Undertale CRT; Bone Edition + one addition for a certain human.

[Roachman40]

remade sans profile here

Didn't really change much with the stats and stuff, just added references, scans, and expanded the notable attack section.

One major thing I removed however, is his 4th Wall Awareness. The Dirty Hacker ending I feel shouldn't be considered as canon at all, it is merely an error-handling ending and cannot be accessed through actually playing the game, and can only be accessed via heavily modifying the game files. more thoughts on this would be appreciated.


Oh and one thing, frisk should get Supernatural Willpower due to self-explanatory determination reasons, not sure why this wasn't on the profile before.

 

[Armorchompy]

I guess 4th wall removal is fine. Not sure about LS upscaling tbh, what's the rationale for him being stronger than Papyrus?

 

[Zencha9]

aye

 

[Roachman40]

I guess 4th wall removal is fine. Not sure about LS upscaling tbh, what's the rationale for him being stronger than Papyrus?

Sans has far more experience with his magic than papyrus, if his fight in the genocide route is any indication.

 

[Ayewale]

Sans has far more experience with his magic than papyrus, if his fight in the genocide route is any indication.

His fight in the genocide route isn't any justification for sans being stronger than Papyrus. If anything it's actually the complete opposite ( 1 ATK, 1 DEF and stated to be the weakest monster). We also know that his fight in the genocide route doesn't work like any other fight in the series due to KR and how the games refresh rate for damage disappears, so it's pretty much inapplicable in terms of scaling.

You could argue he has more experience but that doesn't translate to AP or strength. You could also argue that it's an unfair comparison anyways considering Papyrus isn't trying to kill the player at all: you could make a case that in the fight, Papyrus actually sees the player as a friend.

Sans isn't stronger than Papy.

 

[Roachman40]

His fight in the genocide route isn't any justification for sans being stronger than Papyrus. If anything it's actually the complete opposite ( 1 ATK, 1 DEF and stated to be the weakest monster). We also know that his fight in the genocide route doesn't work like any other fight in the series due to KR and how the games refresh rate for damage disappears, so it's pretty much inapplicable in terms of scaling.

You could argue he has more experience but that doesn't translate to AP or strength. You could also argue that it's an unfair comparison anyways considering Papyrus isn't trying to kill the player at all: you could make a case that in the fight, Papyrus actually sees the player as a friend.

Sans isn't stronger than Papy.

Physically yes, papyrus is much stronger, but the lifting strength covers how strong his magic is, in which he definitely should be comparable to, if not superior to papyrus, for already explained reasons.

Actually, I should probably change the LS to 'Unknown Physically, Class 25 with Magic'.

 

[Armorchompy]

I feel like experience =/= power, Sans' magic does a lot more damage but that's because of its properties, not actual power behind it.

Also, I feel like Sans could have athletic stamina, the fight against him is gonna be 10-15 minutes and he's dodging the whole way through, that's relatively impressive. He doesn't even fully run out of energy by the end, he dodges the last attack, frisk (chara?) just blindsides him by attacking again.

 

[Roachman40]

I feel like experience =/= power, Sans' magic does a lot more damage but that's because of its properties, not actual power behind it.

Also, I feel like Sans could have athletic stamina, the fight against him is gonna be 10-15 minutes and he's dodging the whole way through, that's relatively impressive. He doesn't even fully run out of energy by the end, he dodges the last attack, frisk (chara?) just blindsides him by attacking again.

Sans experience with his magic should show that he can do alot more impressive things with it than papyrus, evidently in the fight alot of sans attacks are similar to papyrus' but alot harder. The giant bone which grants the class 25 that was done by papyrus I dont think had much power behind it either, it was just an incredibly large bone that did around the same damage as the regular sized bones, pretty sure. So as said above, considering sans can use his magic much more effectively than papyrus can, he should be comparable, if not superior, if that makes sense.

Stamina proposal seems fair, yea.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Some stuff.

The Dirty Hacker ending I feel shouldn't be considered as canon at all, it is merely an error-handling ending and cannot be accessed through actually playing the game, and can only be accessed via heavily modifying the game files. more thoughts on this would be appreciated.

