Undertale - Downgrades are wack

[StrymULTRA]

No like tf man. Cloud size doesn't mean jack at all.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Pizza Tower. We accept it even for those sizes, so Vulkin should too.

"Whataboutism"
It fits a load of other criterias.

Also two wrongs wouldn't make a right.​

common sense

1 meter thick cloud generating 1.6 billion joules by simply being a cloud being common sense is certainly a statement.
Common Sense is not assuming the little cloud is comparable to a real one in terms of potency unless scaling suggests otherwise.
Scaling doesn't suggest otherwise.​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

No like tf man. Cloud size doesn't mean jack at all.

Are you aware of the math that goes behind a cloud generating lightning?
Because size matters a lot, and I mean a lot. Electron density is a thing.


TO BE CLEAR

Fiction can bypass that math, but only by having feats above the required AP.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

And I disagree with this notion. If there are supportive things for the feat, then it should be used.

Otherwise maybe I could try to search stuff for a lower end lightning.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

1 meter thick cloud generating 1.6 billion joules by simply being a cloud being common sense is certainly a statement.
Common Sense is not assuming the little cloud is comparable to a real one in terms of potency unless scaling suggests otherwise.
Scaling doesn't suggest otherwise.​

Let me use good old analogy here.


Pyrope​

• Pyrope can generate magic bombs.​
• We have evidence that magic scales to real life.​
• The average bomb used in nuclear warfare is several kilotons strong.​
• "Why don't we scale Pyrope to Tier 7"​

This is what you're doing.

• Vulkin can generate clouds.
• We have evidence that magic scales to real life.​
• The average cloud generates to 1.6 billion joules in lightning​
• "Why don't we scale Vulkin's clouds to 1.6 billion joules too?"​

The proximity which is still notable, has no weight on this discussion. It's a simple fact that being composed out of something doesn't mean you should scale to much larger, denser and stronger real life counter parts unless you have substancial evidence.

I hope this was enough to present you to the root of the problem.

And I disagree with this notion. If there are supportive things for the feat, then it should be used.

What should be used?
The assumption? Because it's still just that, an assumption.

Why should the lightning be as fast as the real one?
"Because it's cloud"
But it's small
"Being small doesn't matter"
It does, it cannot generate the same amount of eletrons naturally.
"But feat almost close"
It's half of the required energy. And comes from stronger characters.

Then repetition. You can disagree with logic all you want.

Otherwise maybe I could try to search stuff for a lower end lightning.

1.6 billion is already the low end, a typical lightning has 5 to 20 billion.

 

[Jason_Courne]

• Pyrope can generate magic bombs.​
• We have evidence that magic scales to real life.​
• The average bomb used in nuclear warfare is several kilotons strong.​
• "Why don't we scale Pyrope to Tier 7"​

This is what you're doing.

There are more types of bombs than just NUCLEAR WEAPONS, there's FRAG GRENADES, DYNAMITE, GASOLINE BOMBS, PIPEBOMBS, C4
A "bomb" doesn't directly mean "nuclear warhead" (depending on who you ask, technically a firework is a bomb)

Pyrope's bombs are based on typical cartoon bombs which are in turn based on iron grenades (not nuclear warheads)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Tsunderplanes' nukes would have been a better example, since it actually drops nuke-like bombs on Frisk

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Or Knight Knight's Sun

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Adem actually solved the problem for me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Pyrope can generate magic bombs.​
• We have evidence that magic scales to real life.​
• The average bomb used in nuclear warfare is several kilotons strong.​
• "Why don't we scale Pyrope to Tier 7"​

Because the average bomb is not Tier 7 at all the ****?

• Vulkin can generate clouds.
• We have evidence that magic scales to real life.​
• The average cloud generates to 1.6 billion joules in lightning​
• "Why don't we scale Vulkin's clouds to 1.6 billion joules too?"​

The proximity which is still notable, has no weight on this discussion. It's a simple fact that being composed out of something doesn't mean you should scale to much larger, denser and stronger real life counter parts unless you have substancial evidence.

Notable
Not even x2 gap

Yeah no, this is getting too much into nitpicking territory here. I should call more calc members but I disagree immensely with this notion.

 

[Therefir]

The average lightning is 4 kilometers long, 2.5 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 1963495.40 cm^3.

Vulkin's lightning is 66.45 centimeters long, 10.13 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 5355.54 cm^3.

The average lightning is 366 bigger than Vulkin's lightning.

And yes, you can calculate a lightning's power by its size.

