Undertale - Downgrades are wack

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

So... Undertale's ratings have problems.​

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Thank you for listening to my podcast.​

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COULD THIS BE. . . ?
. . .
. . .

I BELIEVE YOU HAVE FOUND YOUR WAY. . .
INTO A PLEASANT SURPRISE. . .

ARE YOU READY
FOR THE REVISION NOW?

. . .

EXCELENT.
TRULY, EXCELENT.

. . .

THEN
WE MAY BEGIN.​

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​

Anyway, HELLO TO ALL OF YOU!
So, someone just called me on my phone and told me I actually need to explain why the ratings are wrong... I mean what? That's crazy right?
I tried to talk back to them, but when I put the receiver on my ear
there was nothing but garbage noise!

Anyway you know how this goes!
...
...
BAH-

​

FIRST POINT​

KnightKnight creates a mini-sun​

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Explaning what is currently accepted.​

• KnightKnight, a monster that is encountered during CORE on any route, is able to make a sun-shaped bullet that shoots out stuff that's similar to stardust. Because we have evidence that magic can mimick real life elements, such Pyrope and Toriel having realfire, the previous thread stated that what KnightKnight created was actually a star, made out of plasma, an element.​
• THEN, this calculation was made, calculating how much energy the mini-sun has, using the density of HED plasma in an actual star.​

If you are knowledgeable on physics, you already saw the problem(s)!

Let's dive into them, shall we?​

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PLASMA DENSITY
So, the first problem rises when the original user who made the calculation didn't read the document they used.
​

1. The High-Energy-Density Plasma is caused by the intense and concentrated energy and nuclear fusion at the center of the star. As the document specifies, it happens excusively at the CORE (Ironically) of the star, not the entire star.
   

   • The core of a star has 0.225 Solar Radius of the entire celestial body. On the original that's a radius of around 44cm.​
   • 0.4466*0.225 = 0.100485 meters! Or 0.00425m3​
   • If we then apply the value 1e10 J/m3, we get 0.01 Tons of TNT, or 9-A. That's far from 8-C.​
2. Even with this downgrade, and I'M SORRY! But it still would not be a valid feat!!!! [I CAN'T BELIEVE IT EITHER!!!] Why, you ask? Because it's contradicted by the Sun's own Gravitational Binding Energy! Yes, the GBE must be higher than the energy the star actually produces, and it is in all cases of actual stars. That's because the GBE represents the total energy required to overcome the star's gravitational forces and disperse its material completely. It acts as a measure of the binding strength holding the star together. If the energy density of the plasma were to exceed the GBE, it would indicate that the star's internal energy is greater than the gravitational forces trying to disperse it. This would result in the star expanding or even undergoing a catastrophic event like a supernova. This is clearly not the case with KnightKnight's attack!
3. Stars result in Plasma, not the other way around! Plasma happens because stars are too big, and too massive, resulting in a temperature of 10 million Kelvin at the core!!! They have plasma at their core because of the extreme conditions of temperature and pressure present in the stellar interior! Needless to say, KnightKnight's Sun doesn't have the mass, nor the heat to achieve this!​

TL;DR​

• High-energy plasma is caused by nuclear fusion in the core of a star.
• The core of a star is much smaller than the entire star.
• The energy density of plasma is very high, but it is still much lower than the gravitational binding energy of a star.
• If the energy density of plasma were to exceed the gravitational binding energy, the star would expand or even undergo a supernova.
• KnightKnight'sSun is too small and low-mass to produce the high-energy plasma that is claimed.

​

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CORRECT WAY TO DO IT
For stars that small, just use the Stefan Boltzmann Law​

• Examples of other calculations using it: Maxwell creates a sun. Alonix creates a mini-sun.​
• To be clear, they used 15 million kelvin, we have no reason to assume KnightKnight's Sun would be as hot as our own, NFL. They also used the core, instead of the surface, which is what you should use.​
• r = 44.66cm. Area = 2.504m^2​
• Watts = 0.037 Tons of TNT (9-A)​
• I am also pointing out that this is assuming it has as much heat as the Sun's surface.​

These assumptions cannot be made for KnightKnight's attacks which haven't shown any Sun-like property.
From being able to mimick fire to being able to mimick nuclear fusion? That's no-limits fallacy.
It's a huge leap in difficulty, and energy.
Toriel and Pyrope doesn't set a precedent.
It allows leniency. An element that's too powerful still needs a little bit of proof.