This is legit argument from incredulity if you ask me. Chara can already mess with the files canonically, and I don't see why the Player shouldn't be able to do as well, when they indeed can do that. Nothing in Undertale is not canon because the game is literally made to be shaped based on what you do (basing on what the game allows by itself, without counting mods and the likes of course). I don't think that an ending about messing the files is not canon, especially in a game this meta.

Lifting Strength: Unknown Physically, Class 25 with his magic (Should be far superior to Papyrus)

This is legit pretty an ass reason to be honest. I do believe that he has "Class 5, possibly 25" TK because Frisk does indeed become stronger than monsters like in the Genocide Run (where they get 32 ATK without any item at LV 19) and Sans straight up does not care and just slams them over and over. However Frisk has only a "Peak Human" rating, when the feat was done at minimal DT. Monsters like Asgore and Undyne have the Class 5, possibly 25 LS rating for upscaling from Papyrus. So I don't see why Frisk shouldn't.

Speaking of LS, Asriel's case is complete garbage, as is filled of "Unknown" anywhere, when he has plenty of feats/scalings to place LS ratings for him, same for Absolute Chara.

So, Sans does indeed have that much LS, but for whole other reasons.

Oh and one thing, frisk should get Supernatural Willpower due to self-explanatory determination reasons, not sure why this wasn't on the profile before.

Every DT user should tbf.

Also, why is Sans only 10-B? He's not the weakest monster, he has 1 ATK/DEF, which makes him stronger than things which have 0 Stats and below, HOWEVER, this wiki does not have any agreement on what the **** is 0 ATK or below here.

At minimal levels of DT, Frisk has 0 ATK and DEF, and is rated 9-B for their feats while being at such levels.

Jerry is 10-C despite it has 0 ATK

Vulkin's durability is 0 and it is rated as 9-B

Moldsmal has 0 DEF and that is rated as 9-B.

Monster Kid has 2 ATK/DEF and is 10-B

Tldr this wiki constantly contradicts itself on the stats of these monsters. Sans should be 9-B, and also all the monsters who are =>0 in stats.

I can argue Snowdrake's Mother is already 9-C basing on her sheer size but I disgress.

 

[Roachman40]

Some stuff.

This is legit argument from incredulity if you ask me. Chara can already mess with the files canonically, and I don't see why the Player shouldn't be able to do as well, when they indeed can do that. Nothing in Undertale is not canon because the game is literally made to be shaped based on what you do (basing on what the game allows by itself, without counting mods and the likes of course). I don't think that an ending about messing the files is not canon, especially in a game this meta.

• The player entities nature is incredibly ambiguous and the true extent of its abilities is never really shown, although that is a discussion for a different thread.
• The 'Nothing Undertale is not canon because the game is literally made to be shaped based on what you do' I feel mean the choices you can do in the game, I wouldn't think manipulating the files of the game is something that should be considered, especially considering modifying the games source code is an out-of-verse action and probably wasn't meant as an actual thing to do while playing. Yes the game is pretty meta, but I don't think its that meta, nothing in the game deliberately states for you to go into the game files to manipulate or find something, nor do they bring light to such a thing. Also, from what I'm getting of your interpretation, anything in the game files would be canon considering it is something the actual game holds and 'allows', but that would also include scrapped and test content, which evidently ain't canon at all.
• The Dirty Hacker ending implies that Sans' knows the existence of the player and that he is in a game, which even then I don't think is the case either, nothing in the actual game really shows this, pretty sure, and if he did know he was in a game, I feel he would have definitely taken note of this somehow, especially in the genocide fight. This ending should merely be taken as just a error-handling message as it was originally supposed to, not some legitimate ending you can reach canonically, as said above.

This is legit pretty an ass reason to be honest. I do believe that he has "Class 5, possibly 25" TK because Frisk does indeed become stronger than monsters like in the Genocide Run (where they get 32 ATK without any item at LV 19) and Sans straight up does not care and just slams them over and over. However Frisk has only a "Peak Human" rating, when the feat was done at minimal DT. Monsters like Asgore and Undyne have the Class 5, possibly 25 LS rating for upscaling from Papyrus. So I don't see why Frisk shouldn't.

