Silver Sea order. So it's not headcanon. There are feats for affecting the order of Silver Sea. Venozdonor destroys anything in the verse and Anos has statement for destroying the Silver Sea
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I do understand your side of argument, that why i'm neutral
Reiner said:
Sorry? The OP is saying silversea is not a part of "all of existence" because "it's not stated that it was" is the only proof he has. I mean, zeno realm is not a part of all of existence because it's not stated it was? "All of existence " is not a name given to specific body but a general term used to represent "all that exist".
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I mean, it is not like it is totally wrong interpretation, it is not stated thus in a grey area
Dereck03 said:
Just to be clear, I'm not backing myself in to the "debunked before argument", I debated with OP many times, I gave my arguments and he gave his arguments then I stop arguing and then start to waiting for staff input, and that's when the rest of users and staff agreed with me so.
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I think you can count staff vote at this point, since most normal users either disagree or neutral
 
Reiner said:
Sorry? The OP is saying silversea is not a part of "all of existence" because "it's not stated that it was" is the only proof he has. I mean, zeno realm is not a part of all of existence because it's not stated it was? "All of existence " is not a name given to specific body but a general term used to represent "all that exist".
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That's not what I was saying. I was saying that at the time that Anos made that statement, the only thing he was aware of was the World he lived in. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is still Venuzdonoa working in "all of existence" as Anos referred to when he made that statement. Worlds in the Silver Sea and the Silver Sea itself aren't the same thing. Worlds ("all of existence") can't survive in the Silver Sea without being surrounded by Bubbles, so equating the two things as one and the same isn't logical. Now, if Anos makes that same statement now that he has knowledge of the Silver Sea, things would be different. In other words, I'm not saying that the Silver Sea isn't part of "all of existence", but that it isn't part of what Anos was referring to as "all of existence" at the time he made that statement.

Also, this is just the 4th point/argument in my initial post. The full argument I have against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea which developed during this thread (and certainly isn't the same as the arguments in previous threads that were "debunked") can be seen a few comments above.
 
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MaxLevel_King said:
I was saying that at the time that Anos made that statement, the only thing he was aware of was the World he lived in. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is still Venuzdonoa working in "all of existence" as Anos referred to when he made that statement.
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This, you can't do this. By virtue of the premise for the downgrade you're proposing, you're using the very same thing you're arguing against to peove something.

Anos was only aware about his world. That is what "all of existence" will be to him. Equalizing "all of existence" to mean other worlds as well is completely headcanon as Anos wasn't aware of other worlds either not to mention that different worlds have their own limited order so "all of existence" for militia world cannot equate as "all of existence" in every world.

In regards to your debunk;
1. Anos not knowing about the silver sea is irrelevant as Venuzdonoa statement says "regardless of how sturdy, eternal or infinite it is" it doesn't say "whether indestructible, eternal or infinite". You don't need to be an english wiz to know the difference between these 2 statements. If the latter statement was made, then yes a qualitative size difference can be used as an argument against it as it doesn't go beyond the scope of normal durability, immortality, infinity but in the case of the former, it uses "regardless" which means things such as durability immortality and infinity are not a factor to it at all and it operates beyond the scope of such things.

2. Surprisingly I've already addressed your 2nd point in the reply above. Why would "all of existence" in Anos world which is the only thing he was aware of be equalized to "all of existence" in another world when he wasn't aware of them not to mention how fundamentally, every world is different due to "limited order"?

Before i carry on, in other to thoroughly bind points 1 & 2 together, Anos was subconsciously aware of things outside what "all of existence" would mean to him when he created the sword. It's been said already that Venuzdonoa is deep magic and the order of destruction used to create it is merely a seal to control its power.

3. I don't really care about the LoD scaling but trying to use the fact they only affected 1 deep world and it wasn't even destroyed goes against powerscaling 101 (AP≠DC) not to mention how anos was using hos Father's spells which it's AoE can be restricted and the same parrington casually destroyed a deep world prior to this fight which defeats the entire point of this, there's also the fact that parrington is the most knowledgeable person on the LoD capabilities and you can't be fated to do something if you can't actually do it. There are also weaker characters like lebrahard blocking too entire bubbles from colliding with a forcefield. The bubbles themselves will be outside "all of existence" and are still described as "endless" even when viewed from outside.

4. Similar to point 3 above, this scaling has nothing to do with me and I'd rather completely finish the novel before i address it (40 chapters left).

