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UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

Therefir said:
It's also explicitly implied that the other humans have access to Save and Load, and that they just eventually gave up fighting Asgore.
Click to expand...
When? Thought it was rather implied that most of them died to Asgore's forces and like 1 or 2 actually made it to him. It's also extremely unlikely they would lose to Asgore if they had so much DT.
 
Lynieryz said:
Doesn't Snowgrave make clear that the Player doesn't have power over the world unlike Noelle?
Click to expand...
The Player only has control over a specific vessel, in that case being Kris. And through that vessel they can act and manipulate other beings as well, but can't take over them directly. That's about the same as in Undertale.
 
RinneItachi said:
We don't know the details of it.
Click to expand...
It's pretty clear tbh
Do you think you are the only one with that power?
The power to reshape the world…
Purely by your own determination.
The ability to play God!
The ability to “SAVE.”
I thought I was the only one with that power. But…
I can’t SAVE anymore.
Apparently YOUR desires for this world override MINE.
Well well.
Enjoy that power while you can.
I’ll be watching.
Click to expand...
RinneItachi said:
When? Thought it was rather implied that most of them died to Asgore's forces and like 1 or 2 actually made it to him. It's also extremely unlikely they would lose to Asgore if they had so much DT.
Click to expand...
1. Flowey got the ability from the DT that he was injected with. Which came from the other fallen humans, and which all human have
2. Toriel mentions how she often feels she already knows the fallen humans, implying that they actually did use SAVE and LOAD
3. Asgore does not question Frisk’s comments about dying more than once to him
CJ6Go1h.png
Fcd5BwH.png

HINKfMt.png
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
It's pretty clear tbh


1. Flowey got the ability from the DT that he was injected with. Which came from the other fallen humans, and which all human have
2. Toriel mentions how she often feels she already knows the fallen humans, implying that they actually did use SAVE and LOAD
3. Asgore does not question Frisk’s comments about dying more than once to him
CJ6Go1h.png
Fcd5BwH.png

HINKfMt.png
Click to expand...
Fair enough. Good points.

Still, this doesn't necessarily mean much in regards to Frisk Vs. the Player. It just can be used as a suggestion for the fact that it's not out of reach that Frisk could potentially use this power themselves. But nonetheless I'd say that the implications of it being the Player's power still very much outweighs the contrary.

Also I wasn't saying the details on Flowey's time manipulation weren't clear, more the details on the Determination he received.
 
It's far more likely that The Player simply got more DT than the Frisk or anyone else in the Verse, than Reset being only Player's ability.
 
Originlima said:
It's far more likely that The Player simply got more DT than the Frisk or anyone else in the Verse, than Reset being only Player's ability.
Click to expand...
Well yeah of course. I never said that only the player can manipulate time. Just that the red soul is the Player's soul, and that Frisk themselves is only our vessel, not the user of the plethora of abilities they've been credited for.
 
RinneItachi said:
Well yeah of course. I never said that only the player can manipulate time. Just that the red soul is the Player's soul, and that Frisk themselves is only our vessel, not the user of the plethora of abilities they've been credited for.
Click to expand...
Well, I think that this is really different case than the Kris.
Frisk wasn't really the one holding all those powers after all, as claimed in Legends of Localisation.
But, in Kris' case, bro actually got their own save file, and it would be really uninteresting to assume that it's just an Easter egg than anything else. Like c'mon, it's still UNDERTALE game series, with meta aspect being too much of meta(WHOLE GASTER LORE LMAO)
 
The 8th anniversary is coming in only 12 days. Toby says that he won't be doing anything but that Fangamer has something exciting.
 
I have an urge to prepare an absurdly gigantic wall of text about all the Undertale/Deltarune mystery lore and all possible theories pertaining to it for the Undertale 8th anniversary, just for a maximum of 2 people to read it (myself being one of them).
 
RinneItachi said:
I have an urge to prepare an absurdly gigantic wall of text about all the Undertale/Deltarune mystery lore and all possible theories pertaining to it for the Undertale 8th anniversary, just for a maximum of 2 people to read it (myself being one of them).
Click to expand...
I'm number 2 btw
 
Personally I just cannot get over all of the religious implications and I can't stop thinking about how Toby will use them going forward. Gaster basically representing the number 6, Noelle being an "angel", the multiple uses of the word Heaven in tandem with someone named the "Angel" from time to time, the presence of a church in Deltarune, the obvious connections people have made since years ago about how some of Undertale's main cast are very similar to beings from Hell, in parallel to the whole in-universe myth in Undertale about an Angel coming to save the Monster's in some vague way, and so on. Not to mention the whole thing of "light" and "dark", with Noelle being a powerful "Lightner" and Gaster's whole thing being darkness, there's just something there.

I mean, literally everything related to Gaster has to do with the number 6. 6 letter's in his name, the requirement of a 66 FUN value to get a secret room that only has a 10% chance of the door that leads to who is most likely Gaster, his stats being exclusively composed of 6's, the presence of 6 of Spamton's former friends in a scene that very blatantly implies that it was Gaster speaking to Spamton over the phone, I could go on. And obviously "666" is called the Number of the Beast, and is typically used as a reference to or representation of the Devil. For Toby to very obviously make 6 specifically as a number centered around Gaster in his games is absolutely not a coincidence even remotely. Keep in mind, one possible relevance to this is that Gaster presumably fell into the Core (though it could have been something else). The Core is constructed in Hotland's, a place filled with fire, lava, and a material that would be considered similar to brimstone, the most common elements of what people depict Hell as looking like. And then you have the whole gimmick of "falling", with Lucifer being a fallen angel. Like man I could literally go on for hours about this.
 
