Undertale upgrades/downgrades

[Verivici]

It is stated on several pages that Undertale stats can be used as powerscaling. This is false, as ingame stats don't correspond linarly with character power.

By that logic, Chara shouldn't be Low 2-C since she "only" did something like 9999999999 damage to mountain level enemies.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Stats are clearly not linear, but they do give us a vague idea of where characters stand.

Also, remember, Chara killed everyone incredibly casually without trying, and did something like 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 damage to the timeline just from hitting it.

 

[Squid_peanut]

it's less "this amount of attack corilates to this amount of force" and more " this reliable analyzer is gauging the abilities of this individual as higher than another individual that we roughly know the capabilities of."

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

it's less "this amount of attack corilates to this amount of force" and more " this reliable analyzer is gauging the abilities of this individual as higher than another individual that we roughly know the capabilities of."

Pretty much this.

 

[CyberGhost42]

Instead of making a new topic I'm going to post this here.

Papyrus should have his speed downgraded.

At the moment his speed is "Speed: Relativistic+ (Capable of keeping up with Frisk in combat)" which is all fine and dandy, except he doesn't keep up with Frisk.

In a Bad Time run he dies with one hit, which isn't keeping up.

Papyrus also doesn't keep up in a pacifist/neutral run, the start of the battle Frisk needs to actively move into his attacks to be hit, and after the blue attack Frisk's movement is restricted so this shouldn't be used to powerscale.

Even when blue Frisk usually only takes damage due to bad timing, getting caught on a wall or being caught off guard (just after the blue attack when playing for the first time for example). Even the above examples Frisk gets hit not due to Papyrus's speed but rather player awareness. Though awareness is subjective as it is based on players.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Instead of making a new topic I'm going to post this here.
Papyrus should have his speed downgraded.

At the moment his speed is "Speed: Relativistic+ (Capable of keeping up with Frisk in combat)" which is all fine and dandy, except he doesn't keep up with Frisk.

In a Bad Time run he dies with one hit, which isn't keeping up.

Papyrus also doesn't keep up in a pacifist/neutral run, the start of the battle Frisk needs to actively move into his attacks to be hit, and after the blue attack Frisk's movement is restricted so this shouldn't be used to powerscale.

Even when blue Frisk usually only takes damage due to bad timing, getting caught on a wall or being caught off guard (just after the blue attack when playing for the first time for example). Even the above examples Frisk gets hit not due to Papyrus's speed but rather player awareness. Though awareness is subjective as it is based on players.

Except Papyrus does keep up with Frisk. He's a relatively easy boss, but that doesn't mean he's that weak, in game. Almost everyone dies in one-hit when Chara's in control. Mettaton NEO is vastly superior to Asgore, and he still goes down in one blow.

 

[CyberGhost42]

Claiming that no characters keep up with Frisk is not an argument thathe is able to keep up with Frisk.

My argument is focused on the Neutral route where Frisk doesn't even have to move to avoid Papyrus's attacks until Frisk's movement becomes restricted. Even if Papyrus could keep up, keeping up with a movement restricted character should not be scaled to keeping up with the same character as if they were unrestricted. This is like saying if a character can keep up with Tenchi Masaki's base form then they can keep up with Kami Tenchi.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Claiming that no characters keep up with Frisk is not an argument thathe is able to keep up with Frisk.
My argument is focused on the Neutral route where Frisk doesn't even have to move to avoid Papyrus's attacks until Frisk's movement becomes restricted. Even if Papyrus could keep up, keeping up with a movement restricted character should not be scaled to keeping up with the same character as if they were unrestricted. This is like saying a character can beat Tenchi Masaki's base form therefore they can beat Kami Tenchi.

No, that's like saying a character who can keep up with a caracter's base form is on par with that character's base form. I'm not arguing Papyrus is immeasurable, but that fighting against Frisk (even though Papyrus was holding back and didn't want to hurt Frisk) should mean he's at least somewhat comparable to Frisk's speed.

 

[CyberGhost42]

Except he couldn't damage Frisk's base form until he restricted Frisk's movement unless Frisk got in the way of his attacks.

