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UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

There’s the whole thing where Kris has a save file under their name before you override it which is what I assumed was the main point
 
My posts have been about Undertale, not Deltarune.

this is why the threads shouldn't have been merged
 
xd

Anyway about Kris and saves, I think that's wayyyyy too vague right now to give anything. Deltarune's in pretty much the same spot as every other video game, when it comes to saves being canon. It being a thing in Undertale is pretty dubious as supporting evidence goes. I'd just wait for more chapters where we'll almost certainly get something more explicit.
 
deltarune is obviously gonna have meta game mechanics and stuff
as long as we come to a general consensus on that, it should be fine to slap on all the “possibly this likely that” stuff for what we do similar to undertale
 
I mean it will, I just don't think it has enough for it yet.
 
I'm fine waiting as well, Chapter 3-4-5 will most likely come out next year, that's 3 chapters of content.
 
Wait this was still a matter of confusion? Yes it's obvious that Frisk isn't doing anything here, it's all the Player. That was heavily implied back in Undertale and confirmed by Deltarune. Frisk and Kris are puppets that we use to play the game, the powers they have are actually being used through them by the Player.
 
I'm gonna make a big post about it later to explain stuff to people that still don't get it kekw. Too busy rn and I can type faster on my laptop.
 
I think the evidence for that is a lot stronger in Deltarune.

But for Undertale itself, from the arguments I've heard so far, it seems like Frisk probably has the DT themselves.
 
The red soul emanating Determination is the soul of the Player. To begin with, Chara in their dialogue at the end of the Genocide Route blatantly says that their "human soul" and their "determination" were not theirs, but ours, and obviously they are speaking to the Player in this instance, doubt I need to explain that, but if I do; 1. They are looking directly at us. 2. Frisk is nowhere to be seen. And 3. Chara still speaks to us after destroying the entire world including Frisk (in which Frisk is completely gone yet they still ask for OUR soul, not Frisk's). Furthermore they offer to bring the world back upon receiving the Player's soul, which they do, but from there on Chara will appear at the end of any True Pacifist Route and remind us of the consequences of Genocide, and that even we, a being that treats the world of Undertale as a game, are not above the consequences we make for ourselves.

If it's a topic of contention here as well; The ability to manipulate time belongs to the Player. We know this for a fact seeing as Flowey literally requests that we leave "Frisk" alone to live in peace with the Monster's and don't reset the world again. No debate there, it is NOT Frisk's power.

The link between the 3 is very simple. At the start of Undertale's in-universe story, Frisk fell into Mount Ebott. At some point during, briefly before, or briefly after this event, our soul connects to Frisk, starting the game that we play. Frisk lands on the bed of flowers that Chara's corpse lies beneath, and when this happens, the Determination of the Player's soul resonates with Chara's rotting body, and the small essence remaining of the first fallen human is given existence again. With no body or soul, Chara exists merely as an abstract force throughout the game, residing around the soul of the player as an entity. On Genocide, our Determination and the LOVE we gain empowers Chara, feeds them like a battery, allowing them to also occasionally override the control of the Player over the body of Frisk and possess them briefly, and by the end they become powerful enough to destroy the entire world and the game itself, and the only way to bring it back is by giving them our soul. In doing this, Chara essentially becomes godly, and would thus have access to all the abilities of the Player's soul, which includes time manipulation and the like.

It's worth mentioning as well that Determination is usually mentioned as more of a power source that all human beings possess, and that Monster's can rarely obtain if they have a will strong enough. Determination is the strongest form of power in the game. Considering that the soul traits are named after various different emotions, it's easy to presume that one based on Determination would be rather special and unique. Furthermore, clearly the red soul of Determination is vastly more powerful than the regular human souls, as just the red soul is capable of matching the power of 7 human souls combined.

In addition to all of this, the fact that we know the red soul seen in Deltarune is the Player's is very blatant confirmation when you add it to the other evidence listed. You can't view these things separately, as they are all supposed to be put together in order to form the larger narrative. The soul used in Deltarune looks the exact same as in Undertale, because the Player of the game is the same being, thus there is no reason the soul would be different.

