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Yeah, only True Resets generate a new timelineRicsi-viragosi said:
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Undertale verse is just 2-B, not 2-C
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
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Also, just realized Toriel implied that all human children that fell down had save and load. (When humans fall down here, strangely... I... I often fell like I know them.)
So that's a thing too, I guess. (Makes sense, a part of their soul was enough to give Flowey the same ability, so they just probably gave up after being beaten over and over by Asgore.)
As for the rating, the low-end for it right now is the total amount of endings for Frisk. How many endings Flowey, a non-human can achieve, is unknownn (as is the fact of when he resets or when he doesn't), so we only say that it's more than all endings. For the 2-B, it's an unknown number (since nothing stops the player from just repeating the same things over and over. In-fact, Sans giving you his keys, calling you a freak and Chara not understanding you and Flowey telling you about his problems with Sans rely on that).
So that's a thing too, I guess. (Makes sense, a part of their soul was enough to give Flowey the same ability, so they just probably gave up after being beaten over and over by Asgore.)
As for the rating, the low-end for it right now is the total amount of endings for Frisk. How many endings Flowey, a non-human can achieve, is unknownn (as is the fact of when he resets or when he doesn't), so we only say that it's more than all endings. For the 2-B, it's an unknown number (since nothing stops the player from just repeating the same things over and over. In-fact, Sans giving you his keys, calling you a freak and Chara not understanding you and Flowey telling you about his problems with Sans rely on that).
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Can't we just make 2-C with 103 timelines at this point?
100 for the FUN Value, and 3 for the Deltarune timelines
100 for the FUN Value, and 3 for the Deltarune timelines
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@Strym That possibility count you did isn't right and I already corrected it earlier in my recalculation.
@Ricsi When Sans explains about the timelines stopping and starting again, it means that you're starting a new type of route due to shifting into the neutral, pacifist or genocide route, depending on the actions you choose to make in the current timeline you're in.
@Lord JJJ Oh, I think I get it now.
If you decide to spare Sans, he "agrees" with it at first but ends up backstabbing you. If you decide to not spare him, then the fight continues and you can't be able to spare him again, which also would have created alternate timelines that way as well since deciding to spare or kill creates 2 different possibilities.
This can happen up to 13 times through resets with up to 26 alternate outcomes that could potentially be created (13 times of you deciding to kill him and 13 times you decide to spare him).
@Ricsi When Sans explains about the timelines stopping and starting again, it means that you're starting a new type of route due to shifting into the neutral, pacifist or genocide route, depending on the actions you choose to make in the current timeline you're in.
@Lord JJJ Oh, I think I get it now.
If you decide to spare Sans, he "agrees" with it at first but ends up backstabbing you. If you decide to not spare him, then the fight continues and you can't be able to spare him again, which also would have created alternate timelines that way as well since deciding to spare or kill creates 2 different possibilities.
This can happen up to 13 times through resets with up to 26 alternate outcomes that could potentially be created (13 times of you deciding to kill him and 13 times you decide to spare him).
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You think it means that, much like some people think that Karma relies on level of violence.
The statement that time lines are jumping left and right, stopping and starting gives far too much room for interpretation to make a claim like that. I think it just makes ans that save and load and time manipulation in general is making them act abnormally.
Some people that like to point at the player being acknowledged multiple times (and Flowey calling the player's chosen name can be him just using the name you thought you chose for yourself, not him saying Chara is the abomaly) can say that time lines starting and stopping can be the game being closed and opened, jumping left and right is saving and loading, and "everything ends" is either Asriel or Chara, or just true resets, or the game being deleted.
Way too open to interpretation, is what I am saying.
The statement that time lines are jumping left and right, stopping and starting gives far too much room for interpretation to make a claim like that. I think it just makes ans that save and load and time manipulation in general is making them act abnormally.
Some people that like to point at the player being acknowledged multiple times (and Flowey calling the player's chosen name can be him just using the name you thought you chose for yourself, not him saying Chara is the abomaly) can say that time lines starting and stopping can be the game being closed and opened, jumping left and right is saving and loading, and "everything ends" is either Asriel or Chara, or just true resets, or the game being deleted.
Way too open to interpretation, is what I am saying.
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@Ricsi The main point I'm explaining is that killing or sparing are the main factors here as that's what causes the current timeline to split into 2 alternate timelines, causing Frisk to shift to either one of the 3 routes and the reason behind why some timelines stops and some of them start.
True Reset is only available in one route, which strongly means that each route is it's own timeline and so as each ending & resets that are based on whether you kill or spare the monsters around you in the current route you're in.
This leads to splitting the current timeline into multiple alternate timelines represented as endings and you can only choose 1 out of the 2 depending on the choices you choose.