As for him holding back, not showing a feat is not a reason to give that character a feat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except he couldn't damage Frisk's base form until he restricted Frisk's movement unless Frisk got in the way of his attacks.
As for him holding back, not showing a feat is not a reason to give that character a feat.

Except his blue attacks. Frisk had to stay still, but they still couldn't dodge them.

We know he was holding back, because he doesn't kill Frisk, but instead just puts them in his shed. There is no reason for him to be substantially slower than everyone else.

 

[CyberGhost42]

His blue attack couldn't be dodged partially because it is an aoe skill in a confined space.

As for everyone else, the only person whom has shown to be able to actually keep up with Frisk is Sans. Unless you expect a Moldsmal to be faster than the speed of sound.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

His blue attack couldn't be dodged partially because it is an aoe skill in a confined space.
As for everyone else, the only person whom has shown to be able to actually keep up with Frisk is Sans. Unless you expect a Moldsmal to be faster than the speed of sound.

Which Frisk still would have been able to dodge if they were as absurdly faster than Papyrus as you were suggesting. He'd have been moving in slow motion.

And Undyne. And Mettaton. And Asgore. And Toriel. etc. Also, as far as I'm aware, I never argued that basic enemies were comparable to Frisk (you can even check Tsunderplane's profile, who is listed nowhere NEAR as fast as Frisk), just important encounters that are guaranteed to happen and are portrayed as being legitimate threats.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I actually agree with cyber here Aza, we've already determined that determination can vary greatly moment to moment and that the only reason we can scale Undyne and Asgore to having higher speeds than what knight knight displayed and higher DC than what Tsunderplane displayed is because their mere pressence prompted more determination than normal. Papyrus does not or really anyone else who isn't Undyne, Asgore, or Toriel technically

 

[CyberGhost42]

And Temmie, Greater Dog, Lesser Dog, Muffet, Doggo.

Tsundreplane is literally the only character from Undertale on this Wiki that hasn't been scaled to relativistic+.

As for Legitimate threats, none are in Geno run and in pacifist, using your own argument, Frisk is holding back.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Papyrus does not or really anyone else who isn't Undyne, Asgore, or Toriel technically

Fairly certain Mettaton did, as Frisk's life was in significant peril, at the time.

However, this is about Papyrus, and my point is that not only should he be comparable to Undyne (by her own words), but that bumping him down significantly in speed would mean he would move in slow motion compared to every other main character (besides Alphys).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And Temmie, Greater Dog, Lesser Dog, Muffet, Doggo.
Tsundreplane is literally the only character from Undertale on this Wiki that hasn't been scaled to relativistic+.

As for Legitimate threats, none are in Geno run and in pacifist, using your own argument, Frisk is holding back.

Because everyone there was a legitimate threat that could have significantly harmed Frisk, as well as a set encounter (except Tem, who's only a possibility).

Like I said, because Tsunderplane is a mook.

There are plenty of legit threats in pacifist, what are you talking about? There are only two legit threats in genocide because:

A) It's Chara in control, not Frisk.

B) Chara has massive amounts of killing intent. Frisk does not.

 

[CyberGhost42]

Possible Geno spoilers.


That reminds me, Undyne's page says "Possible use of Determination", it's pretty much confirmed if you Check her during that battle. Granted it's also likely it's time limited as she starts to melt into something that looks like an amalgamate after the battle instead of turning into dust.

Volume warning on both links: https://youtu.be/9kfw0H4oM7I?t=2h39m20s https://youtu.be/9kfw0H4oM7I?t=4h7m15s

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hm...that is true. Should we just change it to "determination", then?

 

[CyberGhost42]

I said the chaarcters we're discussing aren't a threat in Geno run and for pacifist I used a mock of your argument, stating Frisk is holding back because he/she doesn't want to hurt the monsters like Chara.

As for Undyne, "Determination" in the Undying form, though I would mention a possible time limit as a weakness.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Frisk is holding back, though. In Undertale, holding back is something that legitimately decreases your maximum power. Killing intent being lethal is a canon thing.

