- 13,450
- 3,767
Agree with removing the sun calc, neutral on the rest
The meteor shower does peak my interest, though
The meteor shower does peak my interest, though
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Undertale - Downgrades are wack
- Thread starter The_Yellow_Topaz
- Start date
KingNanaya
He/Him- 2,658
- 3,686
- 9,289
- 3,282
I think we can also multiply that according to the number of meteors, which would probably reach 9-A+
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,712
- 3,668
I didnt mock them, I was memeing “Mr. nice”
- 12,545
- 4,669
You see, you just shot yourself on the foot from admitting the Pizza Tower one is legit, because even in this case the cloud is small and has a face. You're acting as if it being magical is a contradiction when it's not. We know that Sans and Papurus' bones are real ones, same with fire magic. So the cloud would work like a real one too as a side effect.
Even here you just shot your own foot. Why would it need to do that? It's not a contradiction if it doesn't, it's literally just a gameplay choice that does not affect the nature of the thing.
Yes, because Occam's Razor exists and you're legit overcomplicating stuff with no reason.
The 9-A stuff he scales from. The gap isn't that large, so him being 8-C isn't that far fetched.
Not how it works, because AP is given to the energy of a single attack, not multiple. Otherwise Jojo characters would be Tier 7 because of them throwing thousands of punches in a single attack.
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Pretty sure we do so if the attack summons them all at once, like in this calc
- 12,545
- 4,669
It's very MEH, but I should need to wait CGMs. I don't like this premise.
- 13,450
- 3,767
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,712
- 3,668
8-B? Wow
- 13,450
- 3,767
They are summoning all of these at once, not in multiple rounds. Hence, multiplying it is fine.
- 12,545
- 4,669
They're about 50-ish (they're a LOT and the graphic style does not make it easy either)
I got this time 0.215713495 Tons with the 50 assumption, or 9-A+.
But an accurate count needs to be made.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #52
You truly believe this is a "gotcha" moment, right?
You truly ignored how I stated it had multiple other qualifiers, right?
Yes, being a small cloud and magical stops it from qualifying automatically, not at all.
You're also obliged to have an AP of 1.6 billion joules, so it's just an objectivity you can't go through.
You truly ignored how I stated it had multiple other qualifiers, right?
Yes, being a small cloud and magical stops it from qualifying automatically, not at all.
You're also obliged to have an AP of 1.6 billion joules, so it's just an objectivity you can't go through.
Oh god, bro...
This is so tiresome....
I said it didn't need to do that specifically.
I just said it was a potential qualifier that doesn't exist.
Stop fighting a strawman.
This is so tiresome....
I said it didn't need to do that specifically.
I just said it was a potential qualifier that doesn't exist.
Stop fighting a strawman.
You really tried to say Occam's Razor overwrites burden of proof.
I'm done with this.
I'm done with this.
9-A isn't 8-C.
0.18 Tons isn't 0.36 Tons.
You want a qualifier for speed, prove the AP first.
I'm really done with this.
0.18 Tons isn't 0.36 Tons.
You want a qualifier for speed, prove the AP first.
I'm really done with this.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #53
"Meteors travel at 11200 m/s "
No. Use Mach 5. Meteors that come from outspace travel at that speed.
- 12,545
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Based on literally what it does? Why would it being magical stop it from qualifying? Tell me, I have yet to see a reason. Papyrus' bones are still real ones despite being magical, same with fire magic.
Exactly man, I am going from author intent here. Toby clearly intented it to be an actual lightning, and I don't see how it being magic discredits it at all.
I am saying that Vulkin is 0.36 Tons because the other feats supporting being that strong. You're now weaponizing a wording which overrides common sense and context just for the sake of this downgrade of yours.
Mach 5 here buddy.