5. This is basically the easiest point to handle as it showcases not only the OP lack of understanding not only about the story but about our standards itself which i have addressed already
Tatsumi504 said:
Type 1 concepts are concepts that are independent of what they govern. Changing these concepts will also change every object in the reality they govern.

Order=laws & concepts. The silver sea possesses it's own order outside of the limited order of each world. It is the order of the silver sea that fire dew flows from the shallow worlds to the deep world. This fire dew influences the entire sea such that order exerts more power the deeper it is.

Not only is you're interpretation against the site standards, you're also contradicting what has been established multiple times in the series by saying the silver sea order doesn't affect the silver sea. Can you pause for a moment and process how dumb that is? Something that governs fundamental existence of life, concepts, laws, fate, history, information doesn't affect what it governs in anyway?
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Tatsumi504 said:
Worlds are not dependent on order, order is what gives birth to worlds. You're saying it like They're in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
Order is the world, the world is not order.
It's not that the world needs Order to survive, it's that nothing can exist without order. Until you can understand this basic relationship, nothing you say makes sense.
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Tatsumi504 said:
There's a difference between "Worlds are dependent on Order" and "Nothing can exist without Order".
The former denotes a symbiotic relationship wherein one benefits from the other while the latter denotes that One is the fundamental essence that gives birth to the existence of the other.
Basically, is the world dependent on Order? Yes but saying it that way is wrong.
Order is the world, the world isn't Order. The world moves according to Order. Order is providence, it is unchangeable, it is fate itself, the very laws and concepts that make up not support the world.
Click to expand...
Scan is in this comment
 
Tatsumi504 said:
This, you can't do this. By virtue of the premise for the downgrade you're proposing, you're using the very same thing you're arguing against to peove something.

Anos was only aware about his world. That is what "all of existence" will be to him. Equalizing "all of existence" to mean other worlds as well is completely headcanon as Anos wasn't aware of other worlds either not to mention that different worlds have their own limited order so "all of existence" for militia world cannot equate as "all of existence" in every world.

In regards to your debunk;
1. Anos not knowing about the silver sea is irrelevant as Venuzdonoa statement says "regardless of how sturdy, eternal or infinite it is" it doesn't say "whether indestructible, eternal or infinite". You don't need to be an english wiz to know the difference between these 2 statements. If the latter statement was made, then yes a qualitative size difference can be used as an argument against it as it doesn't go beyond the scope of normal durability, immortality, infinity but in the case of the former, it uses "regardless" which means things such as durability immortality and infinity are not a factor to it at all and it operates beyond the scope of such things.

2. Surprisingly I've already addressed your 2nd point in the reply above. Why would "all of existence" in Anos world which is the only thing he was aware of be equalized to "all of existence" in another world when he wasn't aware of them not to mention how fundamentally, every world is different due to "limited order"?

Before i carry on, in other to thoroughly bind points 1 & 2 together, Anos was subconsciously aware of things outside what "all of existence" would mean to him when he created the sword. It's been said already that Venuzdonoa is deep magic and the order of destruction used to create it is merely a seal to control its power.

3. I don't really care about the LoD scaling but trying to use the fact they only affected 1 deep world and it wasn't even destroyed goes against powerscaling 101 (AP≠DC) not to mention how anos was using hos Father's spells which it's AoE can be restricted and the same parrington casually destroyed a deep world prior to this fight which defeats the entire point of this, there's also the fact that parrington is the most knowledgeable person on the LoD capabilities and you can't be fated to do something if you can't actually do it. There are also weaker characters like lebrahard blocking too entire bubbles from colliding with a forcefield. The bubbles themselves will be outside "all of existence" and are still described as "endless" even when viewed from outside.

4. Similar to point 3 above, this scaling has nothing to do with me and I'd rather completely finish the novel before i address it (40 chapters left).

5. This is basically the easiest point to handle as it showcases not only the OP lack of understanding not only about the story but about our standards itself which i have addressed already



Scan is in this comment
Click to expand...
1. "Regardless" in reference to his World. Him saying regardless doesn't automatically mean that the statement also applies to anything beyond his knowledge. The difference between the Silver Sea itself and the Worlds within it isn't a simple matter of being a greater infinity. Worlds literally cannot survive in the Silver Sea without being surrounded by Bubbles.

2. Your reasoning here makes sense. However, it's undeniably true that "all of existence (Militia World)" as Anos referred to means a World, and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is Venuzdonoa still working in "all of existence (a World)", so I still disagree with you.