True Reset is only available in one route, which strongly means that each route is it's own timeline and so as each ending & resets that are based on whether you kill or spare the monsters around you in the current route you're in.
This leads to splitting the current timeline into multiple alternate timelines represented as endings and you can only choose 1 out of the 2 depending on the choices you choose.
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I get what you are saying.
I just don't believe it. That is your personal headcanon, with no dialogue directly stating that. Anything you tried to quote for that this far can be interpreted to mean things other than that.
And when there isn't a clear answer to which answer is correct, we aren't going to take the one that makes the characters thousands to millions of times stronger.
Chara's destruction also counts as a true reset. And no, true reset doesn't mean that at all, anyone presented with the concept (reset puts your character at the start of their journey but some characters remember stuff, a true reset is like a factory reset) wouldn't assume that. Not to go full accusatory, but using that interpretation is only possible with confirmation bias.
Here's the thing for True Reset though, it's achieved two times in-game. One is when you become so powerful that Asriel, who would have destroyed and recreated everything, can't put you down and has loosely equal determination. The other time is done by Chara, who is powerful enough to destroy all timelines... and can recreate them. I'd say that the common factor here is having so much power that destroying and recreating all time lines is possible.
Anyways, I will stop commenting here. Undertale threads always go in circles forever. You have failed to give any substantial proof this far, so I doubt you will from now on. I am against this upgrade because it is based on far too many baseless assumptions.
I just don't believe it. That is your personal headcanon, with no dialogue directly stating that. Anything you tried to quote for that this far can be interpreted to mean things other than that.
And when there isn't a clear answer to which answer is correct, we aren't going to take the one that makes the characters thousands to millions of times stronger.
Chara's destruction also counts as a true reset. And no, true reset doesn't mean that at all, anyone presented with the concept (reset puts your character at the start of their journey but some characters remember stuff, a true reset is like a factory reset) wouldn't assume that. Not to go full accusatory, but using that interpretation is only possible with confirmation bias.
Here's the thing for True Reset though, it's achieved two times in-game. One is when you become so powerful that Asriel, who would have destroyed and recreated everything, can't put you down and has loosely equal determination. The other time is done by Chara, who is powerful enough to destroy all timelines... and can recreate them. I'd say that the common factor here is having so much power that destroying and recreating all time lines is possible.
Anyways, I will stop commenting here. Undertale threads always go in circles forever. You have failed to give any substantial proof this far, so I doubt you will from now on. I am against this upgrade because it is based on far too many baseless assumptions.
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@Ricsi Sans is aware of Frisk's method of time travel and he knows how it works, what it can do and the knowledge of other versions of himself. There's no headcanon about something a character in game confirmed and has made that self-explanatory several times by now.
Chara's destruction isn't what causes the true reset, you giving your soul to them and they used it to use the True Reset is what does (exactly what Post-Genocide just did when you reached that point of the game). This is exactly what Asriel is talking about on how he wouldn't use the true reset because he knows that you will do it since only you have the power to use it (exactly what he said in his in-game dialogue).
You have not provided any actual proof that these characters never said this in-game (I could literally provide you dialogues of them saying this at anytime, so disagreeing with this is pointless), so the Burden of Proof is still on you.
Chara's destruction isn't what causes the true reset, you giving your soul to them and they used it to use the True Reset is what does (exactly what Post-Genocide just did when you reached that point of the game). This is exactly what Asriel is talking about on how he wouldn't use the true reset because he knows that you will do it since only you have the power to use it (exactly what he said in his in-game dialogue).
You have not provided any actual proof that these characters never said this in-game (I could literally provide you dialogues of them saying this at anytime, so disagreeing with this is pointless), so the Burden of Proof is still on you.
ShockingPsychic
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I agree with this. Seems solid enough.
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agreed FRA
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Which one?Magi Hussie said:
EDIT: Since I seriously don't understand shit at this point, won't you make a blog instead, so anyone's good?
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@Strym I'm referring to this:
"did it and I got 137'403 timelines"
It doesn't sound right, which I mentioned to you earlier.
"did it and I got 137'403 timelines"
It doesn't sound right, which I mentioned to you earlier.
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Uhm, ok, then make a blog and link it if mine is always wrong, so we'll use that and everyone's goodMagi Hussie said:
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@Strym I'll post the corrections for you here, I'm about to edit this again to add information for Frisk in a few mins.
Timelines created from Flowey Here (<- there's a link for this) he stated what he did:
Now, about killing everyone and sparing everyone, we haven't found any provided evidence for Flowey doing the Neutral Endings that Frisk did, so we'll lowball and make just 2 possibilities (Pacifist Route and Genocide Route).