Within the "Tobyverse", as it were, there canonically exists a Player entity representing us in a very literal sense, and the representation of our soul in-game is the red soul, which is capable of possessing certain people within certain worlds, who we can then use our abilities through and control to our every whim.

Frisk probably has Determination, but it is NOT they who possesses the power to manipulate time, to come back from death, or really the majority of abilities they are given credit for. Pretty much the only feat that can be attributed to Frisk alone is surviving the fall into Mount Ebott. But there is literally no reason why they can't keep all of the abilities on their profile, because at the end of the day, the abilities are being used THROUGH them. I would just add a new key if you want to be particular about it.
 
There's also a neat theory that could be made that Frisk is, in a way, sort of actually Chara throughout most of the game. The theory goes that Frisk died or is completely taken over and their subconsciousness utterly suppressed at the start of the game, our soul possessed them, and Chara, revived by our Determination, entered the body of the human as well. The reasoning for this theory is because it is said MANY times throughout the game that Frisk, even in terms of expressions, looks just like Chara. It's believed that doing a Pacifist Route sort of "restores" Frisk or gives them freedom again, whereas doing a Genocide Route gives Chara full dominion over Frisk's body and essentially kills Frisk slowly, which is why Chara fully manifests at the end of Genocide, because according to the theory, the form we see Chara in is a completely transformed version of Frisk's body.

I think the theory is 100% wrong but it's pretty cool.
 
Those are some very interesting points you brought up. I've added some to my summary post above. But there's one part I want to respond to.
RinneItachi said:
But there is literally no reason why they can't keep all of the abilities on their profile, because at the end of the day, the abilities are being used THROUGH them. I would just add a new key if you want to be particular about it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think that, at the least, there should be some sort of key/optional equipment separation, since we do know that there are times where Frisk seems to be without the player (i.e. after the end of True Pacifist).
 
I honestly think that Toby Fox realized the whole Player/Avatar distinction later into Undertale's development and decided to expand it further in Deltarune which is why it's way more vague un UT...
 
I forgot to mention it, but the way Flowey/Asriel and Chara "come back" are parallels of each other. Asriel died and his essence was spread onto a bed of flowers that were dear to him, the whole thing is foreshadowed by one of the books in Snowdin's Library, in which one of the books says this;

"(It’s a school report about monster funerals.)

Monster funerals, technically speaking, are cool as heck.

When monsters get old and kick the bucket, they turn into dust.

At funerals, we take that dust and spread it on that person’s favorite thing.

Then their essence will live on in that thing...

Uhhh, am I at the page minimum yet? I’m kinda sick of writing this."

One of those flowers was taken by Alphys for an experiment with Determination, so as to see what would happen should a flower be injected with Determination. Inadvertently creating Flowey. Flowey is simply the small fragments of what used to be Asriel, taken form in a flower and given life by Determination, but without a soul.

On the other hand, Toriel retrieved Chara's corpse from their coffin in New Home and buried them underneath the patch of flowers where they fell into the Underground, presumably the best event that happened in their short life even if it was for a negative reason. The Determination of the Player's soul was so powerful that even without a form to return to, Chara was brought out of the abyss and back into the world of the living, without a body, but technically, with a soul, even if not belonging to them (yet).

Recon1511 said:
I honestly think that Toby Fox realized the whole Player/Avatar distinction later into Undertale's development and decided to expand it further in Deltarune which is why it's way more vague un UT...
Click to expand...
I like that idea. But it's extremely unlikely, as it's heavily suggested that the more large, grandiose story of these universes and probably Gaster on a meta level has been in the works since the early 2010's. I base that on the fact that back in the Kickstarter days, there was artwork from Toby Fox that literally had Deltarune characters in it. Not to mention Toby confirmed that he was working on Deltarune characters way back in 2014. I feel like the more big-picture side of the story was probably what started it all to begin with. The cool idea that Toby got in his head one day, which is what he expanded into this series we now know. Wild to say it but tbh I don't think that the idea of Undertale was what started it.

