Upgrade for the Gods ability. Maou Gakuin

[Naito-desu]

Why the meta narrative transcendance is need???

Because we're literally talking about a plot? By actual writers who write a story?? Using "plot" to describe the flow of continuity in the world doesn't magically make it a plot.

You can call a lot of things referring to any kind of continuity a "plot" in this case and then give someone who manipulates it Plot Manipulation.

Me about to write a book on the full History of the entire Universe (I now have Plot Manipulation)

 

[Dog3352]

again the plot of the world here could very easily just be a matter of immense reality warping or fate manipulation that non god entities in reality perceive as akin to having their plots manipulated but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of narrative transcendance at all.

It's not necessary to demonstrate metafictional transcendence, the mention of plot won't get thrown in the trash just because the Main God doesn't have some kind of book where he writes the plot. And look around for characters with a plot, there are several that have no demonstration of meta-fictional transcendence, and some that even resemble the manipulation of probability and even manipulation of destiny.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It's not necessary to demonstrate metafictional transcendence, the mention of plot won't get thrown in the trash just because the Main God doesn't have some kind of book where he writes the plot. And look around for characters with a plot, there are several that have no demonstration of meta-fictional transcendence, and some that even resemble the manipulation of probability and even manipulation of destiny.

I feel like something is being missed in translation here. Plot manipulation is an extremely specific type of hax. Again, it would be extremely easy for say a God that can manipulate reality to appear to someone within the reality being manipulated as plot manipulation but that doesn't mean that it is. I don't see any evidence here of the verse functioning under a meta-narrative type structure, the reason this is important is because to manipulate the plot of a narrative is to perceive it from a higher ontology which we already know doesn't exist in verse, Gods don't literally reside in a higher plane.

 

[Fixxed]

im sorry I can't understand your comment my apologies.

Just want hear how you describe the plot

Because we're literally talking about a plot? By actual writers who write a story?? Using "plot" to describe the flow of continuity in the world doesn't magically make it a plot.

You can call a lot of things referring to any kind of continuity a "plot" in this case and then give someone who manipulates it Plot Manipulation.

Me about to write a book on the full History of the entire Universe (I now have Plot Manipulation)

Dont tell me you describe plot is being manipulate the verse's plot it self

And why plot is just about write a book???

 

[Fixxed]

the reason this is important is because to manipulate the plot of a narrative is to perceive it from a higher ontology which we already know doesn't exist in verse, Gods don't literally reside in a higher plane.

What??? Where you found that???
so you mean you must higher existance to have plot manipulation???

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Just want hear how you describe the plot

Dont tell me you describe plot is being manipulate the verse's plot it self

And why plot is just about write a book???

sorry again I trying to figure out what you're trying to say here but I cant

 

[Blackcurrant91]

What??? Where you found that???
so you mean you must higher existance to have plot manipulation???

No not yourself but plot manipulation implies that there is a narrative that the plot views as fiction which implies there is a higher ontology of sorts.

 

[Fixxed]

sorry again I trying to figure out what you're trying to say here but I cant

Just explain the plot manipulation

 

[Dog3352]

I feel like something is being missed in translation here. Plot manipulation is an extremely specific type of hax. Again, it would be extremely easy for say a God that can manipulate reality to appear to someone within the reality being manipulated as plot manipulation but that doesn't mean that it is. I don't see any evidence here of the verse functioning under a meta-narrative type structure, the reason this is important is because to manipulate the plot of a narrative is to perceive it from a higher ontology which we already know doesn't exist in verse, Gods don't literally reside in a higher plane.

You are basically saying that plot manipulation can only be obtained if the character shows metafictional transcendence, you should say this to vs battle admins, I bet a lot of characters would lose their plot manipulation if they needed meta-transcendence fictional.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

You are basically saying that plot manipulation can only be obtained if the character shows metafictional transcendence, you should say this to vs battle admins, I bet a lot of characters would lose their plot manipulation if they needed meta-transcendence fictional.

Not characters specifically. The actual verse itself needs evidence of there being a narrative that the plot views as fictional.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

The reason Arale for instance has plot manipulation is because she knows she is a character in a manga

 

[Dog3352]

Not characters specifically. The actual verse itself needs evidence of there being a narrative that the plot views as fictional.