Now the games, the most important thing is that there aren't just games with a possibility of winning and a possibility of losing, but there are:
There are also 100 possibilities too with the FUN value (<- this one also has a link)
Since Flowey implied that he did any single combination, I assume that he combined all these possibilities together, so I'll multiply all of them.
Total number of possibilities (Without the books):
Total number of possibilities (With the books):
Since we have the PC version, the PS4 & PS Vita version, and the Nintendo Switch Version, due to fundamental differences that these versions have between them, we'll triple the amount:
Copy only the corrections to the Frisk section:
Remember, PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch Version are 2 extra parallel timelines due to the fact as shown in PS4 & PS Vita Version, this version has the game exclusive Dog Shrine whereas the Nintendo Switch version, the dog shrine is destroyed and Mad Mew Mew replaces Mad Dummy in the game, so the total number would be tripled but we have to exclude the Dirty Hacker Ending from both the PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch version as its impossible to get these endings from those platforms.
The total amount for the Nintendo Switch version is the same as the PS4 & PS Vita, so it gets multiplied by 2 and then added to the total of the PC Version.
In total:
As for Deltarune, Deltarune is confirmed to be in the same multiverse of Undertale's, and there are 3 SAVE files/timelines in total (2-C) but however, we don't have direct confirmation that it's part of the Undertale multiverse just yet, so the timeline count from Deltarune remains separate until proven otherwise.
Total number of timelines:
Timelines created from Flowey Here (<- there's a link for this) he stated what he did:
- He burned every book and read every book
- Killed everyone and spared everyone
- Won every game and lost every game
Now, about killing everyone and sparing everyone, we haven't found any provided evidence for Flowey doing the Neutral Endings that Frisk did, so we'll lowball and make just 2 possibilities (Pacifist Route and Genocide Route).
Now the games, the most important thing is that there aren't just games with a possibility of winning and a possibility of losing, but there are:
- The Ball Game
- The Quiz Show
- The First Floor Door Puzzle
- The MTT News
- The Third Floor Door Puzzle
There are also 100 possibilities too with the FUN value (<- this one also has a link)
Since Flowey implied that he did any single combination, I assume that he combined all these possibilities together, so I'll multiply all of them.
Total number of possibilities (Without the books):
- (Monster Possibilities) * (Game possibilities) * (FUN value possibilities) = 2 * 8 * 100 = 1,600
Total number of possibilities (With the books):
- (Book Possibilities) * (Monster Possibilities) * (Game possibilities) * (FUN value possibilities) = 2 * 2 * 8 * 100 = 3,200
Since we have the PC version, the PS4 & PS Vita version, and the Nintendo Switch Version, due to fundamental differences that these versions have between them, we'll triple the amount:
- 1,600 * 3 = 4,800 (Low-End for all versions)
- 3,200 * 3 = 9,600 (High-End for all versions)
Copy only the corrections to the Frisk section:
- 4 Hard Mode Endings
- 85 Alternate Neutral Endings (4 of the alternate Endings were already mentioned and the 4 Hard Mode Endings do not include Fun Values)
- Being soulless doubles this amount because you were never originally soulless in these Neutral Endings + you get extra dialogue from Flowey when you're soulless too
- 26 Alternate Timelines created through Frisk's 13 reloads of them reseting the timeline (The process of doing this involves deciding whether to spare or kill Sans due to Sans mentioning that other Sans-es exist, which strongly implies that this was the cause of that)
- 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + (85 × 2) + 1 + 2 + 4 = 188 (Number of Timelines/Endings without including Frisk's 13 reloads of reseting the timeline)
- 188 + 26 = 214 (Total number of timelines/endings without FUN values)
- 210 × 100 (Fun values, changes in each route you do) = 21000 + 4 (Hard Mode doesn't include Fun values, which must be separated from the total) = 21,004
Remember, PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch Version are 2 extra parallel timelines due to the fact as shown in PS4 & PS Vita Version, this version has the game exclusive Dog Shrine whereas the Nintendo Switch version, the dog shrine is destroyed and Mad Mew Mew replaces Mad Dummy in the game, so the total number would be tripled but we have to exclude the Dirty Hacker Ending from both the PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch version as its impossible to get these endings from those platforms.
The total amount for the Nintendo Switch version is the same as the PS4 & PS Vita, so it gets multiplied by 2 and then added to the total of the PC Version.
In total:
- 209 × 100 = 20900 + 4 = 20900
- (20900×2) + 21,004 = 41,800 + 21,004 = 62,804
As for Deltarune, Deltarune is confirmed to be in the same multiverse of Undertale's, and there are 3 SAVE files/timelines in total (2-C) but however, we don't have direct confirmation that it's part of the Undertale multiverse just yet, so the timeline count from Deltarune remains separate until proven otherwise.