Hell, what really emphasizes this "vibe" I have about it is this FF VII theme.



finalfantasy.fandom.com

Gast Faremis

Gast Faremis is a minor, yet important character in Final Fantasy VII. A biologist, he used to be the head of Shinra's Science Research Department. Unlike his colleagues, the later successor Professor Hojo and Dr. Hollander, Gast pursued wisdom for its own sake, rather than using it to gain...
finalfantasy.fandom.com finalfantasy.fandom.com

Hmmm. An incredibly intelligent yet mysterious scientist. What a familiar name, I can't quite pinpoint what it reminds me of...
 
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RinneItachi said:
I like that idea. But it's extremely unlikely, as it's heavily suggested that the more large, grandiose story of these universes and probably Gaster on a meta level has been in the works since the early 2010's. I base that on the fact that back in the Kickstarter days, there was artwork from Toby Fox that literally had Deltarune characters in it. Not to mention Toby confirmed that he was working on Deltarune characters way back in 2014. I feel like the more big-picture side of the story was probably what started it all to begin with. The cool idea that Toby got in his head one day, which is what he expanded into this series we now know. Wild to say it but tbh I don't think that the idea of Undertale was what started it.
Click to expand...
Undertale was just the test run for deltarune’s elements, it was practice for the real show.
 
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Agnaa said:
Frisk has the DT:
  • The fight with the amalgam that starts because of a SAVE point gets weird if you don't think that Frisk can actually see/interact with them.
    • One of the amalgam fights with an enemy notification; these could just be fourth wall breaks rather than highly literal events.
  • Flowey got Determination from Alphys' experiments, which extracted them from human SOULs. Would the small amount that went into Flowey, instead of the other amalgams, really have been enough to outweigh Frisk's entire human SOUL-worth?
    • Maybe. None of the amalgams seem to have time powers, so perhaps Flowey got a bit more, perhaps from Asriel/Chara's death?
    • Also, there were six SOULs available to extract it from, if Alphys used more than one sixth of the determination on Flowey, he could've plausibly ended up with the most.
  • Asriel needs to defeat Frisk to gain control of the timeline.
  • Frisk remembers the resets, and tells Asgore how many times they die.
Click to expand...
Oh wait THESE were the arguments for Frisk having the DT powers. Didn't notice lmao.

The Amalgamates are supposed to look weird, uncanny, and scary, and most of them appear to fight us through very weird means, including shapeshifting. It's pretty silly to say that one turned into a SAVE star. Not to mention the Memory Head's have very glitchy-like appearance and mannerisms. Furthermore, the SAVE star itself literally forms a smile, turns white, and then turns into the Amalgamate seamlessly. The Amalgamates are supposed to be weird and mysterious creatures, it's their whole gimmick. But besides ALL of that, I don't doubt at all that Frisk can see the SAVE files. Again. The powers do not belong to Frisk, but we use most of them THROUGH Frisk. As the vessel of our soul, Frisk is thus deeply connected to our soul. While they are not in control, Frisk is sort of our avatar of sorts. So of course it's reasonable that Frisk could see the SAVE files that we control regardless.

Yes. Nothing contradicts it. We don't know how much Determination the average human in Undertale possesses, just that they do. Not to mention it probably varies by human soul to human soul, and we don't know which one(s) were used, among MANY other factors. And we know literally nothing about Frisk besides some of their appearance and such. That's just gonna end up resulting in a Burden of Proof circumstance.

Asriel needs/wants to defeat Frisk, but that argument falls flat when you consider that defeating Frisk is equivalent to defeating the Player. The Player can't do anything in the universe of Undertale without a vessel, and presumably, Frisk is the ONLY vessel the Player can control, for whatever reason. And if Frisk is being controlled and empowered by the Player (which they are underneath the other side of the argument), then Asriel needing/wanting to defeat Frisk isn't really contradicting it.

