Undertale - Downgrades are wack

[StrymULTRA]

Guns are 9-C
And they harm characters several tiers higher via piercing damage.
"Most verses tend to be extremely inconsistent regarding conventional firearms. [...] Although piercing damage is a legitimate part of real world physics, that we have unfortunately not been able to properly incorporate into our system for practical reasons, it is often exaggerated in fiction to the point that almost any character without some form of metallic body protection will usually treat lead bullets as a lethal threat. This should also not be taken seriously for scaling purposes." - Outlier page
Also monsters get weaker when you intent to hurt them.

Aka you're telling me that 8-C characters can be hurt from 9-C firearms because of piercing damage. I hope you realize how wrong you are here.

You're arguing that the act of exerting a particular level of energy through attacking is directly related to the act of moving through physical space at a certain pace.
No, stronger bombs are not Mach 2000, and MTT's scaling doesn't even put him above regular IRL bombs, which are into the KiloTons range and are still not even high hypersonic.

Irl bombs perhaps. But not UT bombs.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

9-C Firearms can barely hurt 9-Bs, and Flowey, despite being a High-End 9-B, still can't kill Asgore with Murderous Intent, so yeah

 

[Arceus0x]

Idk where to find the info but let's say the tip of the bullet is 1mm in diameter or an area of 0.007854cm^2. Surface area of an adult man is 18,000 cm^2. Divide the area of human by area of bullet tip and you get 2291825.82124. The energy of a 12g bullet shot out of a .357 magnum is 790.
790*2291825.82124=1810542398.78 joules or 0.43 tons of tnt - 8-C. Basically to tank bullets you need to upscale from this

BUT (and that's a pretty big but) this calc is inaccurate. Why? Simply put, the 790J won't be transferred via just the tip, it comes from the bullet's full impact. Thus, the results for full on tanking it would be in 9-B, what i did was an overexaggerated approximation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides, again, Undertale's power jump between Low and Mid tiers in speed is tame compared to other verses.

 

[Arceus0x]

Besides, again, Undertale's power jump between Low and Mid tiers in speed is tame compared to other verses.

I mean verses jump infinite times their power without very significant power increases so i don't see the issue.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Trunks in DBH became from Tier 4 and FTL to 2-A with Immeasurable with a simple training of 6 months too.

 

[KingNanaya]

Trunks in DBH became from Tier 4 and FTL to 2-A with Immeasurable with a simple training of 6 months too.

why are you bringing DBH into this

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Whataboutism isn't a valid response to this issue at all, and they just keep insisting on it because they're desperate.

 

[KingNanaya]

Trunks has insane Accelerated Development too, so that works even less so

 

[Arceus0x]

Whataboutism isn't a valid response to this issue at all, and they just keep insisting on it because they're desperate.

Nah it's because your logic is dumb as hell lmao

 

[KingNanaya]

Nah it's because your logic is dumb as hell lmao

you then also have to admit that comparing [insert whatever person or thing being discussed] to an alien with crazy AD is also dumb

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Robot?

 

[StrymULTRA]

you then also have to admit that comparing a robot to an alien with crazy AD is also dumb

The logic is the same. It's a literal uncountable infinite boost in a finite amount of time. Undertale is tame in comparison when kids grow from 9-B to 8-C.

 

[KingNanaya]

Robot?

my brain stopped, my bad. let me edit

 

[StrymULTRA]

But again, y'all yelling "OUTLIER!!!!" when in other verses we jump to even ******* MFTL out of MHS (which is a bigger gap) but now Undertale is a problem.

If this is not spite against the verse idk.

 

[KingNanaya]

The logic is the same. It's a literal uncountable infinite boost in a finite amount of time. Undertale is tame in comparison when kids grow from 9-B to 8-C.

DB is so much more different that UT, that comparing anything from one to the other is a pretty big reach.

 

[KingNanaya]

If this is not spite against the verse idk.

Dawg, this ain't spite. UT is one of my top 5 games, and it's been there since I was in 6th grade. It's not spite if someone disagrees with you, just a difference in opinions.

 

[StrymULTRA]

DB is so much more different that UT, that comparing anything from one to the other is a pretty big reach.

Alright, I mentioned EarthBound and Jojo too. What about those.

 

[KingNanaya]

Alright, I mentioned EarthBound and Jojo too. What about those.

I haven't played earthbound, but jojo has consistent ftl and higher feats with abilities that are, funnily enough, quite bizarre.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I haven't played earthbound, but jojo has consistent ftl and higher feats with abilities that are, funnily enough, quite bizarre.

Dude, the lower tiers literally jump from MHS to MFTL. Jonathan being the prime example.

 

[KingNanaya]

Dude, the lower tiers literally jump from MHS to MFTL. Jonathan being the prime example.

No way you called Jonathan a low tier regardless, this is derailing, so I'd like to go back to the UT stuff

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Dude, the lower tiers literally jump from MHS to MFTL. Jonathan being the prime example.

Jojo has 10 different feats, statements, citations, implications and a consistent series since 1980s to support MFTL to the point where Jonathan being MHS is the outlier here, not the contrary, he just doesn't scale because it lacks any reasoning or evidence to do so.

This is completely incomparable to Undertale which has one MHS+ "feat".

Whataboutism IS NOT a debunk!
It simply isn't!
Pointing out other series like they set up any sort of precedence does NOTHING to the argument!
A 5000x gap that has not been implied or consistent with the verse is a HUGE jump​

 

[StrymULTRA]

No I am listing that OP is legit ignoring common sense from using their dumb standards. x5000 gap in speed is nothing compared to other verses.

I am saying this is out of spite because the OP in order to discard the feat:

1. They try to invalidate it through making the scaling not 8-C
2. They try to oppose the Mettaton Feat being 8-C
3. Now they pulled the outlier card when out of options.

