Undertale downgrades

[Antvasima]

Which staff members agree with this change? Agnaa can be counted as honorary staff btw.

You could ask some more for input, and if they do not reply, we will have to make do with what we have.

 

[Starter_Pack]

After the simplification provided by Psycho, I'll agree to all proposed here. I also support a blog being created that explains the effects of SAVE, LOAD, and RESET.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I don't agree to any of this, at all.

It would be EXTREMELY inconsistent to call LOVE game mechanics as it and similar STATs have been directly referred to by characters ingame, and have been shown by all intents and purposes to increase STATs directly. All STATs are also treated as canon by this very wiki.

Photoshop Flowey was never defeated by the Player, nor did such a Player exist in the first place. He was defeated by the SOULs that made him up. Hell, if you want to go with the route that Frisk was the Player during that fight that badly, Photoshop Flowey was DESTROYING the Player compared to Chara.

Base Asriel's STATs are so big that they can only be quantified as infinity symbols, which are higher than they've ever been seen even at Chara's "absolute", and via powerscaling has likely never even surpassed 300. Also infinity universe x infinity universe = 2-B, not Low 2-C.

Also, there is no Angel of Hyperdeath form. There's God of Hyperdeath and Angel of Death.

This summary also makes no mention of the Annoying Dog, that's something Read this Post seems to have just snuck in after.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Also, can someone check that Photoshop Flowey does actually perform the exact game destroying feat when he crashes the game that Chara does? Because that's why it was put onto the profile iirc.

 

[Psychomaster35]

It was never implied that Flowey destroyed all of Undertale when he closed the game while turning into Omega Flowey, and he never even said he did so. I can assume that it was just Flowey dragging the player to his save file (his universe where he has killed everyone) only to lose, causing everything to go back to normal again, and even people like Sans or Papyrus talk to the player after they leave the underground, proving that this fight WAS in a different universe, only after Floweys defeat did everything go back to normal.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I don't agree to any of this, at all.

It would be EXTREMELY inconsistent to call LOVE game mechanics as it and similar STATs have been directly referred to by characters ingame, and have been shown by all intents and purposes to increase STATs directly. All STATs are also treated as canon by this very wiki.

Photoshop Flowey was never defeated by the Player, nor did such a Player exist in the first place. He was defeated by the SOULs that made him up. Hell, if you want to go with the route that Frisk was the Player during that fight that badly, Photoshop Flowey was DESTROYING the Player compared to Chara.

Base Asriel's STATs are so big that they can only be quantified as infinity symbols, which are higher than they've ever been seen even at Chara's "absolute", and via powerscaling has likely never even surpassed 300. Also infinity universe x infinity universe = 2-B, not Low 2-C.

Also, there is no Angel of Hyperdeath form. There's God of Hyperdeath and Angel of Death.

This summary also makes no mention of the Annoying Dog, that's something Read this Post seems to have just snuck in after.

1. By this very wiki, no now. That should be treated as game mechanics as the scaling has been proven to not make any sense. This pretty much got talked about in a previous thread shown here.

2. No, the Anamoly DID exist. The game pretty much states a "you" when doing an action. For example... here and when you pick up items on the ground. Regardless of how you can even say that "Oh the player didnt defeat OF, the souls did!" No, thats because the player saved the souls which led them to team up and defeat OF.

3. And yet nothing even proves it that Base Asriel scales to Chara because no proof is even said about it. At a lowball, we DO have a confirmation that he is Low 2-C, but the reasoning of him being 2-B at base is litterally none at all. Infinite Stats do not mean anything. Furthermore, if you dare say that Stats are canon, nope. See here and here. If you really say that Asriel is infinity, then how is Asgore even doing the SAME AMOUNT IF DAMAGE AS HIM (Both deal 8 damage assuming no armor)? If you go by that logic, does that make Asgore 2-B? I dont think so.