Unless we can find an actual reliable heat to calculate this, the feat should be scrapped entirely.
​

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​

SECOND POINT​

Mettaton EX kicks at the speed of electricty
​

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Explaning what is currently accepted.​

• Mettaton moved his legs at the same time as his eletricity, so the KE was calculated using a normal human leg! and using!!!! Inverse Square Law to suggest how heavy they would be.​

OH! That's it?... Why is this here then?
Great question, me!​

Why are you talking to yourself?​

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Uhhhhhhhh
Well uhhhhhhhhh
...
...
Okay, fine.
It's just a pixelscaling problem.

Using Inverse-Square Law so many times is bound to lead to some inflation.
The calculation implies Mettaton's leg has 2.56637868m³.
No?

Thankfully, we can just... prove it?

• Soul: 36px | 42.72cm​
• Leg length: 355px | 421.26cm (four meters of PURE LEG)​
• Average thickness: (58+36)/2 | 47px | 55.77cm​
• Volume (Cylinder): 1.03m3​
• Hollow volume 30%: 0.721m3​
• a 2.5x discrepancy!​
• That's no margin of error, that's error of margin.​

Calculation comes off as 5659.85kg. KE comes off as 0.18 Tons.
Calculation should be altered. If not, I will just make the blog post (I WILL FORMAT IT NEATLY, I SWEAR. NO JOKES)
(Downgrade, but hey, Undertale vs Deltarune is possible again?)

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​

THIRD POINT​

Vulkin's eletricity bullets are considered to be lightning speed
​

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Explaning what happened
​

• The Undertale enemy, Vulkin, has bullet patterns shaped like electricity coming off a volcano cloud, thus, it was accepted in this thread that it had lightning speed. Because elements have been mimicked before.​

Before I dive into it, I just wanted you to look at this.

...
I don't want to just say "gap too high" but...
It certainly needs a stronger evidence, it can definitely be possible.
​

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Okay, as you guys can probably see, the thing about this whole speed is that
the fact it comes from a cloud, makes it lightning speed. Except it doesn't.​

• The cloud is magical in nature, while we can assume it can be mimicked to some extent, it wouldn't have the same amout of negative and positive energy like a real life cloud, which is incomparably bigger and has more change on it!​
• It doesn't satisfy any of the lightning speed criteria.
  

  • "making muscles of affected beings contract" - Vulkin's lightning just passes through you​
  • "having an (electro)magnetic field" - Unfortunately, not the case​
  • "being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning" - No other frame of reference.​
  • "flowing through conducting materials" - It moves in a straight line through the air, so we can't know.​
  • "the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis" - None of that.​
  • And the most important "It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify."​

1.6 Billion Joules is 0.38 Tons of TNT. Vulkin doesn't scale to that.

​

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Conclusion:

• KnightKnight's feat gets scrapped for a lack of a better alternative that isn't terrible for 'em
• Mettaton EX's feat gets a downgrade to 9-A+
• High-Tiers become the next highest speed tier after receiving a downgrade from MHS+

​

 

[Da3ggman]

I know jacks shit about Stars and stuff, so just count me as neutral for that. Everything else I agree.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't want to just say "gap too high" but...
It certainly needs a stronger evidence, it can definitely be possible.

I mean Frisk also does kinda dodge Asriels lighting and Napstablook outruns light

 

[ShionAH]

I do want to ask though does OP hate Undertale and Deltarune lol

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I mean Frisk also does kinda dodge Asriels lighting and Napstablook outruns light

Asriel is currently rated as Immeasurable tho
And Napstablook didn't really outrun Flowey's light, lad just closed the closed their blinds after the light started knocking on his door lol

 

[ShionAH]

Asriel is currently rated as Immeasurable tho

Doesnt Frisk only get DT boost in the second phase?

And Napstablook didn't really outrun Flowey's light, lad just closed the closed their blinds after the light started knocking on his door lol

He did close it before the light can enter from there

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Doesnt Frisk only get DT boost in the second phase?

Frisk tanks attacks from an ∞ ATK Asriel and a timeline bust in the first phase tho

He did close it before the light can enter from there

Don't think that's really implied, so ehh

I'd wait for Strym's counter-arguments first tho

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I mean Frisk also does kinda dodge Asriels lighting and Napstablook outruns light

Frisk aim dodged those
and was several times slower than it.

Ooooh, how I wished this Napstablook feat was legit thoooo... ​

 

[ShionAH]

Don't think that's really implied, so ehh

I'd wait for Strym's counter-arguments first tho

The reason it knocked on the door is because of the light couldnt enter, napstablook close the curtain

Ooooh, how I wished this Napstablook feat was legit thoooo...