Speaking of LS, Asriel's case is complete garbage, as is filled of "Unknown" anywhere, when he has plenty of feats/scalings to place LS ratings for him, same for Absolute Chara.

So, Sans does indeed have that much LS, but for whole other reasons.

Also, why is Sans only 10-B? He's not the weakest monster, he has 1 ATK/DEF, which makes him stronger than things which have 0 Stats and below, HOWEVER, this wiki does not have any agreement on what the **** is 0 ATK or below here.

At minimal levels of DT, Frisk has 0 ATK and DEF, and is rated 9-B for their feats while being at such levels.

Jerry is 10-C despite it has 0 ATK

Vulkin's durability is 0 and it is rated as 9-B

Moldsmal has 0 DEF and that is rated as 9-B.

Monster Kid has 2 ATK/DEF and is 10-B

Tldr this wiki constantly contradicts itself on the stats of these monsters. Sans should be 9-B, and also all the monsters who are =>0 in stats.

I can argue Snowdrake's Mother is already 9-C basing on her sheer size but I disgress.

This CRT isn't exactly focused on changing the tierings, like my other recent crts before this it is moreso just changing the p&a and whatnot, if you so wish to change the 10-B and Lifting Strength for Asriel and others, creating another thread for it is probably best.

 

[Ayewale]

Also, why is Sans only 10-B? He's not the weakest monster, he has 1 ATK/DEF, which makes him stronger than things which have 0 Stats and below, HOWEVER, this wiki does not have any agreement on what the **** is 0 ATK or below here.

Sans is called the weakest/easiest monster verbatim in-game. You might have forgotten but the games say so as bluntly as possible. Also to piggyback off Roachman40, this is outside the scope of the thread.

I agree with "unknown physically, class 25 with magic" for Sans, that at least makes a bit more sense.

 

[TioKill]

Some stuff.

This is legit argument from incredulity if you ask me. Chara can already mess with the files canonically, and I don't see why the Player shouldn't be able to do as well, when they indeed can do that. Nothing in Undertale is not canon because the game is literally made to be shaped based on what you do (basing on what the game allows by itself, without counting mods and the likes of course). I don't think that an ending about messing the files is not canon, especially in a game this meta.



This is legit pretty an ass reason to be honest. I do believe that he has "Class 5, possibly 25" TK because Frisk does indeed become stronger than monsters like in the Genocide Run (where they get 32 ATK without any item at LV 19) and Sans straight up does not care and just slams them over and over. However Frisk has only a "Peak Human" rating, when the feat was done at minimal DT. Monsters like Asgore and Undyne have the Class 5, possibly 25 LS rating for upscaling from Papyrus. So I don't see why Frisk shouldn't.

Speaking of LS, Asriel's case is complete garbage, as is filled of "Unknown" anywhere, when he has plenty of feats/scalings to place LS ratings for him, same for Absolute Chara.

So, Sans does indeed have that much LS, but for whole other reasons.

Every DT user should tbf.

Also, why is Sans only 10-B? He's not the weakest monster, he has 1 ATK/DEF, which makes him stronger than things which have 0 Stats and below, HOWEVER, this wiki does not have any agreement on what the **** is 0 ATK or below here.

At minimal levels of DT, Frisk has 0 ATK and DEF, and is rated 9-B for their feats while being at such levels.

Determination is a form of power separate from stats, we can't exactly stat scale Frisk to any other monsters.

Jerry is 10-C despite it has 0 ATK

Vulkin's durability is 0 and it is rated as 9-B

Moldsmal has 0 DEF and that is rated as 9-B.

Monster Kid has 2 ATK/DEF and is 10-B

Tldr this wiki constantly contradicts itself on the stats of these monsters. Sans should be 9-B, and also all the monsters who are =>0 in stats.

I can argue Snowdrake's Mother is already 9-C basing on her sheer size but I disgress.

 

[TioKill]

About Lifting Strength via Gravity Manipulation, I agree on the grounds that Sans can harm you by flinging you through the box, while Papyrus can't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans is called the weakest/easiest monster verbatim in-game. You might have forgotten but the games say so as bluntly as possible.

