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Undertale - Downgrades are wack

QrowBarr said:
Ignoring the shitstorm that went by, what's the consensus here so far?
Click to expand...
Sun feat is wrong
Mettaton EX leg feat has incorrect pixelscaling originally

What we currently need to discuss is:
  • MTT's feat should scale to all 5 legs or just one.
  • MHS+ has the minimum AP necessary to scale to real life lightning.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Sun feat is wrong
Mettaton EX leg feat has incorrect pixelscaling originally

What we currently need to discuss is:
  • MTT's feat should scale to all 5 legs or just one.
  • MHS+ has the minimum AP necessary to scale to real life lightning.
Click to expand...
I don't think that AP is the issue with the lightning calc.

I think the issue is that the cloud is half a meter across, shoots lightning for a few meters, and the "lightning" that it shoots behaves nothing at all like real lightning.

Lightning shouldn't be considered cloud-to-ground because it has a vaguely cloud-like sprite and appropriate AP.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't think that AP is the issue with the lightning calc.

I think the issue is that the cloud is half a meter across, shoots lightning for a few meters, and the "lightning" that it shoots behaves nothing at all like real lightning.

Lightning shouldn't be considered cloud-to-ground because it has a vaguely cloud-like sprite and appropriate AP.
Click to expand...
Undertale has an already established and accepted case where magic is accepted to mimick real life elements to perfection, though. How would you acknowledge that?
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Undertale has an already established and accepted case where magic is accepted to mimick real life elements to perfection, though. How would you acknowledge that?
Click to expand...
Mimicking some things well =/= literally every single attack is exactly the same as our association with the object IRL, no matter how many aspects of it indicate otherwise.

I don't think they all need to land in the same bucket. And if you decide that we do, then there's more cases where they don't match up (this cloud/lightning feat, the sun also discussed in this thread, the dog's bark literally being shaped as the text BARK, bombs exploding in four directions) than there are cases where they do match up (fire, bones) and for both of those it's only barely, considering that fire IRL does not come in little orbs, and both fire and bones don't disappear when you touch them..

I am not trying to remove the acceptance of the fire/bone/sound attacks. I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't group them all together as 100% matching up IRL, when things indicate otherwise.

I also think it's nonsensical to consider them matching IRL when they visually are completely different, and contextually, would make no sense acting as they do IRL. Vulkin was not making clouds 2km tall, and 4km wide underneath a mountain, in a region where water evaporates instantly.
 
Agnaa said:
Mimicking some things well =/= literally every single attack is exactly the same as our association with the object IRL, no matter how many aspects of it indicate otherwise.

I don't think they all need to land in the same bucket. And if you decide that we do, then there's more cases where they don't match up (this cloud/lightning feat, the sun also discussed in this thread, the dog's bark literally being shaped as the text BARK, bombs exploding in four directions) than there are cases where they do match up (fire, bones) and for both of those it's only barely, considering that fire IRL does not come in little orbs, and both fire and bones don't disappear when you touch them..

I am not trying to remove the acceptance of the fire/bone/sound attacks. I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't group them all together as 100% matching up IRL, when things indicate otherwise.

I also think it's nonsensical to consider them matching IRL when they visually are completely different, and contextually, would make no sense acting as they do IRL. Vulkin was not making clouds 2km tall, and 4km wide underneath a mountain, in a region where water evaporates instantly.
Click to expand...
I'm just pointing out what's currently accepted
I agree, my OP already establishes that I disagree with magic mimicking plasma and nuclear fusion.
Thing about fire, is that it's just heat, it's just energy, it's easier to mimick

Sound attacks are just vibrations too

But if you disagree with Vulkin's electricity being like real electricity, you mean even the supersonic calcs are not viable in your opinion?​
 
I think the easier argument, with our current standards, is to say that it's at the very least not cloud-to-ground lightning.

I also think that unrealistic electricity shouldn't be given Supersonic speeds, but it seems like that isn't how our standards operate right now.
 