Angel of Hyperdeath, Angel of Death, whatever. But I still agree that AoHD should keep the Multiverse rating as he scales to Chara, in which both of them had one thing in common: They were doing a True Reset. One that would destroy the entirety of Undertale, which theoretically, would contain up to 1000 universes (SAVEs) if you save the game many times, but at a lowball, at least less than 1000 universes, so 2-C likely 2-B AoHD Asriel it is.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The rewritten opening shows that it's definitely Flowey having rewritten the world.

 

[Tyranno223]

No offence, but how isn't it a false equivalence to say Asgore and Asriel doing equal damage to Frisk proves ingame stats don't matter? That idea completely ignores the fact Frisk is at their absolute peak in terms of determination when fighting Asriel as opposed to a far lower amount when fighting Asgore. Heck this wiki in fact already treats Max determination Frisk as a separate key. If anything that showing simply acts as a feat for Max determination Frisk's durability (which is how it's already treated) rather than an anti feat for Asriel.

Also, I'm not sure if this wiki counts such as raw data stats as feats ingame over lore, otherwise I'm pretty sure Dark Souls would have someone like Midir as the God Tier of that verse.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Photoshop Flowey was never defeated by the Player, nor did such a Player exist in the first place. He was defeated by the SOULs that made him up. Hell, if you want to go with the route that Frisk was the Player during that fight that badly, Photoshop Flowey was DESTROYING the Player compared to Chara.

Dude, why the heck are you linking that thread to try to prove the Player isn't a character in Undertale? You've haven't even debunk everything I said about the Player being real and already you are using the thread to support your theory?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It was never implied that Flowey destroyed all of Undertale when he closed the game while turning into Omega Flowey, and he never even said he did so. I can assume that it was just Flowey dragging the player to his save file (his universe where he has killed everyone) only to lose, causing everything to go back to normal again, and even people like Sans or Papyrus talk to the player after they leave the underground, proving that this fight WAS in a different universe, only after Floweys defeat did everything go back to normal.

It was never implied ingame that Chara destroyed all of Undertale either, but here we are. And how the hell does Sans leaving a voicemail for Frisk mean Photoshop Flowey was in a different universe?

 

[Psychomaster35]

This is the probability of Plot Manipulation as well, see Cals message.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

>Photoshop Flowey

>Plot Manipulation

 

[Psychomaster35]

Basically, he may have just rewrote the entire plot to be his world after he closed the game so he would change it to his own file on his very perspective, but in the same universe.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Photoshop Flowey doesn't have Plot Manipulation (Although I kinda wish he did).

 

[Psychomaster35]

And after that, the souls pretty much undid Flowey's thing, reverting everything in the universe Flowey had done back to normal, hence, it is in the same universe because of Sans' call. That could be a potential new ability.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I already tried that, and it was considered Data Manipulation, Time Manipulation, and Reality Warping. I did get Frisk a nice shiny Type 2 Acausality though.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

1. By this very wiki, no now. That should be treated as game mechanics as the scaling has been proven to not make any sense. This pretty much got talked about in a previous thread shown here.

2. No, the Anamoly DID exist. The game pretty much states a "you" when doing an action. For example... here and when you pick up items on the ground. Regardless of how you can even say that "Oh the player didnt defeat OF, the souls did!" No, thats because the player saved the souls which led them to team up and defeat OF.

3. And yet nothing even proves it that Base Asriel scales to Chara because no proof is even said about it. At a lowball, we DO have a confirmation that he is Low 2-C, but the reasoning of him being 2-B at base is litterally none at all. Infinite Stats do not mean anything. Furthermore, if you dare say that Stats are canon, nope. See here and here. If you really say that Asriel is infinity, then how is Asgore even doing the SAME AMOUNT IF DAMAGE AS HIM (Both deal 8 damage assuming no armor)? If you go by that logic, does that make Asgore 2-B? I dont think so.

Angel of Hyperdeath, Angel of Death, whatever. But I still agree that AoHD should keep the Multiverse rating as he scales to Chara, in which both of them had one thing in common: They were doing a True Reset. One that would destroy the entirety of Undertale, which theoretically, would contain up to 1000 universes (SAVEs) if you save the game many times, but at a lowball, at least less than 1000 universes, so 2-C likely 2-B AoHD Asriel it is.