Why not

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I can't say much on the Mini-Sun stuff, but pretty sure the arguments against MHS+ Vulkin were all refuted in my and Strym's debacle in the original thread,
See here

 

[Rau]

neutral. but I think it is only used in an implied sense. so no feat.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

He did close it before the light can enter from there

His statement says the light knocked on the door, the sound reached Blooky before the light could enter?

Magical light should not be lightspeed, it broke one of the criteria.​

I can't say much on the Mini-Sun stuff, but pretty sure the arguments against MHS+ Vulkin were all refuted in my and Strym's debacle in the original thread,
See here

His counter was "3 CGMs agreed with me, so stop arguing about it"

Wow, gotta say, I'm convinced.

No, see, electricity that doesn't meet the criteria doesn't get to bypass that because it comes from a magical small cloud.
"A character being able to bend light does not mean said light is not SoL, and same applies to lightning." is what got me.
Yes, if the verse is not lightspeed already, it does mean the light isn't SoL.​

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

His counter was "3 CGMs agreed with me, so stop arguing about it"

I'm too lazy to read it again, but I'm sure there was more to it than that lol
Afterall, like 2 Staff agreed with it

 

[ShionAH]

His statement says the light knocked on the door, the sound reached Blooky before the light could enter?

He could have saw the light knocking through the curtain

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Since this is mostly a calc CRT, Imma contact some CGMs

 

[ShionAH]

 

[Therefir]

Not gonna lie, I always thought this "Sun" calc was kinda wack.

At the very least, it shouldn't be using the energy of the core of the Sun.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you guys calm down for a second? I am typing because a lot of this is very easily debunked.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Not gonna lie, I always thought this "Sun" calc was kinda wack.

At the very least, it shouldn't be using the energy of the core of the Sun.

I'd be pretty sad if we end up removing it tho, since it's the only non-calc needed 8-C feat that appears in Inverted Fate, most tragic

 

[ShionAH]

it shouldn't be using the energy of the core of the Sun.

The visual does make it seem like its the sun

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

He could have saw the light knocking through the curtain

If he was already there then it's not a speed feat.

 

[ShionAH]

If he was already there then it's not a speed feat.

What??

The light comes to the curtain, Napstablook closes it before it enters
The light goes to towards the door and Napstablook sees it knocking on the door through the curtain.

 

[Therefir]

The visual does make it seem like its the sun

Yes but if it's like an actual Sun, the core of Knight Knight's Sun would only be 25 percent of the sun's radius.

It can't be both similar to the Sun and use only the energy found in the core of the Sun, that's the issue.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not commenting on the MTT thing as I did not do the calc. But on the rest...

I mean Frisk also does kinda dodge Asriels lighting and Napstablook outruns light

1. Asriel is rated as Immeasurable, so that does not mean shit.
2. Napstablook literally closed the door because the light knocked the door first. This implies the light has mass in order to be able to physically touch an object, thus completely discarding it being SoL in the first place.

These assumptions cannot be made for KnightKnight's attacks which haven't shown any Sun-like property.
From being able to mimick fire to being able to mimick nuclear fusion? That's no-limits fallacy.
It's a huge leap in difficulty, and energy.
Toriel and Pyrope doesn't set a precedent.
It allows leniency. An element that's too powerful still needs a little bit of proof.

Unless we can find an actual reliable heat to calculate this, the feat should be scrapped entirely.

They literally do. Monster Magic does perfecrly mimick the element they represent, so why shouldn't Knight Knight's sun do the same? That seems argument from incredulity. I am not commenting on the re-calc, that's a bit out of my knownledge calc-wise. I am not too much of an expert on cosmic tier calcs and such.

• The cloud is magical in nature, while we can assume it can be mimicked to some extent, it wouldn't have the same amout of negative and positive energy like a real life cloud, which is incomparably bigger and has more change on it!​

So what it being magical discredits it being a real one? This sounds pretty much an headcanon. We got plenty of spells in fiction which are 1:1 with the real thing, and what are the contradictions the cloud has with real ones? I just don't get it, it seems a lot like incredulity lmao.

• "making muscles of affected beings contract" - Vulkin's lightning just passes through you​

If you mean passing through the SOUL like Sans' bones does, they don't do that.

• "having an (electro)magnetic field" - Unfortunately, not the case​

That's not a mandatory thing. Also this is pretty much a game with a simple artstyle, you're making things way too complicated here.

• "being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning" - No other frame of reference.​

It's not necessary. We know that it's literally a bolt of lightning coming from a cloud. It's not needed to do this lmao.