Easiest ≠ Weakest.

But fine lol, let's take that 0>1 here.

 

[Roachman40]

One thing, while both Moldsmal and Vulkin have 0 DEF, they make up for it by having a lot more HP than someone like sans, in which they can actually take a hit, so I would think 9-B is still fine, at least for those two. Although as said before, this should probably be saved for another thread.

Sans is called the weakest/easiest monster verbatim in-game. You might have forgotten but the games say so as bluntly as possible. Also to piggyback off Roachman40, this is outside the scope of the thread.

I agree with "unknown physically, class 25 with magic" for Sans, that at least makes a bit more sense.

About Lifting Strength via Gravity Manipulation, I agree on the grounds that Sans can harm you by flinging you through the box, while Papyrus can't.

I'm assuming yall don't have any problems with the 4th wall awareness removal?

 

[StrymULTRA]

One thing, while both Moldsmal and Vulkin have 0 DEF, they make up for it by having a lot more HP than someone like sans, in which they can actually take a hit, so I would think 9-B is still fine, at least for those two. Although as said before, this should probably be saved for another thread.

Sans has only 1 HP in data, not in canon stats though.

 

[Roachman40]

Sans has only 1 HP in data, not in canon stats though.

I mean his HP is more likely to be 1 more than anything considering seemingly all of his other stats are, nothing in the game proves/implies that his HP would be any higher than his other stats after all, pretty sure. Although entertaining the thought, if his HP was higher than 1, we wouldn't even know how high his HP is exactly for already said reasons, just that it would be higher than 1, which is rather vague and wouldn't warrant any solid tiering at all.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean his HP is more likely to be 1 more than anything considering seemingly all of his other stats are, nothing in the game proves/implies that his HP would be any higher than his other stats after all, pretty sure. Although entertaining the thought, if his HP was higher than 1, we wouldn't even know how high his HP is exactly for already said reasons, just that it would be higher than 1, which is rather vague and wouldn't warrant any solid tiering at all.

Ok, but you're still ignoring that his ATK is still higher than Jerry's ATK or Vulkin's DEF.

 

[KingPin0422]

I agree with the changes, but while we're talking about Sans revisions, I'd like to request an addition of my own in case it isn't already noted on the profile.

As I found out through this blog post, the flavor text at the beginning of each turn changes depending on how high your KARMA is. Notably, it describes "your sins crawling on your back/weighing on your neck," which to me is a strong indicator that Sans' power turns your sins (the number of people you've killed, in this case) against you, further supported by what karma is in the first place. While I'm iffy on saying that it scales with the target's # of kills, I feel that this much deserves to be noted.

 

[TioKill]

I mean his HP is more likely to be 1 more than anything considering seemingly all of his other stats are, nothing in the game proves/implies that his HP would be any higher than his other stats after all, pretty sure. Although entertaining the thought, if his HP was higher than 1, we wouldn't even know how high his HP is exactly for already said reasons, just that it would be higher than 1, which is rather vague and wouldn't warrant any solid tiering at all.

You're asking for someone to prove a negative.
"There's nothing implying it's higher", why would it be if Sans' HP was never supposed to be revealed to the player?
You can't datamine for values if they're not shown in canon - end of story, there's no discussing this.

We don't know Sans' HP at all. The 1 is just a placeholder since his death is scripted, literally. UT mechanics require a HP to be set for any given enemy, regardless if said HP is supposed to be used or not.
It wouldn't be "higher than 1", it would be "any real number", below Chara's attack damage of course.
Also, implying any comparable monster would one shot Sans is humorous.

 

[Roachman40]

Ok, but you're still ignoring that his ATK is still higher than Jerry's ATK or Vulkin's DEF.

I mean with Sans he literally just does 1 attack of which ignores INV, as said with vulkin while its DEF is 0 it makes up for it in HP, so it having lower DF than sans ATK wouldn't really matter here, I would think. Not sure what is meant from bringing up jerry here, he kind of just never attacks and is currently 10-C atm, so it seems sans is already stronger than him, at least.