That doesn't matter. Anos was still making a conscious statement with the knowledge he was aware of. And again, "all of existence (Militia World)"=World/Deeper World=World, you get the point.

3. No characters in the series have DC comparable to destroying the Silver Sea in the first place, so no other characters would scale comparatively to destroying the Silver Sea AP or otherwise. Also, being "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" doesn't have to mean that he would be capable of destroying the entire thing at once, so why would you automatically assume that when no other feats suggest it? Another thing, Lebrahard blocking bubbles which are outside "all of existence" still doesn't change the context of Anos' statement. To begin with, Bubbles simply surround "all of existence" as Anos referred to anyways. The nature of Bubbles surrounding Worlds ("all of existence") and the entire Silver Sea itself are still two separate matters.

4. Fair enough.

5. I will admit that this is the hardest point for me to argue. However, the reasoning for Venuzdonoa being able to destroy the Silver Sea because it can destroy Order is still a massive reach that isn't backed by any other feats. At best, even if I can't debunk this argument, it would only warrant Venuzdonoa having "Likely" or "Possibly".
 
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Fixxed said:
Well, the "all creation" statement not include silver sea is not new argument at all

First downgrade CRT already talking about that and yeah still not get accept
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The "all creation" part is the same, but the context and reasoning is completely different. In the other downgrade attempts it was simply ""Anos lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea when he said all of creation. He was just referring to his World". In this CRT it's that plus "Worlds are creations by their God of Creation, but nothing in the story suggests or implies that the Silver Sea itself is a creation, therefore, the "all of creation" statement wouldn't apply"".
 
Reiner said:
He did, except the part that silversea is not a creation but existed since always because it's not stated it wasn't. It's headcanon rather than any new argument.
Click to expand...
I never said that it always existed, but that there's no proof that it's a creation. Just because it came into existence (ie had a beginning) doesn't mean that it's a creation.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
The "all creation" part is the same, but the context and reasoning is completely different. In the other downgrade attempts it was simply ""Anos lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea when he said all of creation. He was just referring to his World". In this CRT it's that plus "Worlds are creations by their God of Creation, but nothing in the story suggests or implies that the Silver Sea itself is a creation, therefore, the "all of creation" statement wouldn't apply"".
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Hahhh bruh, we already talking about that (all of creation) in previous CRT. We use "all of creation" as original meaning of it, because there are no anti feats that make us can limited the "all of creation" to just only a world/bubble

You just repeated the same argument without know why that argument get rejected
 
Fixxed said:
Hahhh bruh, we already talking about that (all of creation) in previous CRT. We use "all of creation" as original meaning of it, because there are no anti feats that make us can limited the "all of creation" to just only a world/bubble

You just repeated the same argument without know why that argument get rejected
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You're straight up just not understanding the distinction between the "all of creation" argument in this CRT and the "all of creation" argument brought up in previous CRT's.
 
Let me break "it" ("all of creation" arguments) down.

Previous CRT's all of creation argument;

1. Anos had no knowledge of the Silver Sea at the time of the statement.

2. Therefore, the statement only applies to his World.

This CRT's all of creation argument;

1. Same as the previous CRT's.

2. At the time of the statement, Anos was referring to his World as "all of creation". We know that Worlds are creations by their God of Creation. However, there is no proof that the Silver Sea is a creation. Given this, there is no proof that the statement applies to the entirety of the Silver Sea itself.

Note: The Silver Sea was stated to have come into existence. That doesn't mean that it's a creation however.

Note 2: There are no "anti-feats" to the statement as Anos meant it. The statement as Anos meant it and the incorrect interpretation of that statement to also include the Silver Sea are two different things.
 
I have a better argument for the 5th point. No characters in the series have affected the entire Order of the Silver Sea. Deepening Shallow magic and reversing the formula for Deep magic so that it works in Shallow Worlds has no effect on the overall Order that magic and Order are stronger the deeper a World is. Said Order is only affected on a very limited scale (ie the specific magic spell they deepened/reversed).
 