Total number of timelines:
- Flowey's timelines/endings created from a combination of possibilities: 4,800 (Low-End) to 9,600 (High-End)
- Frisk's timelines/endings + other timelines: 62,804
- Flowey's timelines (4,800) + Frisk timelines/endings & other timelines (62,804) = 4,800 + 62,804 = 67,604 total timelines/endings (2-B)
- Flowey's timelines (9,200) + Frisk timelines/endings & other timelines (62,804) = 9,200 + 62,804 = 72,004 total timelines/endings (2-B)
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- Thread starter
- #177
Can't you make a blog, to make it easier, you're the one who made this calc after all
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@Strym Oh that reminds me, I need to add the gaster follower statements along with the Fun Values too.
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@Strym Okay hold on.
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@StrymULTRA The blog is done: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Magi_Hussie/Undertale's_Cosmology
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Coll, I'd suggest to add "cosmology blogs" in the categories too
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@Strym Added category and add me to the list of "Agree."
Okay, since the majority is in our favor and there's enough valid evidence on supporting the upgrade, then it's safe to say that this can be added on the Undertale page.
Okay, since the majority is in our favor and there's enough valid evidence on supporting the upgrade, then it's safe to say that this can be added on the Undertale page.
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Uhm, we should decide which end apply first, otherwise we can't.
Take the Hig End for the reasons I've said in the comment
Take the Hig End for the reasons I've said in the comment
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This is... difficult to evaluate, I must admit.
Given that even low-end estimates for how many timelines there were already push into the 2-B range, I'm almost inclined to give this a weak agreement. But honestly, I'm still uncertain.
The problem is that we're still making assumptions in whatever calc we make to try and figure this out. We can point at "this is how it should be interpreted" all we like; it's still interpretation rather than explicit statements.
The current rating is already "2-C, likely 2-B". Meaning that the rating already admits "it's quite likely that there is more than 1000 timelines", which is honestly probably the safest way to evaluate this kind of statistic.
Even so, the lowest end calcs mentioned above still push it pretty damn far into 2-B, even with the limited amount of information given. It'd feel wrong to just completely ignore that when even conservative estimates push it into 2-B.
So, TL;DR: I think "2-C, likely 2-B" is probably the safest option, and the one that's already in use. But the calcs above seem both reasonable and conservative with the given information. As such, I'm inclined to just consider myself neutral on the upgrade.
Given that even low-end estimates for how many timelines there were already push into the 2-B range, I'm almost inclined to give this a weak agreement. But honestly, I'm still uncertain.
The problem is that we're still making assumptions in whatever calc we make to try and figure this out. We can point at "this is how it should be interpreted" all we like; it's still interpretation rather than explicit statements.
The current rating is already "2-C, likely 2-B". Meaning that the rating already admits "it's quite likely that there is more than 1000 timelines", which is honestly probably the safest way to evaluate this kind of statistic.
Even so, the lowest end calcs mentioned above still push it pretty damn far into 2-B, even with the limited amount of information given. It'd feel wrong to just completely ignore that when even conservative estimates push it into 2-B.
So, TL;DR: I think "2-C, likely 2-B" is probably the safest option, and the one that's already in use. But the calcs above seem both reasonable and conservative with the given information. As such, I'm inclined to just consider myself neutral on the upgrade.
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@Strym Either one we choose gives us a 2-B number of timelines regardless, so I'll choose the high-end.
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@DarkGrath I mean that's what the evidence which backs up these interpretations are for.
Also, that's what we usually do for several different verses, we mention strong interpretations from the dialogues that the characters mention and then we back it up with enough evidence that verifies and makes them valid.
Also, that's what we usually do for several different verses, we mention strong interpretations from the dialogues that the characters mention and then we back it up with enough evidence that verifies and makes them valid.
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Delete the Low End thenMagi Hussie said:
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@Strym Its removed and the blog is updated with new sources backing up the statements.
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Is this counted or naw?
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@Ricardo Wdym?
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Bump
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There are no limits to how much you can reset, strongly suggesting 2-A.
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Well, the fact that there's no limit suggests that there is at least enough space for infinite.
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Are you serious?The God Of Procrastination said:
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Mostly.
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?
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Something increasing non-stop, endlessly, would still only be 2-B. Because no matter how many times it happens, since it starts as a finite number and increases at a finite rate, it will never be infinite. So, no, that's not evidence for 2-A at all.
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This was pretty much what I was getting at with ad infinitum as my joke. Something going to infinity Ôëá infinity (especially if time isn't infinite).
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