You're asking for someone to prove a negative.
"There's nothing implying it's higher", why would it be if Sans' HP was never supposed to be revealed to the player?
You can't datamine for values if they're not shown in canon - end of story, there's no discussing this.

We don't know Sans' HP at all. The 1 is just a placeholder since his death is scripted, literally. UT mechanics require a HP to be set for any given enemy, regardless if said HP is supposed to be used or not.
It wouldn't be "higher than 1", it would be "any real number", below Chara's attack damage of course.

I getcha, although I feel we run into the same problem in that we wouldn't actually know an exact number his HP actually is to give him any solid higher durability, still.


Alright, lets get back on track now fellas.

I agree with the changes, but while we're talking about Sans revisions, I'd like to request an addition of my own in case it isn't already noted on the profile.

As I found out through this blog post, the flavor text at the beginning of each turn changes depending on how high your KARMA is. Notably, it describes "your sins crawling on your back/weighing on your neck," which to me is a strong indicator that Sans' power turns your sins (the number of people you've killed, in this case) against you, further supported by what karma is in the first place. While I'm iffy on saying that it scales with the target's # of kills, I feel that this much deserves to be noted.

Seems fine to me, sure.

 

[TioKill]

I getcha, although I feel we run into the same problem in that we wouldn't actually know an exact number his HP actually is to give him any solid higher durability, still.

Just scale him to 1 DEF enemies at the beginning of the game, shouldn't be too far off, right? It's a very safe assumption.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I getcha, although I feel we run into the same problem in that we wouldn't actually know an exact number his HP actually is to give him any solid higher durability, still.

HPs are canon, but we aren't given these. Saying for example that Toriel has much less HPs than Asgore only because the datas say so is ridiculous. Sans has 1 HPs in the datas because his death is literally scripted.

Plus, saying that Monster Kid, who has 2 ATK, wouldn't be able to harm Moldsmal, who has 0 DEF is ridiculous.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And btw

• The player entities nature is incredibly ambiguous and the true extent of its abilities is never really shown, although that is a discussion for a different thread

Leave that to the current Low 1-C thread, please.

• The 'Nothing Undertale is not canon because the game is literally made to be shaped based on what you do' I feel mean the choices you can do in the game, I wouldn't think manipulating the files of the game is something that should be considered, especially considering modifying the games source code is an out-of-verse action and probably wasn't meant as an actual thing to do while playing. Yes the game is pretty meta, but I don't think its that meta, nothing in the game deliberately states for you to go into the game files to manipulate or find something, nor do they bring light to such a thing. Also, from what I'm getting of your interpretation, anything in the game files would be canon considering it is something the actual game holds and 'allows', but that would also include scrapped and test content, which evidently ain't canon at all.

This is legit strawmanning. The game recognizes the manipulating the data files as something you can do, and like the choices Frisk does through the game are canon, this should too. It has no reasons to be not canon, especially when the game is that meta indeed. Scrapped files are not recognized from the game, thus they're not canon, but manipulating the files in a way to trigger only the Dirty Hacker ending should be, as the game literally allows that.

• The Dirty Hacker ending implies that Sans' knows the existence of the player and that he is in a game, which even then I don't think is the case either, nothing in the actual game really shows this, pretty sure, and if he did know he was in a game, I feel he would have definitely taken note of this somehow, especially in the genocide fight. This ending should merely be taken as just a error-handling message as it was originally supposed to, not some legitimate ending you can reach canonically, as said above.

Sans is the same dude who is aware about resets, and even attacks the menu screens.

 

[Roachman40]

Just scale him to 1 DEF enemies at the beginning of the game, shouldn't be too far off, right? It's a very safe assumption.

hmm, im fairly neutral on that, DEF is not really the same as HP and him being 'the easiest monster' somewhat implies he is weaker than the other monsters that frisk faced so far, although easiest dosent always mean weakest of course, I wouldn't argue against a 'possibly' of some sort. Although that's best left for another thread, as said above.

 

[Roachman40]

And btw

Leave that to the current Low 1-C thread, please.

mhm.