I'll go back to the basement and calculate Frisk's speed using the meteors.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Ok so since Therefir's Mettaton calc is .193 tons of tnt, and the gap to baseline building level is only 1.3x so. Would significantly stronger monsters such as Toriel, Asgore, Mettaton NEO, and Undyne the Undying all upscale to baseline .25 tons of tnt?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually me and @The_Yellow_Topaz made a recalc of MTT Feat and it's either 0.7 or 1.01 Tons.

I don't understand at all why is only one leg used when MTT clearly can make up legs and other copies of himself as bullets for the attack patterns.

 

[Therefir]

Since Topaz helped you with the calc, you should probably go with her speed value.

Regarding the use of 5 legs, note that I suggested using only 1 leg because the legs are not technically connected, so their mass is separated, and Frisk can be moderately injured by a single leg.

But given that we were fine with using multiple meteors for Knight Knight despite having the same issues, the calc is most likely fine.

This means Vulkin meets one of the requirements needed for its lightning to be MHS+.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No like tf man. Cloud size doesn't mean jack at all.

Yes it does (for AP). Not sure about speed tho.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes it does (for AP). Not sure about speed tho.

Tbf it should still be accepted under the new calc given this standard:

• Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

So :v

This means Vulkin meets one of the requirements needed for its lightning to be MHS+.

So this means that everyone loses the + rating. Sad.

 

[Jason_Courne]

This means Vulkin meets one of the requirements needed for its lightning to be MHS+.

Wait doesn't it already meet a few?

1. Comes from a cloud (even though it is miniature compared to natural thunderstorms, it still sets the precedent for it being natural)
2. Magic mimics natural elements (which also supports it being natural lightning)

I thought the AP argument was just the biggest requirement to be met?

 

[StrymULTRA]

1. Comes from a cloud (even though it is miniature compared to natural thunderstorms, it still sets the precedent for it being natural)
2. Magic mimics natural elements (which also supports it being natural lightning)
3. It should have power comparable to lightning

This was the one it didn't met lol.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Since Topaz helped you with the calc, you should probably go with her speed value.

I suggested yours, to be honest.

Regarding the use of 5 legs, note that I suggested using only 1 leg because the legs are not technically connected, so their mass is separated, and Frisk can be moderately injured by a single leg.

But given that we were fine with using multiple meteors for Knight Knight despite having the same issues, the calc is most likely fine.

I was never fine with that. Knight Knight using multiple meteors when she only summons one at the time is a problem.
Thing is, I also disliked the use of 5 legs, I just thought it would be best to let the CGMs take care of that. But your logic about Frisk being damaged by one leg is fair enough, I believe one leg should be used.

This means Vulkin meets one of the requirements needed for its lightning to be MHS+.

Can you verify if it meets the Outlier criteria?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Tbf it should still be accepted under the new calc given this standard:

• Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

Yeah, but we do consider it real electricity, that's what real lightning means, it just needed the AP to classify.
If Therefir approves it
then it's fine as long as it's not an outlier​

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you verify if it meets the Outlier criteria?

Tbh it seems just that you're pulling excuses. Why would it be an outlier when the lowest tiers are 9-B and Subsonic? They have nowhere to be compared with higher tiers.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think Outliers only work if the feat gets contradicted by later showings and stuff, don't think that happens here

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Tbh it seems just that you're pulling excuses. Why would it be an outlier when the lowest tiers are 9-B and Subsonic? They have nowhere to be compared with higher tiers.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in speed?

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified?

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling?

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?

Just answer these questions, please.

I think Outliers only work if the feat gets contradicted by later showings and stuff, don't think that happens here

In the same fight we have supposed MHS+ electricity we have normal plane bombs, later we are outsped by a gun that we need to aim dodge, we get outsped by technological bombs.

 

[StrymULTRA]

1) Is it a big jump or drop in speed?

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified?

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling?

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?

Just answer these questions, please.

1. No, it's from characters much stronger than fodders
2. No
3. Why would it be unjustified, they're stronger than fodders
4. No
5. No

In the same fight we have supposed MHS+ electricity we have normal plane bombs

They just upscale to MHS+ then.

later we are outsped by a gun

Photoshop Flowey's guns are clearly not normal as he literally is a semi-god with 6 SOULs. So he upscales too.

we get outsped by technological bombs.

Again, they upscale from MHS+ too.

It's a feat for those, not the other way around.

Are you trying this much to downgrade UT out of bias miss?