Agnaa said:
I think the easier argument, with our current standards, is to say that it's at the very least not cloud-to-ground lightning.

I also think that unrealistic electricity shouldn't be given Supersonic speeds, but it seems like that isn't how our standards operate right now.
Click to expand...
Well

ll, i'll take it
 
Agnaa said:
I don't think that AP is the issue with the lightning calc.

I think the issue is that the cloud is half a meter across, shoots lightning for a few meters, and the "lightning" that it shoots behaves nothing at all like real lightning.

Lightning shouldn't be considered cloud-to-ground because it has a vaguely cloud-like sprite and appropriate AP.
Click to expand...
Agnaa said:
Mimicking some things well =/= literally every single attack is exactly the same as our association with the object IRL, no matter how many aspects of it indicate otherwise.

I don't think they all need to land in the same bucket. And if you decide that we do, then there's more cases where they don't match up (this cloud/lightning feat, the sun also discussed in this thread, the dog's bark literally being shaped as the text BARK, bombs exploding in four directions) than there are cases where they do match up (fire, bones) and for both of those it's only barely, considering that fire IRL does not come in little orbs, and both fire and bones don't disappear when you touch them..

I am not trying to remove the acceptance of the fire/bone/sound attacks. I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't group them all together as 100% matching up IRL, when things indicate otherwise.

I also think it's nonsensical to consider them matching IRL when they visually are completely different, and contextually, would make no sense acting as they do IRL. Vulkin was not making clouds 2km tall, and 4km wide underneath a mountain, in a region where water evaporates instantly.
Click to expand...
Agnaa said:
Real clouds don't have smiley faces.
Click to expand...


Don't let Agnaa see the Pizza Tower profiles
 
idk, has there been any staff disagreement?

Plus, I thought we were still waiting for the Mettaton KE thing. But ig the rest could be pushed out earlier.
 
Tbf at least the one in PT sorta behaves like one, meanwhile the one here moves in several bullet patterns, so no surprise it gets the hammer. Agreeing with Agnaa's reasons on this one + sun feat removal.

For the others, I guess we oughtta get the Mettaton stuff done, but I think that already has a separate thread on its own right?
 
Yeah, we're waiting for that separate thread.
 
Yeah, MTT is a separate thing, the thread got accepted but deciding which new calc is being used is entirely separate. I will apply the remaining changes.

Should we revert to the older version of the MHS+ calculations by default?
 
I won't apply the changes now
Turns out the results of MTT's thread is
crucial
to basically the entire god tier scaling. So it's best to NOT have to edit that blog twice.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Should we revert to the older version of the MHS+ calculations by default?
Click to expand...
wdym? Another MHS+ rating? Is it also based on assuming cloud-to-ground lightning?
 
idk whether that's true or not, the standards on that are unclear and have changed.

It might help to write a list of who agreed/disagreed, then we can ask someone like Ant if that's enough agreement.
 
Question, taking the AP the sun should generating in energy and converting toget the amount of energy It would generate if was the size of knight knight star would make sense?
 
Therefir said:
Alright I'm back.

You mean the Supersonic+/Hypersonic values right?

By the way, I calculated Frisk's speed at Supersonic+ comparing them to the meteors, still slower than Tsunderplane's calc.
Click to expand...
Very consistent!​
Jason_Courne said:
Shouldn't we use the ablation speeds on the Calculations page for Knight Knight's meteors? Why are we using the Mach 5 value?
Click to expand...
2000m/s instead of 1718m/s is basically nothing

AND, the meteor isn't big enough for this to be considered. This is a meteoroid,
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
2000m/s instead of 1718m/s is basically nothing

AND, the meteor isn't big enough for this to be considered. This is a meteoroid,
Click to expand...
Nah but 4000 m/s does
But realistically, I think it's just a better value (even if it makes virtually no difference), and I think you confused meteor for asteroid (an asteroid killed the dinosaurs, a meteor is just the fireball created by a meteoroid)
 
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