This is legit strawmanning. The game recognizes the manipulating the data files as something you can do, and like the choices Frisk does through the game are canon, this should too. It has no reasons to be not canon, especially when the game is that meta indeed. Scrapped files are not recognized from the game, thus they're not canon, but manipulating the files in a way to trigger only the Dirty Hacker ending should be, as the game literally allows that.

When has the game recognized that manipulating the source code of the game is something you can canonically do? I dont remember that while playing. If you mean the chara thing, I would think the deletion of the actual game files was a bi-product of them destroying the gameworld physically, as seen by their strike and the gamebox shaking, not chara literally going into the files of the game to delete them. The game does not naturally allow the dirty hacker ending nor is it ever recognized in regular gameplay, as said it is merely an errorhandling message, and I feel it should be treated as such. Modifying the sourcecode to break the game and get an error-handling message saying something is wrong I dont think is something that a player was meant to find, if you get what I mean. You can do the same with scrapped content (more specifically, the scrapped rooms) of which you can go into the files of the game and find access to stuff like the bullet test room and other test areas, so if you consider manipulating the data files an intended feature in the game, than stuff like that would be also canon, which as said probably isn't the case.

Sans is the same dude who is aware about resets, and even attacks the menu screens.

He is aware of the resets due to the reports yes, but I dont think he exactly remembers anything from them. Attacking the menu screens doesn't exactly prove much I'd say, Asgore breaks the MERCY button, and mad dummies cotton goes all over the dialogue box, yet im pretty sure neither of those characters know they are in a game, I would think.

 

[TioKill]

hmm, im fairly neutral on that, DEF is not really the same as HP and him being 'the easiest monster' somewhat implies he is weaker than the other monsters that frisk faced so far, although easiest dosent always mean weakest of course, I wouldn't argue against a 'possibly' of some sort. Although that's best left for another thread, as said above.

Fair enough about leaving for another thread.

Just - the easiest enemy is given due to his ability to deal 1 damage.

 

[Roachman40]

bump

 

[Roachman40]

bumpp

 

[Comiphorous]

i'd make sans' portrait smaller, it seems a little big. other than that epic remake.

 

[Roachman40]

bump

 

[TioKill]

Contact a staff supporter

 

[Roachman40]

bump

 

[Starter_Pack]

After reading through this, here are my thoughts.

Everything that has not received any objections is fine by me as well, such as the addition of references, giving Frisk Supernatural Willpower, and the like.

The proposed LS change also seems fine to me due to scaling from full Determination Frisk. Seems like simple scaling.

Removing 4th Wall Awareness also seems fine, as Roachman seems correct about his interpretation of the Dirty Hacker ending, in my personal opinion. This isn't Doki Doki Literature Club or OneShot, where you're actively encouraged to look into the game's files in order to manipulate the world. Using Chara as an excuse for this to work due to them destroying the save file screams NLF to me, as while characters like Chara and Flowey did manipulate and destroy save files, and hence the world, there was no chicanery involving manipulating those files yourself, so getting the Dirty Hacker ending through legitimate means is actually impossible.

 

[TioKill]

After reading through this, here are my thoughts.

Everything that has not received any objections is fine by me as well, such as the addition of references, giving Frisk Supernatural Willpower, and the like.

The proposed LS change also seems fine to me due to scaling from full Determination Frisk. Seems like simple scaling.

Removing 4th Wall Awareness also seems fine, as Roachman seems correct about his interpretation of the Dirty Hacker ending, in my personal opinion. This isn't Doki Doki Literature Club or OneShot, where you're actively encouraged to look into the game's files in order to manipulate the world. Using Chara as an excuse for this to work due to them destroying the save file screams NLF to me, as while characters like Chara and Flowey did manipulate and destroy save files, and hence the world, there was no chicanery involving manipulating those files yourself, so getting the Dirty Hacker ending is through legitimate means is actually impossible.

I believe it's more nuanced than that, so many video game elements are considered to be canonical that something like that could be intended to be found. Alas, we lack the critical evidence to consider the ending canon nonetheless, so I agree with you, on paper.

 

[Roachman40]

I believe I have enough votes, gonna add this now

 

[Abstractions]

Closing.