Undertale: Minor LS downgrade and Asriel intelligence update

[StrymULTRA]

No he is not, he holds back

Again with this?

There is 0 evidence of him being stronger than them, the Royal Guards are already at 30 ATK, Papyrus is only 20. Not even Toriel, who massively holds back against Frisk, has 80 ATK/DEF in her CHECK, meaning that the CHECK stats show their full power than what they're using at the moment.

Undyne already scales to Flowey in her Undying form, I really don't see anything that'd scale Base Undyne to Flowey, especially since doing so would put Asgore and co at the same Tier as Papyrus

This sounds more argument from incredulity than anything ngl. Asgore would simply massively outscale the cast and that's it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

My issue is that Humans are the source of DT itself, they're different than Undyne and Flowey who instead have relatively small amounts of it, with their stats so being fixated on the little they have, while Humans instead can manipulate their power level depending on their DT.

Yeah, so basically Flowey’s fixated amount of DT > Undyne’s fixated amount of DT. So, again, why would Undyne downscale?

Yeah, basically implying that's only because of us if he is, as otherwise he couldn't. .

Otherwise he couldn’t get the souls, he already said that he killed everyone which includes Asgore. Again, his main deal with Asgore is souls.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This sounds more argument from incredulity than anything ngl. Asgore would simply massively outscale the cast and that's it.

There's literally nothing that scales Undyne to Flowey tho, Flowey barely even ever mentions Undyne.

Even with DT scaling, Flowey ends up being leagues ahead of even Undyne the Undying, cause unlike her lad actually remembers LOADs, so even that doesn't work

 

[StrymULTRA]

Even with DT scaling, Flowey ends up being leagues ahead of even Undyne the Undying, cause unlike her lad actually remembers LOADs, so even that doesn't work

Bruh you just debunked yourself.

Asgore > Flowey

And Undying > Asgore.

Remembering SAVEs means basically nothing, as Flowey almost one-shot a minimal DT Frisk, and only the latter can LOAD. So if you wanna talk about extends of DT usage, then let's not cherrypick.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No? DT scaling just doesn't work when we're talking about a physical Flower with DT and a monster with DT? Same reason why a human doesn't scale to a monster with a human SOUL?

Plus, REMEMBERING LOADs is the main thing here, the only people capable of doing so are Frisk and Flowey, so that obviously puts anyone other than these two below their DT threshold.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No? DT scaling just doesn't work when we're talking about a physical Flower with DT and a monster with DT? Same reason why humans don't scale to a monster with a human SOUL?

Humans don't scale because of Monsters having the property of exponentially increasing their power when they have a human SOUL, not because of Monsters gaining more DT.

Plus, REMEMBERING LOADs is the main thing here, the only people capable of doing so are Frisk and Flowey, so that obviously puts anyone other than these two below their DT threshold?

Asgore is DT-less, can't remember LOADs (he's only aware of them like Sans), yet he still beat the shit out of everyone but Frisk. Don't think that counts tbh.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Humans don't scale because of Monsters having the property of exponentially increasing their power when they have a human SOUL, not because of Monsters gaining more DT.

I'm like 99.9% sure it's because monsters are attuned to their SOUL, a.k.a can actually utilize it's DT (SOUL Power) to it's full potential?

Asgore is DT-less, can't remember LOADs (he's only aware of them like Sans), yet he still beat the shit out of everyone but Frisk. Don't think that counts tbh.

I think there was a discussion awhile ago about how Boss Monsters have dormant DT or something? Cause their SOULs persist after Death.

But, yes, Asgore is DT-less, why are we scaling Flowey, who's a boss monster, to Undyne? If DT isn't that relevant, what's the basis for the Flowey and Undyne scaling?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yeah honestly I don’t see how anyone would scale to Flowey’s feat besides, obviously, Flowey himself.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm like 99.9% sure it's because monsters are attuned to their SOUL, a.k.a can actually utilize it's DT (SOUL Power) to it's full potential?

Theory.

I think there was a discussion awhile ago about how Boss Monsters have dormant DT or something? Cause their SOULs persist after Death.

Theory (2).

But, yes, Asgore is DT-less, why are we scaling Flowey, who's a boss monster, to Undyne? If DT isn't that relevant, what's the basis for the Flowey and Undyne scaling?

Mostly because of narrative I suppose. Flowey isn't potrayed as absurdly powerful and saying him and Undyne are at extremely different levels of power is kinda foolish for anyone tbh. Hence why I am trying to use this as a way to support this kind of scaling, even though I know it's iffy.

Flowey's true power level in relation to the monsters is vague? Definitely yes. But I think it's possible enough to warrant at least a "possible" rating, given that it doesn't even have much contradictions unlike the Amalgamates and Monsters with SOULs, who at least have an explanation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah honestly I don’t see how anyone would scale to Flowey’s feat besides, obviously, Flowey himself.

At least Small Building level (Has an ATK rating of 80, making him one of the strongest monsters in the Underground, thus being significantly stronger than Undyne to the point that she considers killing Frisk to be mercy compared to what Asgore could do to them. He is a Boss Monster, the strongest type of all monsters. Far more powerful than Flowey, who even with higher amounts of LV, could have never make it past Asgore without Frisk injuring him first)

This on Asgore's profile. You have to make a CRT to cover that, as it's accepted otherwise.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mostly because of narrative I suppose. Flowey isn't potrayed as absurdly powerful and saying him and Undyne are at extremely different levels of power is kinda foolish for anyone tbh. Hence why I am trying to use this as a way to support this kind of scaling, even though I know it's iffy.

He isn’t portrayed as someone extremely powerful due to his choice to wait for you to fight Asgore and get him six souls. He does not even fight anybody. And killing everyone is no small feat, and given that there are zero direct proofs of anyone being stronger/comparable to Flowey, saying that Undyne is 8-B due to “not being that weaker than Flowey” is just a blatant assumption.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

At least Small Building level (Has an ATK rating of 80, making him one of the strongest monsters in the Underground, thus being significantly stronger than Undyne to the point that she considers killing Frisk to be mercy compared to what Asgore could do to them. He is a Boss Monster, the strongest type of all monsters. Far more powerful than Flowey, who even with higher amounts of LV, could have never make it past Asgore without Frisk injuring him first)

This on Asgore's profile. You have to make a CRT to cover that, as it's accepted otherwise.

Fair. Will do that in Frisk 2-B AP then.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I feel like the Flowey "can't be that much stronger than Undyne" is really just an argument out of incredulity.

Would make more sense to try and scale Undyne to Asgore since she knocked him down in sparring or scaling her to Toriel since she can overthrow her.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He isn’t portrayed as someone extremely powerful due to his choice to wait for you to fight Asgore and get him six souls.

Because he already did fight everyone? He did anything he could do in the Underground after all.

And killing everyone is no small feat

Can be done through spamming SAVE and LOAD, like Frisk/Chara do.

and given that there are zero direct proofs of anyone being stronger/comparable to Flowey, saying that Undyne is 8-B due to “not being that weaker than Flowey” is just a blatant assumption.

I mean... most of what I said kinda covers it though? I'd need staff input in this though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Would make more sense to try and scale Undyne to Asgore since she knocked him down in sparring or scaling her to Toriel since she can overthrow her.

Facepalms

For some reason that shit completely slipped off my memory.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Regardless I think we got 3 pages full of nothingburgers, and that it should be discussed in a new thread with the new arguments. Shall we close this and move in a new one?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Regardless I think we got 3 pages full of nothingburgers, and that it should be discussed in a new thread with the new arguments. Shall we close this and move in a new one?

Yes

 

[StrymULTRA]

Continued here. This can be closed.