Same as with the Amalgamate SAVE file debate. Frisk is our vessel, so it's more than reasonable that they are at least aware of our abilities and of what's happening.
 
Oh brother.

All characters with DT capable of rewinding time should have EE resistance. I'm surprised this still hasn't been added. Tbh Undertale pages can use so many changes.

Idk if the Imgur link will work. I tried uploading the images directly but the message was massive when I posted it so had to do this instead.


 
Homie that's not EE resistance, that's just flowery language for committing suicide. He uses a bunch of euphemisms there; "left this mortal coil", "what happens when you...", "I brought myself to the edge of death".

Even if we accept that he suddenly has EE capable of erasing himself, rewinding time to get back from that isn't resistance, it's still just time manip.
 
I think Asriel and Chara should have prob, fate, plot and other manipulation coming from The Prophecy.
Gonna elaborate later, but it's some real stuff.
 
About The Prophecy.
Do you guys remember the "Angel who seen the surface will return, and underground will become empty"? Me too.
But why assuming that it's actually means something? Oh boy, there's actually a lot of more.
Blasting off instantly with Fangamer "Darkpin" merch description, basically quoting The Prophecy. Of course you can say that it's not canon because Toby said so and it's just a merch... But, Toby said only that UNDERTALE'S merch ain't canon, not whole UT/DR series, and to be fair, there was no DR at that time, so dunno.
But also it worth to note that Deltarune isn't really a different universe, but a "parallel story"(Steam description), meaning that it's the same UT world, but with twisted story coming across. But why The Prophecy still matters? It matters, a lot. Because in Deltarune.com in 2017 period, there was a page saying "THREE HEROES APPEARED TO BANISH THE ANGEL'S HEAVEN". I will reference it later, but just keep it in mind.


...Gaster has ACTUAL rights over UNDERTALE and DELTARUNE https://trademarks.justia.com/owners/royal-sciences-llc-3216820/ and also it was referenced a lot, that Gaster isn't some in-universe character fodder no-feat, but pretty much important dude. In the files of the game, there's abc123.ogg stuff, which is basically using the Gaster voice(wngdng.gg), and Gaster references it as the game. In the code, there's a lot of Gaster writings, statting from ABC, for example Demonabc special dialogue and stuff. Even in Debug mode, if you do some silly stuff, Gaster will appear laughing at you and saying "...", then crash the game.

In Deltarune, Twitter event blasted off, basically saying that Gaster invited you, the Player in the Game to create a "NEW FUTURE" with you, yes, it can be said that Twitter ain't canon, but it was said only about "tweets", while Gaster event affected whole account.
Gaster also wrote Terms of Agreements and stuff, which is basically "YOU ACCEPT EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN FROM NOW ON", and in the code, there's a lot of stuff confirming that Gaster wrote the code stuff, basically confirming that DR is even way more meta than Undertale.

But how The Prophecy still relates to it? Obviously. Gaster said that he wanted to create a new future, and he still claims himself as a royal scientist, basically saying that he still serves the Monsters, and in 2017 he basically said "I want to kill Angel". But why he can't kill The Prophecy himself? Well, he can't.

In genocide route, all FUN events are restricted and no longer available, even mysteryman and clamgirl aren't there, as well as others, while they say that they came from the different world. The Prophecy simply blocks them from disrupting the process probably.

And also Angel in UT presented themselves as a Multiversal ending creature, which will appear no matter what. In Deltarune, Gaster likely planned to make the better world(there was no war probably, basically meaning it's a better scenario than UNDERTALE) and Angel is still here.

They're still present. So Gaster created a "second" prophecy, where Delta Warriors will destroy the ANGEL'S HEAVEN. And even called Player to help him.
 
I hope my English level was good enough to actually make it readable
 
It's readable, but I don't see why Asriel/Chara would get abilities from that.
 
Agnaa said:
It's readable, but I don't see why Asriel/Chara would get abilities from that.
Click to expand...
If one of them exist in the timeline, they probably will be protected by The Prophecy

Like, treat this as JoJo stand lmao
 
Doesn't seem explicit enough.