Basically the same thing, and again, I don't need a demonstration where the person with the skill sees the plot as fiction, as I said earlier, several characters have plot manipulation without demonstrations of seeing the plot as fiction.

 

[Naito-desu]

Also nice that what-aboutism is an existing argument for plot manipulation "other characters might have questionable justification for their Plot Manipulation so that's why we should allow this one". That's something meant for others to scrutinize and revise, what we're discussing here is Anos specifically, and why I think he shouldn't gain this power. It doesn't mean I disagree with the fact that other characters shouldn't have it either.

 

[Fixxed]

No not yourself but plot manipulation implies that there is a narrative that the plot views as fiction which implies there is a higher ontology of sorts.

Yeah it mean you must have higher existance to have plot manipulation
Views as fiction is mean higher existance (unless it mean other)

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Basically the same thing, and again, I don't need a demonstration where the person with the skill sees the plot as fiction, as I said earlier, several characters have plot manipulation without demonstrations of seeing the plot as fiction.

This is a pretty poor argument, this isn't a CRT about other verses.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah it mean you must have higher existance to have plot manipulation
Views as fiction is mean higher existance (unless it mean other)

No the verse needs to have an established narrative structure that the plot can even view as fictional which implies a higher ontological plane.

 

[Dog3352]

Not characters specifically. The actual verse itself needs evidence of there being a narrative that the plot views as fictional.

And by the way, all the Gods of Maou Gakuin are existentially superior to the living beings existing in the militia world, why do you think they have a higher-dimensional existence?

 

[Dog3352]

Main God higher dimensional existence>>>>> other Gods higher-dimensional existence>>>>>>Guardians (I don't know if they have higher dimensional exist-nce)>>>>>Other beings in the world.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Main God higher dimensional existence>>>>> other Gods higher-dimensional existence>>>>>>Guardians (I don't know if they have higher dimensional exist-nce)>>>>>Other beings in the world.

This is not really helping anything at all.

 

[Dog3352]

This is not really helping anything at all.

no and to help

 

[Fixxed]

No the verse needs to have an established narrative structure that the plot can even view as fictional which implies a higher ontological plane.

What bruh??? I dont even understand what you talking about
In this you says "the plot can even view as fictional"
What??? The plot view as fictional??? Wh...what??

If you says the plot view the reality as fictional i can understand but the plot can even view as fictional??? What??

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Call it whatever you ******* want, it does not matter. You are assuming that because Order is 1. a script/plot (which, may I remind you, are terms that have MANY different definitions), and 2. beyond what can be affected by normal fate manipulation, it is by definition plot manipulation. Which as I and several others keep telling you, is not something we assume by default.

Still don't see a single scans to back you up with your headcanon

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's really not considering Anos stans behavior in this thread+every upgrade thread.

If you don't have anything to contribute here. Buzz off. Next time you derail like this I am gonna report you that's all.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Still don't see a single scans to back you up with your headcanon

I uh

Never made a claim that requires evidence. I am telling you there are multiple interpretations of the scans you are providing, where things can be taken as metaphorical or words have multiple definitions. I am asking you the prove that these scans are 1. literal representations of the setting (as in, the world being a play is literal and not just a metaphor used to explain something else) and 2. that the words plot and script are used SPECIFICALLY in the context of storytelling.

You have given evidence for neither. I never said I had evidence that disproved you. I don't. The entire time, my issues has been your lack of evidence.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I uh

Never made a claim that requires evidence.

Ok then I will take whatever you said as headcanon

I am telling you there are multiple interpretations of the scans you are providing, where things can be taken as metaphorical or words have multiple definitions.

Yeah show mean scans where it implied to be only fate

I am asking you the prove that these scans are 1. literal representations of the setting (as in, the world being a play is literal and not just a metaphor used to explain something else) and 2. that the words plot and script are used SPECIFICALLY in the context of storytelling.

Still don't see any good refute from you at least accept like @Everything12 well staff is staff he acted like a real man and accepted how we see the plot thing here. Also funny even though he disagreed he didn't tried to make any headcanon

You have given evidence for neither. I never said I had evidence that disproved you. I don't. The entire time, my issues has been your lack of evidence.