Jason_Courne
He/Him- 935
- 1,029
As the person who created Mettaton Ex's calc, I feel justified in defending it,
Whereas my calculation takes into acount the FULL LEG (ie the foot, the lower leg, and the upper leg). I used the FULL LEG volume because when you destroy Mettaton's legs (completely) he can no longer perform leg attacks (meaning the leg attacks are the full leg)
The thigh to lower leg ratio is something like 2:1, so that's why it got so lower
The reason your volume value is so much lower compared to my value, is because you only calculated below the lower leg volume, not full leg volume
Whereas my calculation takes into acount the FULL LEG (ie the foot, the lower leg, and the upper leg). I used the FULL LEG volume because when you destroy Mettaton's legs (completely) he can no longer perform leg attacks (meaning the leg attacks are the full leg)
The thigh to lower leg ratio is something like 2:1, so that's why it got so lower
- 9,400
- 8,204
- 13,450
- 3,767
Fixed it
- 5,683
- 3,210
What da hell is the "No becouse it's Magical" argument stands for?
Are you guys aware Magic can produce natural lightning, ie other elements?
Fairy Tail chars for example, are assumed to use natural lightning, the same as many Isekai chars who use elemental Magic....kek, even in DB, Moro can bring to the surface natural Magma, fire, from the Planet's core and control it with Magic.
I know you are gonna say "Whataboutism", but that's the thing. If we treat Magical lightning as natural lightning in many other Magic verses, Undertale shouldn't be an exception.
That's just following the wiki rules, as simple as that
Are you guys aware Magic can produce natural lightning, ie other elements?
Fairy Tail chars for example, are assumed to use natural lightning, the same as many Isekai chars who use elemental Magic....kek, even in DB, Moro can bring to the surface natural Magma, fire, from the Planet's core and control it with Magic.
I know you are gonna say "Whataboutism", but that's the thing. If we treat Magical lightning as natural lightning in many other Magic verses, Undertale shouldn't be an exception.
That's just following the wiki rules, as simple as that
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- 8,204
Brother in christ, the full leg you are claiming doesn't even exist, even a 4-meter long leg doesn't give results close yours.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #60
I am also kind of unsure about multiplying the meteors by 41. Watching the clip, it's clear KnightKnight summons one at the time. (The fact they also are summoned instantly on fire also concerns me)
I think it should either be divided by the seconds the attack was active, or counting the meteors that were actually simultaneously summoned
What's your opinion on this?
- 9,400
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Yes, they should be using the number of meteors moving simultaneously at any given time.
It doesn't really matter if Knight Knight can summon (as an example) 50 meteors in 5 seconds when 40 of those meteors have already disappeared by the fifth second.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #62
Then measure Mettaton's actual leg.
StrymULTRA actually misrepresented my point.
Being magical is not a defeater of it being valid or not!
I never said it was!
I said magical lightning clouds are not given the automatic green light like natural clouds would because magical elements are still possible.
So they'd need to pass through the criterias!!
I said on the very OP that I believed it was like real electricity,
being electricity and being lightning speed are not the same thing!!
In all the verses you stated
they have a mountain of evidence of the magical lightning;
behaving like lightning
stated to be lighting
scaling to characters far beyond tier 8
so yes, this is "Whataboutism". It's just not something that
has anything to do with Undertale.
they have a mountain of evidence of the magical lightning;
behaving like lightning
stated to be lighting
scaling to characters far beyond tier 8
so yes, this is "Whataboutism". It's just not something that
has anything to do with Undertale.
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And yet you have to disprove it it being actual lightning, because all I saw was argument from incredulity and nothing else.
- 9,289
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Pretty funny this basically has the same value as Knight Knight's sun creating feat tho
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Lel. So almost nothing changes.
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You need to bring actual proof of not being natural.Then measure Mettaton's actual leg.
StrymULTRA actually misrepresented my point.
Being magical is not a defeater of it being valid or not!
I never said it was!
I said magical lightning clouds are not given the automatic green light like natural clouds would because magical elements are still possible.
So they'd need to pass through the criterias!!
I said on the very OP that I believed it was like real electricity,
being electricity and being lightning speed are not the same thing!!
In all the verses you stated
they have a mountain of evidence of the magical lightning;
behaving like lightning
stated to be lighting
scaling to characters far beyond tier 8
so yes, this is "Whataboutism". It's just not something that
has anything to do with Undertale.
