Undertale - Downgrades are wack

[StrymULTRA]

This is irrelevant, we can talk about the scaling later.

Dude... It's literally changing a calc with a scaling we already accept lol.

It's only removing a line that's wrong.

 

[Therefir]

It appears she summon them already on fire, yes.
She just needs to pop them into existence and gravity would do the rest.
This would mean she doesn't actually have to simultaneously control all 41 meteors.​

I would rather not make unnecessary assumptions about how or where the meteors are coming from.

Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.

 

[Therefir]

It is, you can visibly see the calf, it is just the lower leg it's not the entire leg

Except we can see his heels compared to this leg and they look small enough to fit the entire leg.

Unless of course, you think Mettaton's heels shrinked to a fraction of the leg's full length just for this attack.

... And it doesn't negate the fact that you are measuring legs that don't exist.

 

[Therefir]

Dude... It's literally changing a calc with a scaling we already accept lol.

"Anyone with comparable or higher ATK than her pretty much upscales from this"

Technically there is nothing wrong with this statement, he is not denying the downscaling.

 

[Psychomaster35]

The 41 meteor value, is it the full barrage of meteors over several seconds? Or it's the amount of meteors visible moving onscreen?

This is irrelevant, we can talk about the scaling later.

The first thing you said

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.

Frisk may still be vulnerable to the secondary effects like shrapnel and heat, I think that's the reason why the 0.83 Tons Frisk can still be harmed by Vulkin's 0.36 Tons Lightning

 

[StrymULTRA]

Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.

This can pretty much be explained from Frisk downscaling from her attack value tbf.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Anyone with comparable or higher ATK than her pretty much upscales from this

Uhm, no? Most of the monsters downscale on the basis on Papyrus being still comparable to Undyne with his 20 ATK and Undyne having a durability of 20 DEF being similar to her ATK of 50 too. Remove that part, please.

I never mentioned anything about the monsters with an ATK value less than Knight Knight not scaling to it, I only mentioned that anyone with an ATK value higher than her upscales.

 

[Therefir]

The first thing you said

Okay, then you should count only the maximum number of meteors that are in motion during a single frame, like this one.

I can count like 25 meteors onscreen, but you could probably count more or less using different moments of the attack.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I would rather not make unnecessary assumptions about how or where the meteors are coming from.

I don't enjoy the idea of the meteors accelerating to Mach 5 instantly, but it's fine.


I made a version including all 3 possible ends, could you take a look?


It's seems as if @Psychomaster35 and I disagree on pixelscaling sizes.
If you could double check, it would be grand.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't enjoy the idea of the meteors accelerating to Mach 5 instantly, but it's fine.


I made a version including all 3 possible ends, could you take a look?


It's seems as if @Psychomaster35 and I disagree on pixelscaling sizes.
If you could double check, it would be grand.​

0.62 Tons is not 8-C+. It's just 8-C.

 

[Arceus0x]

I am sad to see the downgrades but overall I'd say i am neutral on the sun (or agree i guess it's kinda weird anyways) and fully disagree with the magic lightning ≠ real one. Something being magical doesn't discredit its existence.

 

[Therefir]

It's seems as if @Psychomaster35 and I disagree on pixelscaling sizes.
If you could double check, it would be grand.​

After counting every pixel that makes up the heart, I got 38 pixels, which is closer to your 36 px, while Psycho only got 20 px.

That being said, I want you to add another end, using the at least 25 meteors that can be shown moving at the same time.

Anyone is welcome to try to find a frame with the most meteors on-screen, if you want to get the highest results.

If people think that the outscreen meteors and those that haven't even been created still count for the feat, then I will choose the 9-A+ end, it is more consistent with Mettaton EX's calc after all.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

TEAM FORTRESS 2 VS UNDERTAIL IS NOW POSSIBLE

 

[Psychomaster35]

After counting every pixel that makes up the heart, I got 38 pixels, which is closer to your 36 px, while Psycho only got 20 px.

I think that’s probably because we are all using different screen resolutions based on the devices we are using. I’m on iPad.

 

[Thelastmlg]

did jevil and spamton fight for writting this CRT lmao?

anyway, idk about the sun and mettaton leg one but the lightning part, well, the lightning feats page says "Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise."

it being magical doesn't discredit it being a cloud so i think it is fine, coming from clouds is probably the single most powerful evidence for the speed you can have in the wiki

 

[Therefir]

I made a version including all 3 possible ends, could you take a look?​

After some consideration, I think the mid-end should be fine, Knight Knight takes some time to summon all those meteors on screen.

And it's more consistent with Mettaton EX's feat.

Knight Knight: 0.14 tons
Mettaton EX: 0.193 tons

This means Vulkin loses the requirement needed for their lightning to be MHS+.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This means Vulkin loses the requirement needed for their lightning to be MHS+.

And why can't Vulkin just be 0.32 Tons?