 

[Arceus0x]

Ngl what Strym is saying is correct. The guns and bombs in undertale are magical and thus while they are at least comparable to real life counterparts, they aren't bound by them exactly due to that. If these were normal guns or bombs then i would agree that it's weird but there are no normal human weapons besides maybe a chainsaw, some halberds and a knife or two in this verse

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

1. No, it's from characters much stronger than fodders

That doesn't answer the question.
Subsonic to MHS+ is a 5000x jump from characters that are somewhat stronger.​

1. No

Yeah​

1. Why would it be unjustified, they're stronger than fodders

"Stronger than the dogs" who are Royal Guards on Snowdin is not a justification, you need to provide any evidence that the game implied this outwordly gap, so yes, it's unjustified. The game never justified the gap​

1. No

Yes. Characters competent enough to be Royal Guards are 5000x slower than regular hotland citizens? Nope.​

1. No

Same as above.​

They just upscale to MHS+ then.

Photoshop Flowey's guns are clearly not normal as he literally is a semi-god with 6 SOULs. So he upscales too.

Again, they upscale from MHS+ too.

It's a feat for those, not the other way around.

Again, you act like the very concept of contradictions doesn't exist.
The bombs are not deniable by any means, they're just technological bombs, they can't upscale from anything, and they're mach 5 at best.

You talk something about author's intent then you pull arguments like that?​

Are you trying this much to downgrade UT out of bias miss?

Watch what you're implying;
Any accusations is going to be taken seriously, so I'd be careful if I were you.
Address my points and only them from now on.​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Ngl what Strym is saying is correct. The guns and bombs in undertale are magical and thus while they are at least comparable to real life counterparts, they aren't bound by them exactly due to that. If these were normal guns or bombs then i would agree that it's weird but there are no normal human weapons besides maybe a chainsaw, some halberds and a knife or two in this verse

Empty Gun is a regular gun, and it's very much implied to have been used in the game by the yellow soul human.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That doesn't answer the question.
Subsonic to MHS+ is a 5000x jump from characters that are somewhat stronger.

It happens all the time in fiction. You not believing it does not mean it's false.

"Stronger than the dogs" who are Royal Guards on Snowdin is not a justification, you need to provide any evidence that the game implied this outwordly gap, so yes, it's unjustified. The game never justified the gap​

It justifies it from being stronger. Toby Fox does not care about numerical jumps, it's silly, yes, but it happened.

Again, you act like the very concept of contradictions doesn't exist.

Because it doesn't.

The bombs are not deniable by any means, they're just technological bombs, they can't upscale from anything, and they're mach 5 at best.

You literally have Tier 7 guns in Madoka Magica which are literally just stolen from thugs, and Tier 1 weapons in DOOM. So what's wrong with this?

You talk something about author's intent then you pull arguments like that?​

Toby Fox clearly intented those to be stronger than irl counterparts, yes.

Empty Gun is a regular gun, and it's very much implied to have been used in the game by the yellow soul human.

No it's not a regular gun at all, it literally uses SOUL power.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It happens all the time in fiction. You not believing it does not mean it's false.

It is a big jump in power then.​

It justifies it from being stronger. Toby Fox does not care about numerical jumps, it's silly, yes, but it happened.

Too bad, we do.​

Because it doesn't.

You literally have Tier 7 guns in Madoka Magica which are literally just stolen from thugs, and Tier 1 weapons in DOOM. So what's wrong with this?

Whataboutism.​

Toby Fox clearly intented those to be stronger than irl counterparts, yes.

Stronger? Can't prove that.
What about FASTER?
These are two very different things​

No it's not a regular gun at all, it literally uses SOUL power.

Actual headcanon, the soul power is only used at the flowey fight and it's not our gun.
It's a regular gun.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

It is a big jump in power then.​

And that's not a problem, because it does not contradict anything.

Too bad, we do.​

Keep your own standards and bias outta this. It still works.

Whataboutism.​

I don't give a shit about what you think. In fiction this happens all the time, and now in Undertale is bad? Lol.

Stronger? Can't prove that.
What about FASTER?
These are two very different things

We have feats proving they're stronger, so they're faster too.

Actual headcanon, the soul power is only used at the flowey fight and it's not our gun.
It's a regular gun.