• "the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis" - None of that.​

This is from characters who are shown to manipulate electricity in a Pikachu-like way. Vulkin straight up created clouds with lightning. Not a counter.

• ​
  • And the most important "It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify."

1.6 Billion Joules is 0.38 Tons of TNT. Vulkin doesn't scale to that​

It's a feat for Vulkin not the way around though.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

What??

The light comes to the curtain, Napstablook closes it before it enters
The light goes to towards the door and Napstablook sees it knocking on the door through the curtain.

You're making up a timeline of events now? Wow. Blooky said they heard a knock on their door and stated the light wanted to enter, then they closed their blinds.

Napstablook is not faster-than-light.

Yes but if it's like an actual Sun, the core of Knight Knight's Sun would only be 25 percent of the sun's radius.

It can't be both similar to the Sun and use only the energy found in the core of the Sun, that's the issue.

Even a pocket sun would have a much weaker temperature, pressure, mass (~530kg), and most things that would qualify for plasma.

 

[ShionAH]

You're making up a timeline of events now? Wow. Blooky said they heard a knock on their door and stated the light wanted to enter, then they closed their blinds.

Napstablook is not faster-than-light.

I realized I was completely wrong lol nvm

 

[Therefir]

Even a pocket sun would have a much weaker temperature, pressure, mass (~530kg), and most things that would qualify for plasma.

It's certainly too small to emulate the conditions and pressure of an actual Sun.

I will be calling a few calc group members here to review this Sun creation feat.

@DontTalkDT @CloverDragon03 @Psychomaster35 @Damage3245

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you ******* not? They're literally new here, no need to mock them lel.

 

[Therefir]

As for Mettaton's feat, I will be using those measurements and values for my own calc, I will give Topaz credits of course.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As for Mettaton's feat, I will be using those measurements and values for my own calc, I will give Topaz credits of course.

For that the calc always seemed weird, yes.

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree with the sun stuff. I'm gonna stay neutral on most other stuff tho

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Also, found out that u can calc meteor creation feats, like for Invisible Dragon, wonder if that would give any good results

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

They literally do. Monster Magic does perfecrly mimick the element they represent, so why shouldn't Knight Knight's sun do the same? That seems argument from incredulity. I am not commenting on the re-calc, that's a bit out of my knownledge calc-wise. I am not too much of an expert on cosmic tier calcs and such.​

I agree to some extent. But, that is not called a "precedent", but rather "leniency"
I don't doubt that magical electricity is comparable to real electricity. Fire and electricity are equally easy to make.

But elements that require levels of energy far beyond the verse?
That you can't say a 9-A monster magic can do without showing some evidence.
See,
"Sun" isn't an element.
"Nuclear Fusion" isn't an element.
"Plasma" is a consequence of an unreasonably high temperature and pressure,
one cannot assume Undertale characters reach that temperature.
You also can't say the small sun can get to that pressure.

A sun that small wouldn't meet the criteria for plasma. It's best to interpret it as a ball of fire in the shape of a sun.​

So what it being magical discredits it being a real one? This sounds pretty much an headcanon. We got plenty of spells in fiction which are 1:1 with the real thing, and what are the contradictions the cloud has with real ones? I just don't get it, it seems a lot like incredulity lmao.

Nooo! That's not what I was implying at all.

I am mostly talking about how it's not a natural cloud, so it shouldn't automatically classify as lightning.
Natural clouds classify because real life clouds, due to size, charge particles, etc, automatically reach the criterias.

Due to size, lack of natural behavior, and being sourced from a fictional source, it needs to go through all the other criteria.

It doesn't meet any of them, so it scales to the speed of electricity instead.​

If you mean passing through the SOUL like Sans' bones does, they don't do that.

My bad, you're right about that.
But it doesn't have any lightning-like effect on us either.

Could be the resistance to it, but currently we have no evidence that
Vulkin's electricity can cause muscles and paralysis, so it doesn't meet that criteria.​

That's not a mandatory thing. Also this is pretty much a game with a simple artstyle, you're making things way too complicated here.

It's not necessary. We know that it's literally a bolt of lightning coming from a cloud. It's not needed to do this lmao.

I am not saying it's mandatory! That would be silly!
I am pointing out each criteria Vulkin falls at.

They don't all need to be fulfilled, just one or two would suffice.
What's mandatory is having an AP above 0.36 Tons.

Toby is more than capable to fill the entire screen with a cloud-like effect
rain and lighting striking down
Asriel fight is more complex than that.​

This is from characters who are shown to manipulate electricity in a Pikachu-like way. Vulkin straight up created clouds with lightning. Not a counter.