Nothing lacks except for what you implied is headcanon.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ok then I will take whatever you said as headcanon

Yeah show mean scans where it implied to be only fate

Still don't see any good refute from you at least accept like @Everything12 well staff is staff he acted like a real man and accepted how we see the plot thing here. Also funny even though he disagreed he didn't tried to make any headcanon

Nothing lacks except for what you implied is headcanon.

Jesus Christ you're ******* exhausting to deal with.

Thread's basically been rejected by staff, stay mad about it. I'm tired of this circular arguing, I'm outta here.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

魔王学院の不適合者　～史上最強の魔王の始祖、転生して子孫たちの学校へ通う～ - もしも世界が平和なら

男主人公 魔王 西洋 学園 中世 チート 魔法 主人公最強 コメディ要素 R15 残酷な描写あり

ncode.syosetu.com

　

---

Is it something to do with my birth?
　Or is it something else entirely?

"It takes a lot of power to erase the existence of a 2,000-year-old demon tribe and replace it with a new one. It is possible that my father is Celis, but that he has falsified the past and changed only his tone of voice."

"In that case, why would he do that?"

---

Even Graham's (Misfit) has replaced the past with a new past like how plot manipulation works people really asking if Eques manipulate plot. Really funny ha ha.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Jesus Christ you're ******* exhausting to deal with.

Thread's basically been rejected by staff, stay mad about it. I'm tired of this circular arguing, I'm outta here.

I accept your Concession. Also you better don't come with some headcanon next time.

 

[wwereymy235]

Jeez no need to be so aggressive. I get that it can be annoying explaining things over and over again but if you keep acting like that, staff members may not want to view maou CRTs in the future. Overall though, I do agree for the plot manipulation.

 

[Fixxed]

I am asking you the prove that these scans are 1. literal representations of the setting (as in, the world being a play is literal and not just a metaphor used to explain something else) and 2. that the words plot and script are used SPECIFICALLY in the context of storytelling.

Oh my Good Lord. I again and again and again and again, saying DONT SEPERATE THE THEATER THINGS AND THE SCRIPT THINGS, THATS WHY YOU MISS EVERYTHING WHAT WE MEAN

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Possible Uses of Plot Manipulation

---

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).

---

"Do you think you have the upper hand? Thy power is swayed and swayed by thy surroundings. It means that you are ruled by order. And it is I who rule that order."

　The magic power gathers in Eques' entire body.

"You take from this three-sided world, the Garden of the Demon King, the order that gives you your power."

　The gears of the assembled gods fill the air with a copper-colored radiance.

"Behold, Foreign object to the world. The wheels of destiny have already begun to turn. No one can escape it. Vertexfenbrem enforces a single destiny upon thee."

　The Wheel of Destiny scatters a brown light.

"Defeat."

　The copper gear is embedded everywhere in the three-sided world.

　In the sky, on the surface of the earth, in cities of ice, in forests, in mountains, everywhere, the wheels of destiny began to turn.

"If you make a single move, the entire three-sided world of the Garden of the Demon King will shatter into fragments, as will the entire order of creation. That is the Destiny that Vertex Fenbrem has just decreed, a Destiny that cannot be escaped and cannot be overturned."

　An foreign order envelops me.

---

• Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.

---

Is it something to do with my birth?
　Or is it something else entirely?

"It takes a lot of power to erase the existence of a 2,000-year-old demon tribe and replace it with a new one. It is possible that my father is Celis, but that he has falsified the past and changed only his tone of voice."

"In that case, why would he do that?"

---

"There is order in the bubble world, and there are gods. They have the seeds of world will to lead the world in one direction. The seeds of world will is invisible and does not have a clear consciousness. The gods obey it, and each of them acts in a vague way, trying to lead the world to the right order. In most cases, they fail, but in bubbles blessed with the blessing of Silver Sea, a conformist is born."
In the Militia world, the gears of Eques were the seeds of world will."