This is legit spite against the verse, because they are now using the outlier argument to discard the MHS feat when the other were now invalid.

 

[KingNanaya]

No I am listing that OP is legit ignoring common sense from using their dumb standards. x5000 gap in speed is nothing compared to other verses.

whataboutism

I am saying this is out of spite

false

 

[StrymULTRA]

whataboutism

Whataoutism my ass, the wiki does this for literally every verse here.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This is also a huge derailment from the main point I made.

Strym you have nothing!
If I ask you to prove this level of speed is consistent
you wouldn't be able to!

It isn't

The bombs being infinitely faster than the soul is a more-than-enough defeater
Mettaton's attack power being consistently comparable to the damage of ONE leg means Vulkin doesn't even get to the minimum AP required for it's speed to scale
​

x5000 gap in speed is nothing compared to other verses.

Understand this
You can't use other verses to compare to others.

They have their own scaling,
their own feats,
their own undeniable proof,
their own consistency,
their own implication and narrative.

IN ALL VERSES YOU POINTED OUT;

• Narrative supported the gap as the stronger characters stomped the weaker ones
• They had far more evidence to support the gap
• Other feats of the same caliber for characters of the same tier

It's not comparable. If you insist on this, I will take this as stonewalling.​

I am saying this is out of spite because the OP in order to discard the feat:

1. They try to invalidate it through making the scaling not 8-C

Please
The Knight Knight scaling was absolutely incorrect,
the MTT leg calculation was wrong too
That's why new versions were made,
and you conceded to both to, so stop​

1. They try to oppose the Mettaton Feat being 8-C

You have yet to acknowledge the damage contradiction
Separate entities have separate KE values
It shouldn't scale to all 5​

This is legit spite against the verse

I'm done with this
You lack respect

I can't "Disagree with 8-C MHS+ Undertale because I believe it's not the accurate scaling"
I can only "Disagree with it because I hate Undertale"

I am serious
The next attempt at defamation will be met with a report.
I'm done with this​

 

[KingNanaya]

Whataoutism my ass, the wiki does this for literally every verse here.

then correct it. enough said.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's not comparable. If you insist on this, I will take this as stonewalling.​

As if you don't.

I'm done with this
You lack respect

I can't "Disagree with 8-C MHS+ Undertale because I believe it's not the accurate scaling"
I can only "Disagree with it because I hate Undertale"

I am serious
The next attempt at defamation will be met with a report.
I'm done with this

You are literally switching arguments out of desperation lmfao. This is saying all.

then correct it. enough said.

I am not correcing something that's already correct. If anything Undertale should follow the wave.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This got pretty heated,

 

[KingNanaya]

I am not correcing something that's already correct. If anything Undertale should follow the wave.

it isn't correct. that's my point. a Rimuru downgrade thread got rejected because of whataboutism, so what's your point?

 

[StrymULTRA]

it isn't correct. that's my point. a Rimuru downgrade thread got rejected because of whataboutism, so what's your point?

I mean that a x5000 gap is not an outlier at all. There are no valid anti feats outside of arguments from incredulity.

I am done with the "I like X verse but I don't see them as being that strong" stuff.

 

[Dragonite007]

What heck is happening here?

 

[KingNanaya]

This got pretty heated,

unfortunately.

I mean that a x5000 gap is not an outlier at all.

if characters above them can't even each that, then yeah, it is.

There are no valid anti feats outside of arguments from incredulity.

so there are no valid arguments, except for the valid argument? what?

I am done with the "I like X verse but I don't see them as being that strong" stuff.

people have differing opinions. oh well. so what? we can't debate because we think differently?

What heck is happening here?

a lot

 

[StrymULTRA]

if characters above them can't even each that, then yeah, it is.

Alright, show some anti feats which are not magic attacks. I mean stuff which objectively can't be above MHS+.

Next is what, Hyper Goner being invalid because Frisk can't dodge Asriel's lightning attacks without aim dodging?

 

[Dragonite007]

if characters above them can't even each that, then yeah, it is.

Ok, here my two cents.

What are the arguments to this being a outlier? What are the anti-feats?

Remembering that inconsistency in the scale could just be the author not knowing how strong or fast was the feat he did

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Agree. If Asriel actually was Immeasurable, or even 2-B, then we wouldn't be able to die to Alphys

 

[KingNanaya]

Next is what, Hyper Goner being invalid because Frisk can't dodge Asriel's lightning attacks without aim dodging?

don't give me ideas, lil bro

Alright, show some anti feats which are not magic attacks. I mean stuff which objectively can't be above MHS+.

I mean, it'll take me a while, and I really ain't the best at math, so I wouldn't be able to calc it properly. so uhh... yeah

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Whataoutism my ass, the wiki does this for literally every verse here.

False
It's a case by case basis​

You are literally switching arguments out of desperation lmfao. This is saying all.

I didn't!
I told you in Discord, I was never ACTIVELY FIGHTING for outliers
I told you very explicitly
"I asked Therefir to verify and give his opinion if it qualifies for outliers"
I implied I had a problem with the gap IN THE OP

My main point was how Undertale lacks the AP to classify for MHS+ electricity
How the KE is individual to each leg

No, I'm sick of it!




Well, now that I don't have to engage with this no more
I will edit OP to reflect the accepted changes so far and call in more staff​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Regarding the use of 5 legs, note that I suggested using only 1 leg because the legs are not technically connected, so their mass is separated, and Frisk can be moderately injured by a single leg.

As I further elaborated on this point, no other attacks from MTT have more or less damage than this single leg damage, so I believe MTT should not scale.
Can you give me your input on it?

 

[ShionAH]

UT threads trying not to derail themselves into other verse topics