Good, 10-C Undertale when? They all receive damage from normal guns.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

"Stronger than the dogs" who are Royal Guards on Snowdin is not a justification, you need to provide any evidence that the game implied this outwordly gap, so yes, it's unjustified. The game never justified the gap

Yes. Characters competent enough to be Royal Guards are 5000x slower than regular hotland citizens? Nope.​

Isn't The Canine Unit being 9-B while regular Hotland lads are 8-C the same, no?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't The Canine Unit being 9-B while regular Hotland lads are 8-C the same, no?

The oven explosion is of 0.0016 Tons while MTT feat is 0.77

Gap is 481.25 times.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But to be honest, we have literally verses like EarthBound where characters jump from 9-B and Subsonic to 8-C and Rela+ from just grinding, in Jojo you get jumps from 8-C and MHS to HIgh 8-C and MFTL between higher in-verse tiers, so why is Undertale so weird if we allow even more extreme jumps?

This legit reeks of r/characterrant arguments.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Keep your own standards and bias outta this. It still works.

This is the wiki's standards. You are welcome to try and change it.
But as of now,
a 5000x gap
between characters that are considered regular citizens
over actual Royal Guards that are trained to maintain peace on society?
Nah.​

I don't give a shit about what you think. In fiction this happens all the time, and now in Undertale is bad? Lol.

This is the second time you have been unnecessarily aggressive with me.
I advise you to be calm.

Whataboustism is not appliable.
If said guns scale to Tier 7, doesn't mean it's a standard.
It's a case-by-case basis, this is why using other cases is just wrong.

In this case, it's a regular surface gun, we have no reason to assume it's speed.​

We have feats proving they're stronger, so they're faster too.

Read what you wrote again.
Actually just read it.

You honestly believe AP and Speed are related. This is not Dragon Ball Z, sir.​

Good, 10-C Undertale when? They all receive damage from normal guns.

Piercing Damage and Intent Weakness goes brrr.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is the wiki's standards. You are welcome to try and change it.
But as of now,
a 5000x gap
between characters that are considered regular citizens
over actual Royal Guards that are trained to maintain peace on society?
Nah.

We accept even gaps of billions here lmao. Ong are you serious with me?

And yes, the feats suggest this, so we do that. x5000 is tame compared with other stuff here.

In this case, it's a regular surface gun, we have no reason to assume it's speed.​

Based on what it would be just subsonic? In Undertale we have 9-B children and humans can make up a literal 2-B barr

You honestly believe AP and Speed are related. This is not Dragon Ball Z, sir.​

Yes I do. Higher AP can be with higher speed too if we see the feats.

Piercing Damage and Intent Weakness goes brrr.​

Yeah no, if you seriously are arguing over 10-C Undertale, this argument is over.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is the wiki's standards. You are welcome to try and change it.
But as of now,
a 5000x gap
between characters that are considered regular citizens
over actual Royal Guards that are trained to maintain peace on society?
Nah.​

This kinda applies to both AP and Speed tho
It'd go away if we downscale everyone to 9-A tbh

 

[StrymULTRA]

This kinda applies to both AP and Speed tho
It'd go away if we downscale everyone to 9-A tbh

Eeh, MTT NEO is kinda a hard nope, Vulkin same.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Eeh, MTT NEO is kinda a hard nope, Vulkin same.

MTT NEO fought someone on Undying's level and Vulkin is probably lower-end 0 DEF

 

[StrymULTRA]

MTT NEO fought someone on Undying's level and Vulkin is probably lower-end 0 DEF

Yeah but he still attributed his defeat to his shitty DEF before anything.

Honestly it's better if we keep the current things at Low Tiers at 9-B and Subsonic and Mid/High tiers at 8-C and MHS+.

Seems more consistent in this way.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Yeah no, if you seriously are arguing over 10-C Undertale, this argument is over.

10-C?
Guns are 9-C
And they harm characters several tiers higher via piercing damage.
"Most verses tend to be extremely inconsistent regarding conventional firearms. [...] Although piercing damage is a legitimate part of real world physics, that we have unfortunately not been able to properly incorporate into our system for practical reasons, it is often exaggerated in fiction to the point that almost any character without some form of metallic body protection will usually treat lead bullets as a lethal threat. This should also not be taken seriously for scaling purposes." - Outlier page
Also monsters get weaker when you intent to hurt them.​

Yes I do. Higher AP can be with higher speed too if we see the feats.

You're arguing that the act of exerting a particular level of energy through attacking is directly related to the act of moving through physical space at a certain pace.
No, stronger bombs are not Mach 2000, and MTT's scaling doesn't even put him above regular IRL bombs, which are into the KiloTons range and are still not even high hypersonic.​