Seems as vague as 98% of prophecies in fiction that we don't index.
 
If Kris had the SOUL/Player as equipment, would they be able to use all the abilities that the player posseses?
 
Agnaa said:
Doesn't seem explicit enough.

Seems as vague as 98% of prophecies in fiction that we don't index.
Click to expand...
Well, in UT/DR verse it's actually a threat it seems.

Killing the Angel is kinda the reason why Player was called in Twitter
 
Agnaa said:
Homie that's not EE resistance, that's just flowery language for committing suicide. He uses a bunch of euphemisms there; "left this mortal coil", "what happens when you...", "I brought myself to the edge of death".

Even if we accept that he suddenly has EE capable of erasing himself, rewinding time to get back from that isn't resistance, it's still just time manip.
Click to expand...
Resistance would be poor wording, but nonetheless it deserves mentioning. That being erased from existence doesn't stop a DT user from coming back anyways. Considering that all it takes is the will to go back and nothing more this would reasonably even work on things like sealing as long as the sealing doesn't nullify powers or suppress thoughts.

Being erased from existence is still just dying, but on a greater level. Flowey has no soul, so presuming that his body is completely destroyed and he dies, that isn't really any different from EE like Hakai, but it still would not stop him from coming back. Flowey is saying that the lingering dregs of will to return and escape something is all that is needed to go back in time. I feel like that should be noted.
 
RinneItachi said:
Oh wait THESE were the arguments for Frisk having the DT powers. Didn't notice lmao.

The Amalgamates are supposed to look weird, uncanny, and scary, and most of them appear to fight us through very weird means, including shapeshifting. It's pretty silly to say that one turned into a SAVE star. Not to mention the Memory Head's have very glitchy-like appearance and mannerisms. Furthermore, the SAVE star itself literally forms a smile, turns white, and then turns into the Amalgamate seamlessly. The Amalgamates are supposed to be weird and mysterious creatures, it's their whole gimmick. But besides ALL of that, I don't doubt at all that Frisk can see the SAVE files. Again. The powers do not belong to Frisk, but we use most of them THROUGH Frisk. As the vessel of our soul, Frisk is thus deeply connected to our soul. While they are not in control, Frisk is sort of our avatar of sorts. So of course it's reasonable that Frisk could see the SAVE files that we control regardless.

Yes. Nothing contradicts it. We don't know how much Determination the average human in Undertale possesses, just that they do. Not to mention it probably varies by human soul to human soul, and we don't know which one(s) were used, among MANY other factors. And we know literally nothing about Frisk besides some of their appearance and such. That's just gonna end up resulting in a Burden of Proof circumstance.

Asriel needs/wants to defeat Frisk, but that argument falls flat when you consider that defeating Frisk is equivalent to defeating the Player. The Player can't do anything in the universe of Undertale without a vessel, and presumably, Frisk is the ONLY vessel the Player can control, for whatever reason. And if Frisk is being controlled and empowered by the Player (which they are underneath the other side of the argument), then Asriel needing/wanting to defeat Frisk isn't really contradicting it.

Same as with the Amalgamate SAVE file debate. Frisk is our vessel, so it's more than reasonable that they are at least aware of our abilities and of what's happening.
Click to expand...
More importantly, any response to these things?
 
Originlima said:
Well, in UT/DR verse it's actually a threat it seems.

Killing the Angel is kinda the reason why Player was called in Twitter
Click to expand...
(Imagine if somehow Player will become L1c again, Gaster scales to it and then The Prophecy scales above Gaster 💀)
 
I don't think DR Player can be comparable to UT Player because the whole thing with Noelle goes against that.
 
On the subject of Player Vs. Frisk DT again. I'm quite confident that there is more evidence suggesting the former than the latter.
 
Also Flowey saying that its US not Frisk with Legends of Localisation also saying this stuff.
 
It's also explicitly implied that the other humans have access to Save and Load, and that they just eventually gave up fighting Asgore.
 
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