Unless it's not stated so, here ok the wiki we don't assume things and take them for granted.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #67
I don't have to disprove something you never proved.
Don't start with me.
We're not doing this.
I will not waste my time
asking you to prove something
just for you to pull out and inverse burden me.
The element argument only proves it's electricity, which I never doubted.
Don't start with me.
We're not doing this.
I will not waste my time
asking you to prove something
just for you to pull out and inverse burden me.
The element argument only proves it's electricity, which I never doubted.
Moreover,
how much would gravity influence this?
I think it should be per second, or per summon
I can count 4-5 meteors being summoned at once.
how much would gravity influence this?
I think it should be per second, or per summon
I can count 4-5 meteors being summoned at once.
Jason_Courne
He/Him- 935
- 1,029
The "4 meter long leg" is only the calf / lower leg, the reason we don't see the full leg is because it's offscreen using the "total leg" would take up nearly double the space the calf alone takes up
The reason a "4 meter long leg" doesn't give anywhere near as close results is because the Calf only makes up like 28% the total leg. Otherwise you would get nearly the exact same result (0.721/.28 = 2.575 cubic meters, I got 2.566 cubic meters)
When we destroy Mettaton's legs in game the entire leg is destroyed and he no longer uses the kick attacks, meaning the kick attacks are at least tied to a full leg
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #69
It's magical.
It's magical electricty.
We,
I,
Everyone,
already accept it as true electricity.
It fulfilling the speed criteria is what being discussed.
Arguing with a strawman.
It's magical electricty.
We,
I,
Everyone,
already accept it as true electricity.
It fulfilling the speed criteria is what being discussed.
Arguing with a strawman.
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It's not, the 4-meter long leg is a different attack that actually shows the entire leg outside the battle box, or at least close to it.
I'm sorry, but your calc is based on a assumption about a leg that doesn't even exist, 4-meter is already longer than Mettaton's actual legs, there's no reason to assume there's a 10-meter long leg hiding somewhere we can't see, just so it can match the mass you got.
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Based on literally what it's only electricity when we literally see on screen that it's lightning? I've yet to see a point. The proof is right in front of your eyes, and you're pulling excuses rn.
We see that is lightning, it has resemblance to it, we know that magic in UT is the same as real counterpart, thus we know that the cloud that makes lightning is the same as the actual one.
Anyone with comparable or higher ATK than her pretty much upscales from this
Uhm, no? Most of the monsters downscale on the basis on Papyrus being still comparable to Undyne with his 20 ATK and Undyne having a durability of 20 DEF being similar to her ATK of 50 too. Remove that part, please.
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Not really interesed in undertale, but just saw the lightning argument and in this case Topaz is correct, the lightning in question need to meet various of the criteria in the lightning feats page to scale speed wise to real lightning in the wiki and be used as such in calcs, is the same principle as the light feats
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Then there is nothing wrong, and now you try to downgrade Lightning speed? Lol
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Hmm, you think that after Knight Knight launches the meteors, she no longer needs to exert any energy on them?
Yup, "if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed."
It needs to be 8-C in order to qualify for this requirement alone.
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Mind if you re-evaluate it again?
Jason_Courne
He/Him- 935
- 1,029
It is, you can visibly see the calf, it is just the lower leg it's not the entire leg
I mean obviously the rest of the leg would exist, when you destroy Mettaton's real legs he can no longer perform the leg attacks at all, which heavily implies the leg attacks are based on (not actually) his full leg
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The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,472
- 1,495
- Thread starter
- #79
It appears she summon them already on fire, yes.
She just needs to pop them into existence and gravity would do the rest.
This would mean she doesn't actually have to simultaneously control all 41 meteors.
She just needs to pop them into existence and gravity would do the rest.
This would mean she doesn't actually have to simultaneously control all 41 meteors.
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The 41 meteor value, is it the full barrage of meteors over several seconds? Or it's the amount of meteors visible moving onscreen?
This is irrelevant, we can talk about the scaling later.