True, though wasn't it only limited in her base form? She seemed incredibly stable in the Undying fight.

 

[Squid_peanut]

in genocide Chara never holds back but is just so un interested by random enemies they don't really even try.

also Aza, have you seen the two Undertale threads I started yesterday?

 

[CyberGhost42]

Exactly.

As for Determination, Undyne has only shown it in her base form to prevent herself from dying and reach her Undying form IIRC. At the end of the battle she melts into what looks like an Amalgamate before turning to dust. The deceased monsters that were injected with Determination and were stable for long enough for Alphys to tell people they would be coming home, before melting into the Amalgamates, the processes are close enough for them to be considered the same.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Squid

I have not. Can you link them?

@Cyber

This is true, but she only melts after Chara kills her, not mid-fight as regular Undyne does.

 

[Squid_peanut]

here's one and here's the other

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I will check them out.

 

[CyberGhost42]

Regular Undyne doesn't melt, her body splits apart until she pulls it back together with Determination. No monsters in Undertale melt except those known to have Determination to my knowledge, the game states monsters instantly turn to ash on death.

Undyne, in her second form, started to melt after the battle due to her Determination then died from the battle while she was melting.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Regular Undyne doesn't melt, her body splits apart until she pulls it back together with Determination. No monsters in Undertale melt except those known to have Determination to my knowledge, the game states monsters instantly turn to ash on death.
Undyne, in her second form, started to melt after the battle due to her Determination then died from the battle while she was melting.

immense amounts of Determination in a monster's body causes them to lose solidity very quickly, however determination on par with a human soul allows them to maintain a solid form.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Isn't second form Undyne just regular Undyne?

 

[LordXcano]

Doesn't Sans say he can dodge only because he's the only character that decided to move? I think that'd put a dent in X Character being able to keep up with Frisk.

 

[The_Everlasting]

He's the only character who bothers to try and not get hit, that's pretty different.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Doesn't Sans say he can dodge only because he's the only character that decided to move? I think that'd put a dent in X Character being able to keep up with Frisk.

From a gameplay perspective, yes. However, that's more him going meta and breaking the rules of reality than everyone else actually just standing in place.

 

[CyberGhost42]

immense amounts of Determination in a monster's body causes them to lose solidity very quickly, however determination on par with a human soul allows them to maintain a solid form.

If you're referring to Flowey, the flower body he uses is from the overworld. Or are you reffering to another?

Isn't second form Undyne just regular Undyne?

Considering the Determination in the second form gives her new armor, more defence, heals her wound, speeds her up, replaces her eye with a laser. Most likely no. She's the same person, but with a Determination upgrade.

 

[Squid_peanut]

@Cyber

I'm refering to Undyne as and really monsters in general since Undyne's determination in the neutral playthrough causes her to fall apart if she tries to revive multiple times, just like the amalgamates did. But UtU or monsters with actual human souls do not

 

[CyberGhost42]

Ah, I haven't seen her die in neutral until now. It looks more like the damage she took in the battle was causing her to fall apart like in Geno, but her Determination was enough to keep her together for a little longer.

In both cases she begins to melt at the end, looking more like an Amalgamate.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Speaking of the Amalgamates (who I am trying to make a profile for), does anyone have any idea what their durability should be? Leaning towards "Unknown", as they're shown to be immune to conventional means of harm.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I think they should have a simular durability to a soul, since all they are is determination forcing monsters to stay alive and their bodies can't maintain

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think they should have a simular durability to a soul, since all they are is determination forcing monsters to stay alive and their bodies can't maintai

As in a human soul?

Because their defense is listed at 9999, which is 10 times superior to Mettaton, and 100 times superior to Undyne the Undying.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I think they should have a simular durability to a soul, since all they are is determination forcing monsters to stay alive and their bodies can't maintai

As in a human soul?
Because their defense is listed at 9999, which is 10 times superior to Mettaton, and 100 times superior to Undyne the Undying.

well since they are each composed of multiple individuals that were given enough Determination to be compareable to human souls and that their bodies are sort of a non factor at this point, it could very well be soul level