 

[Therefir]

And why can't Vulkin just be 0.32 Tons?

Could that tiny cloud really be assumed to produce 8-C lightning without any feat to back it up?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could that tiny cloud really be assumed to produce 8-C lightning without any feat to back it up?

Without any feat

Given the other feats are 9-A+ and the 0.32 Tons isn't really that far from baseline 8-C, I wouldn't say the far isn't extremely large. They're still with 2 digits after 0, not 3.

 

[Therefir]

Both Knight Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work when 9-A+ are their best feats, and were not casual.

Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Spoiler

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Both Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work 9-A+ are their best feat.

This is legit taking things way too literally. They still work as supportive feats, higher tiered characters having lower yet comparable feats than the main one used happens all the time. With this logic using the explosion feat is wrong because the higher stats than 0 are in KJs instead of MJs.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Size doesn't matter if is still a cloud. Pizza Tower and EarthBound have that stuff accepted (despite latter doesn't really scale) despite those clouds being smaller.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Spoiler

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.

This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case. If you want to make High 8-C Deltarune anyway I'm not going to stop you.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Both Knight Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work when 9-A+ are their best feats, and were not casual.

Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Spoiler

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.

Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast

 

[Therefir]

This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case.

You literally were the one who suggested that idea in the first place, you only changed opinion after I told you the result.

Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast

I admit this was derailing on my part, so continuing with the thread.

Are you okay with Vulkin's lightning being 8-C?

 

[StrymULTRA]

You literally were the one who suggested that idea in the first place, you only changed opinion after I told you the result.

I legit couldn't tell that you'd use lightning, I believed you'd use just regular electricity as I couldn't find the Joule value for it kek.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Spoiler

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.

hate to be that gal, but we can't really use plasma for lightning balls, it's like the criteria for lightning speed, but for AP​

 

[Therefir]

hate to be that gal, but we can't really use plasma for lightning balls, it's like the criteria for lightning speed, but for AP​

And I have no plans on using it.

I legit couldn't tell that you'd use lightning, I believed you'd use just regular electricity as I couldn't find the Joule value for it kek.

There's no such a thing, and Queen's electricity is stronger than lightning.

Anyway, we are still derailing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's no such a thing, and Queen's electricity is stronger than lightning.

Anyway we are still derailing.

This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case. If you want to make High 8-C Deltarune anyway I'm not going to stop you.

This and the Maus thing. But yeah, if you want to make the upgrade for Deltarune, feel free to do so after this CRT.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Agreements: @Da3ggman, @Therefir, @Psychomaster35 (On Sun feat), @Expectro2000xxx (On MHS+ Downgrade), @CloverDragon03 (MTT leg)
Neutral: @Rau, @CloverDragon03 (On Sun feat), @Psychomaster35, @Arceus0x
Disagreement: @StrymULTRA, @Thelastmlg (on MHS+ downgrade), @Arceus0x (on MHS+ downgrade), @Jason_Courne (on MTT Leg)

Sun feat and Mettaton Leg EX seems to be approved already. MHS+ needs review as well.

Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast

Could you give your [[opinion]] on the other stuff?​

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Following

 

[CloverDragon03]

I evaluated Therefir's new Mettaton kick calc that used your measurements. It looks good

As for the lightning speed thing, I have no opinion tbh

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides, about the Sun thing I have no opinion, but the stardust thing is still worth to be mentioned to be fair.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Stuff.

Alright, what do you think about making Vulking simply 0.36 Tons based on the feats supporting the lightning being legit? The rest looks close enough after all.

 

[Deidalius]

I agree with OP. Lightning timing Undertale never sat right with me.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Alright, what do you think about making Vulking simply 0.36 Tons based on the feats supporting the lightning being legit? The rest looks close enough after all.

Neutral in that for now until I hear more opinions

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Neutral in that for now until I hear more opinions

Mine is that

The fact is, Vulkin downscales from a weaker feat, coming from a stronger character.
The fact it's a cloud shouldn't automatically qualify for 1.6 billion joules.

Not only is the energy of the cloud generated by the monster itself,
but natural clouds that generate that much energy are hundreds of thousand of times larger.

There is no reason to scale Vulkin's lightning to real life lightning.
So unless the monster scales to 1.6 billion joules themselves,
this shall not be assumed.

Otherwise, we'd be just working backwards.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not only is the energy of the cloud generated by the monster itself,
but natural clouds that generate that much energy are hundreds of thousand of times larger.

Pizza Tower. We accept it even for those sizes, so Vulkin should too.

Besides the gap is barely x2 come on now. This wiki has the issue of cockblocking common sense based on minor stuff like this, so let's better not repeat this mistake, okay?

 

[Therefir]

This cloud is too small to produce 8-C electric charges normally.

But these other verses do it.

Irrelevant to Undertale and they could also be wrong as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Irrelevant to Undertale and they could also be wrong as well.

Good can't wait for that Pizza Tower downgrade then.