---

One direction only one who can lead is chief god where we can see people Manipulating the fate but couldn't change what Equed was doing

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Jeez no need to be so aggressive. I get that it can be annoying explaining things over and over again but if you keep acting like that, staff members may not want to view maou CRTs in the future. Overall though, I do agree for the plot manipulation.

You can see who is actually aggressive here

Jesus Christ you're ******* exhausting to deal with.

Thread's basically been rejected by staff, stay mad about it. I'm tired of this circular arguing, I'm outta here.

LMAO this is way better comeback than making headcanon it seems

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm on the same stance as Everything12. Not telling that the MG's supporters is entirely wrong in their interpretations but Imo this is not enough for Plot Manipulation, need more and deeper meaning evidences, this possibly will be all from me

 

[YoPercy]

Thread's basically been rejected by staff

???

 

[Ss3micah]

I dont mean to interrupt nor derail here but this is just a message from an average member reminding all of you who are posting escalatory comments and profanity to PLEASE KEEP THINGS CIVIL!!!

 

[WarbleComeBack]

PLEASE KEEP THINGS CIVIL!!!

People trynna keep things civil
vs the thread:

 

[Theglassman12]

@EldemadeDityjon not a single thing you've quoted here remotely proves plot hax whatsoever, this is just more fate hax, not plot hax.

@Dog3352 which you guys have failed to give any solid evidence that this is actual plot hax and not just more fate hax for order, so saying "once it's accepted" means jack shit here since I can easily say "once this is rejected no one's going to agree with this idea". So actually argue about the now, instead of what might happen.

Did you bother clicking on the link I sent where the kanji for plot also has "plan and scheme" in it? Because that's my proof that there's multiple meanings, which again goes back to my point. Prove that they literally mean the script/narrative being controlled. Prove to me that the order is treated like an actual storyboard the gods can rewrite on a whim, prove that they can control a literal theater that has some control over the entire world. If you cannot give these blatant examples to prove your point and just keep speculating then this isn't going to be accepted, simple as that.

@Tatsumi504 Literally just stronger fate hax, it's really not that hard to understand what "fate hax that's stronger than normal fate hax" means here.

No you literally did not have to scream, it does not help you in any way shape or form in any other debate you'll ever be in if you just blow up and scream at anyone. Being stressed from repeated arguments is one thing, literally screaming at everyone because of some disagreements is a completely different thing and will not let any neutral party side with you, because it makes you look immature when any discussion occurs. If you blow up and yell at someone just because they disagree, I will give you a warning. Is that clear?

Ok I'm convinced you do not understand what "Argument from Incredulity" even means here. My arguments are not in any way shape or form was "I can't believe they would have these abilities so I disagree", it's "I do not see plot hax here because nothing about this remotely implies plot hax". Before you start claiming I'm making fallacies here, double check what the hell you're trying to accuse me of, because it does not help your side when you're throwing baseless accusations at others instead of providing the evidence needed for these abilities to pass. So once again, can you remotely debunk the point I made on how "plot" has numerous meanings with the kanji here? Because that's a massive hole in your argument right now.

No I wouldn't lash out or go mad, I'd just take a break at best, or just calmly explain my frustration why no one has gone over the arguments I've provided. You really need to broaden your horizon since there's a lot more than just being angry.

@Fixxed That doesn't answer my question, nothing about your comment answered anything I've asked. You haven't given me solid evidence that these are tangible things that exist in MG, you haven't proven that they literally control these actual scripts and theatres with Order itself. Give me actual evidence of this instead of trying to interpret it one way, because the kanji/translation can interpret it as another.

@Blackcurrant91 dude I get you're frustrated with some MG stuff, but please for the love of god be civil about this? Stop trying to provoke the fans and focus on the discussion at hand please?

 

[WarbleComeBack]

@EldemadeDityjon not a single thing you've quoted here remotely proves plot hax whatsoever, this is just more fate hax, not plot hax.

Calling order just fate hax is just wrong. Hurts to see.

 

[Theglassman12]

Your scans tells us otherwise because it all just sounds like fate hax. Not my fault the series didn't do a good job of making Order not related to fate.

 

[Shmooply]

I share the same sentiment as @Everything12, it sounds more like the characters talking about a plan or something similar, so count me in as disagreeing with the OP.