I don't see STATs being talked about on that page. The only reason I've seen is that Read this Post wanted Asgore on the same tier as a Froggit. Stats have been mentioned by practically every character such as Sans talking about EXP and LOVE, ordinary people bringing up STATs in conversations, and Chara mentioning all STATs seperately. Hell, even the fight music, dialogue boxes, and fullscreen are mentioned or interacted with in the story.

Literally most games have a narrator. Does Legend of Zelda have a canon Player? No. Does Final Fantasy have a canon Player? No. Do they similarly talk about their characters in third person? Yes. A narration doesn't mean a Player is canon. Even if there was one, this "Player" didn't win with Attack Potency since only the SOULs could beat him and Chara never even fought the Player, if they existed.

What Tyranno223 said about Asgore and Asriel.

Close enough for a lowball.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Dude, why the heck are you linking that thread to try to prove the Player isn't a character in Undertale? You've haven't even debunk everything I said about the Player being real and already you are using the thread to support your theory?

Because I'm a busy man and because I forgot you made any new points because of whatever happened.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ugh. That Ducking troll.

 

[Antvasima]

@All staff members

So what should we do here? It seems like except for SASP this has been accepted.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I pretty much agree on everything, so w(en will the changes be applied?

 

[Antvasima]

You should politely ask all of the staff members who have commented here previously to reply again via their message walls.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

TLDR, does this affect 2-Bs in any way?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Omega Flowey will be 2-C, likely 2-B ==> At least Low 2-C

Base Asriel will be 2-B ==> Low 2-C

Angel of Death Asriel will be 2-B ==> 2-C, likely 2-B

Is this what you are looking for, Zamasu?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes. I'm just making sure 2-B stays.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Frisk should also be affected.

Judging from what's agreed on here, Frisk's AP will go to At least Low 2-C and their Durability will go to At least Low 2-c, likely 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

You should politely ask all of the staff members who have commented here previously to reply again via their message walls.

Is somebody willing to do this?

 

[Sans2345]

Omega Flowey will be 2-C, likely 2-B ==> At least Low 2-C
Base Asriel will be 2-B ==> Low 2-C

Angel of Death Asriel will be 2-B ==> 2-C, likely 2-B

Is this what you are looking for, Zamasu?

I agree with this but i question if charas tier will be changed

 

[Sans2345]

Since chara destroyed a timeline that possibly contains multiple timelines

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Nobody really refuted me.

 

[Psychomaster35]

...because they have already refuted your points many times throughout this thread.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

No they didn't, I just made my new comments.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

I don't see how one comment suddenly makes the downgrades invalid.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I don't see how one comment suddenly makes the downgrades invalid.

One comment suddenly makes the downgrades invalid when it pokes innumerable holes in the validity of the entire premise of the thread and hasn't been properly debunked yet.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Who is it then that Flowey is talking about when you are about to do a true reset? Thats right: YOU. The one who has the power to reset everything. And before you say, "Uhhh nooo, its Frisk hes talking about", Flowey DOES say this:

"Let Frisk be happy."

That gives a sign that Flowey isnt talking to Frisk, so WHO is he talking to? I think we all know the answer.

You're right.

You got me.

He wasn't talking to Frisk.

He was talking to Chara.

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Yeah, no. That comment did not poke "innumerable holes in the argument".

 

[Chariot190]

Not gonna lie, I don't agree with everything he said but he is right on one front, Flowey was evidently talking to chara. It's kinda made perfectly clear that's who flowey was talking toward.

 

[ElixirBlue]

That's assuming Flowey has Omniscience. Flowey assumes he was talking to Chara, but even Flowey doesn't know everything.

 

[Read_this_post]

Chara and the player are... kinda the same person in a way. Not to say the player doesnt exist in undertale. He undoubtedly does. But its complicated.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That's during the Genocide Run, where Flowey was indeed talking to a Chara that has possessed Frisk's body.