MaxLevel_King said:
"Regardless" in reference to his World. Him saying regardless doesn't automatically mean that the statement also applies to anything beyond his knowledge. The difference between the Silver Sea itself and the Worlds within it isn't a simple matter of being a greater infinity. Worlds literally cannot survive in the Silver Sea without being surrounded by Bubbles.
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It wasn't in reference to it. "Regardless" here is in reference to anything be it within his scope of knowledge or not. Anos didn't even know who/what a nonconformist is before he created Venuzdonoa yet it destroyed "graham" who is outside "all of existence".
That difference is exactly what the "regardless" is for, it shows it doesn't matter what it is.
Wtf are you even saying now? It's merely a difference in infinity, that's the only difference in their size.
"Worlds can't survive in the sea" based on what? The silver water is just simply inhabitable and absorbs magic power from those who enter, that's all not to mention they're monsters or creatures that can survive in the sea regardless so this means nothing at all.
MaxLevel_King said:
Your reasoning here makes sense. However, it's undeniably true that "all of existence (Militia World)" as Anos referred to means a World, and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is Venuzdonoa still working in "all of existence (a World)", so I still disagree with you.
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This doesn't deny my reasoning at all, you're just making an assumption. "All of Existence" (militia world) as you say (Anos never made reference to the world as all of existence as they're places in it he didn't know about) means a world doesn't mean you can arbitrarily equalize it to "every world". The biggest supporting evidence is the fact that each world is fundamentally different due to their limited order. In the magic bullet world, only spells based on magic bullets work, The smithing world is limited to tools, the puppet world makes use of puppets etc. Each would contain parts of existence that clearly isn't in the other yet Venuzdonoa is able to affect them regardless of their laws, concepts & logic being outside what anos perceived as "all of existence"
MaxLevel_King said:
That doesn't matter. Anos was still making a conscious statement with the knowledge he was aware of. And again, "all of existence (Militia World)"=World/Deeper World=World, you get the point.
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Still he created something beyond "all of existence" (Venuzdonoa) yet thought the laws, voncepts and formula behind it were part of what he knew. Naturally, since he did create it, it would be part of what he perceives as "all of existence"
MaxLevel_King said:
Also, being "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" doesn't have to mean that he would be capable of destroying the entire thing at once, so why would you automatically assume that when no other feats suggest it?
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I never assumed such. There is no other interpretation that can be given to "fated to destroy this silver sea". Even if this is over time as i clearly interpret it as, fact remains the LoD of Evezeino can destroy the sea. Venuzdonoa naturally scales above the LoD but the biggest factor would be that it doesn't care about time so the timeframe the LoD needs wouldn't matter to it as Venuzdonoa as established in Arc 4 is outside the Order of time, merely by holding it, one becomes removed from time itself.
Anyway, i don't care about this as it wasn't brought up by me.
MaxLevel_King said:
However, the reasoning for Venuzdonoa being able to destroy the Silver Sea because it can destroy Order is still a massive reach that isn't backed by any other feats.
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Order has been established as being something so fundamental that it is the reason of existence (Type 1 concept) not that existence is dependent on it (Type 2 concept possibly type 1). Even if order were a type 2 concept, these concepts can still alter every object they govern if they're altered themselves.
Nothing can exist without order, before there is anything, there must be order be it creation, destruction, life, death, time, causality, fate, space, minds etc. The silver sea is governed by order, a concept wouldn't automatically become type 3 because it exists in a higher dimensional space. Thus affecting the order of the silver sea would affect it.
The silver sea isn't affected by anos disrupting the order of destruction because they're at least countless*99 other worlds with the same order of destruction+ that of the silver sea as well.

PS: Can everyone except staff that isn't contributing in the argument stop replying already?
Ant is asking for a summary and there's no way to easily compile everything important into one short comment so at least lets keep things civil & short so that's whoever else that's evaluating this can easily access the current arguments.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
You're straight up just not understanding the distinction between the "all of creation" argument in this CRT and the "all of creation" argument brought up in previous CRT's.
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No no, you not understand why the previous argument is get rejected. And you still bring same argument. The previous downgrade is not rejected because arnos is not yet know silver sea, but because we use "all of creation" as it true meaning. And then you still brough the same argument by say about the god of creator

That not only just repeated argument but also nitpicking word, all of creation is mean all that exist, is not necessary mean all that been created, so dont nitpicking the word creation
 
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And before you continue say:
"All of creation is not include silver sea, because silver sea is not creation or created by someone or something"
You better search and learn again what the word "creation" and "all/whole of creation" mean

Creation can mean some act that produce something or something that bring to existance (like God created world)

But also can mean the whole world, or anything, everything, all thing

www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com

www.britannica.com

Creation Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

CREATION meaning: 1 : the act of making or producing something that did not exist before the act of creating something; 2 : something new that is made or produced something that has been created
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com

 
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