Pointing out a single lack of requirement isn't trying to counter anything.

Again, I am just showing how it falls in that criteria. If it sucedded in any of them, I'd be happy.​

It's a feat for Vulkin not the way around though.

They need to already scale to 0.36 Tons in order for one to claim they produced that much energy.
Otherwise it's just eletricity falling from a cloud too small to be considered as strong as a natural one.



I must apologize, but you didn't really debunk my points.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, found out that u can calc meteor creation feats, like for Invisible Dragon, wonder if that would give any good results

Issue is that for Knight Knight they cannot reach the real velocity because they're under a mountain.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Issue is that for Knight Knight they cannot reach the real velocity because they're under a mountain.

I mean, we can see that the meteors catch on fire mid-air, which I think puts them at around Mach 5? Don't quote me on that tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

Entirely neutral on the Sun creation feat atm, I even mentioned in the blog how I wasn't fully sure if this thing met the criteria to be a mini-sun

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nooo! That's not what I was implying at all.

I am mostly talking about how it's not a natural cloud, so it shouldn't automatically classify as lightning.
Natural clouds classify because real life clouds, due to size, charge particles, etc, automatically reach the criterias.

Due to size, lack of natural behavior, and being sourced from a fictional source, it needs to go through all the other criteria.

It doesn't meet any of them, so it scales to the speed of electricity instead.

No? The **** is this logic? The origin has literally no relevance here because of ot still behaving like a real one. Also size does not mean anything because we accept lightning speed to be real even in other cases.

My bad, you're right about that.
But it doesn't have any lightning-like effect on us either.

Could be the resistance to it, but currently we have no evidence that
Vulkin's electricity can cause muscles and paralysis, so it doesn't meet that criteria.

Issue is that Undertale is a bullet hell game, and multiple video-games with real lightning don't cause paralysis (like Pokémon, like it does cause paralysis but in the game it has only 10% of probability, which is not how actual lightning behaves). If you add the paralysis thing in a bullet hell, it would be needessly complicated. Plus every electricity attack causes paralysis to begin with, and yet they don't most of the time in fiction, they simply deal normal damage.

They don't all need to be fulfilled, just one or two would suffice.
What's mandatory is having an AP above 0.36 Tons.

What is exactly your proof it doesn't? I mean that can simply be an 8-C feat from Vulkin due to him generating that much amount of energy.

They need to already scale to 0.36 Tons in order for one to claim they produced that much energy.
Otherwise it's just eletricity falling from a cloud too small to be considered as strong as a natural one.

Yeah no, this is literally saying "no character can make MHS lightning if they have only 9-A as the other feats" which is just dumb. If they have supportive feats, then they can simply scale from that value.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, we can see that the meteors catch on fire mid-air, which I think puts them at around Mach 5? Don't quote me on that tho

Now that's a better approach. Lemme do a small calc quick.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well it gave me like 0.004 Tons or 9-A, lel.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

No? The **** is this logic? The origin has literally no relevance here because of ot still behaving like a real one. Also size does not mean anything because we accept lightning speed to be real even in other cases.

This lightning is filling a lot of other criterias, and actually behaving like real lightning.

Magic cloud is shooting magic eletric bullets due to the natural chain reaction of electrons or because Vulkin wants it?
The tip I can give is, only one of those is behaving like "a real one".

Size does matter (sorry guys) to an extent.
Can you claim the 1 meter long cloud has the same potency as the 2000m one?
By "claim" I mean prove.​

Issue is that Undertale is a bullet hell game, and multiple video-games with real lightning don't cause paralysis (like Pokémon, like it does cause paralysis but in the game it has only 10% of probability, which is not how actual lightning behaves). If you add the paralysis thing in a bullet hell, it would be needessly complicated. Plus every electricity attack causes paralysis to begin with, and yet they don't most of the time in fiction, they simply deal normal damage.

Yeah, I can see the reasoning behind not doing it.

But

That's exactly my point.


It didn't do it.

I'm also not saying it's obligatory, but
it's a potential qualifier that doesn't exist unfortunately.​

What is exactly your proof it doesn't?

Again with the proving negative shtick, huh?​

Yeah no, this is literally saying "no character can make MHS lightning if they have only 9-A as the other feats" which is just dumb. If they have supportive feats, then they can simply scale from that value.

I'd love to see Vulkin's supportive feats.


"Which is dumb"
9-A Characters' electricity is usually not lightning speed, yes.
This is the "lightning feats" page, you can go ahead and change that if you want.​