The one thing that I wonder about is Gaster's infamous Entry Number 17. Like maybe it really doesn't matter, but with how Toby Fox is so absurdly, obscenely careful with how he structures things, it would not be a stretch to say that the number 17 might be especially significant.
 
RinneItachi said:
Btw what are your thoughts on Gaster? Like what do you think he's gonna be like.
Click to expand...
I think he's definitely probably not going to be an antagonist.
One of the first thing he says is "I look forward to creating a new future with you"
then helps make the vessel (until the mysterious person (could be genocide route chara for reasons I won't get into) interrupts it.)
I mean, we've never actually seen or heard of Gaster doing anything bad, so it wouldn't be a strech to say that he might even be a good guy considering he's pretty cooperative. Sure, he caused Spamton and Jevil to exist, but at the same time they were just given information, and they went their own ways. Spamton is barely even an antagonist at points, and kind of tries to work together with Kris, and Jevil, while he is aggressive, doesn't really fight out of any malice or anything, just out of freedom.
He also seems to be the one who delivered the prophecy to Ralsei, so if we consider Ralsei to be in the same boat as spamton and jevil, then there are probably some implications there as well.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I think he's definitely probably not going to be an antagonist.
One of the first thing he says is "I look forward to creating a new future with you"
then helps make the vessel (until the mysterious person (could be genocide route chara for reasons I won't get into) interrupts it.)
I mean, we've never actually seen or heard of Gaster doing anything bad, so it wouldn't be a strech to say that he might even be a good guy considering he's pretty cooperative. Sure, he caused Spamton and Jevil to exist, but at the same time they were just given information, and they went their own ways. Spamton is barely even an antagonist at points, and kind of tries to work together with Kris, and Jevil, while he is aggressive, doesn't really fight out of any malice or anything, just out of freedom.
He also seems to be the one who delivered the prophecy to Ralsei, so if we consider Ralsei to be in the same boat as spamton and jevil, then there are probably some implications there as well.
Click to expand...
I generally agree. I think that Gaster is going to be built-up as some kind of mysterious and menacing force that will look like a possible antagonist, and that it might have already started, and that there may even be religious implications involved, but he actually turns out to be a decent person, but maybe with some questionable interests, beliefs, and motivations. An extremely morally gray character. No hero, but certainly not a villain. He's just doing as he pleases, he has no intent to harm others but doesn't really care about others in any real way, either. That's just my guess. However I would love it if Gaster ended up being a secret hero going against an unknown, lingering threat.

And yeah about that one...it's really hard for me to pinpoint that. On one hand, the manner of speech, the beliefs/mindset being displayed, and the format, are uncannily similar to Chara. Hell, it's even been said that the Japanese translations of it look incredibly similar, if not even identical, to Chara's text in Undertale. Furthermore, it is logical that, if the soul in question is the Player's soul (which it almost certainly is), then well, why WOULDN'T Chara be brought over? Remember, when our soul revived Chara, ripping them out of the abyss, Chara was forever bound to our soul, and because our soul was attached to Frisk, it was a weird three-party scenario where Chara was bound to Frisk as well, kind of like a "spirit", but not a wandering soul so much as a present force, representing the essence of someone that once existed in the world. If the bind between our soul and the revived essence of Chara is strong enough, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Chara would have transferred over to Deltarune when our soul did.

The issues with this theory however are simply that Toby really, REALLY emphasizes that, while there are connections between the two games, Deltarune is its own thing. While he could be exaggerating to avoid spoilers, it would be made into a blatant lie by this theory being correct, as an Undertale character would explicitly have a huge impact on Deltarune's "mystery" plot. Not to mention, depending on interpretation, it would like, technically make the Genocide Route canon to Deltarune, which is just a big no, but I don't think that needs to be the case for the voice to be Chara.

Personally I don't think that it is Chara, but I kind of want it to be. I'm a bit of a nostalgia lover.
 
RinneItachi said:
I generally agree. I think that Gaster is going to be built-up as some kind of mysterious and menacing force that will look like a possible antagonist, and that it might have already started, and that there may even be religious implications involved, but he actually turns out to be a decent person, but maybe with some questionable interests, beliefs, and motivations. An extremely morally gray character. No hero, but certainly not a villain. He's just doing as he pleases, he has no intent to harm others but doesn't really care about others in any real way, either. That's just my guess.
Click to expand...
Considering that he seems to be in the same realm as like the player, it might be that his "experiment" involves his perspective of viewing the world as fiction somewhat, which could be a good comparison to how a player can be as morally questionable or kind as they want, and just experimenting with the world.
RinneItachi said:
And yeah about that one...it's really hard for me to pinpoint that. On one hand, the manner of speech, the beliefs/mindset being displayed, and the format, are uncannily similar to Chara. Hell, it's even been said that the Japanese translations of it look incredibly similar, if not even identical, to Chara's text in Undertale. Furthermore, it is logical that, if the soul in question is the Player's soul (which it almost certainly is), then well, why WOULDN'T Chara be brought over? Remember, when our soul revived Chara, ripping them out of the abyss, Chara was forever bound to our soul, and because our soul was attached to Frisk, it was a weird three-party scenario where Chara was bound to Frisk as well, kind of like a "spirit", but not a wandering soul so much as a present force, representing the essence of someone that once existed in the world. If the bind between our soul and the revived essence of Chara is strong enough, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Chara would have transferred over to Deltarune when our soul did.
Click to expand...
The smoking gun is the whole "your choices don't matter in this world" which lines up with "when did you think you were the one in control?" genocide ending
which does lead into my uh.....theory that chara could be the knight, although Alvin is more likely at this point, but here's the deal
1. Chara is connected to Kris, so Chara's dark world appearance would probably be a knight, similarly to Kris.
2. Chara has a motive to cause the roaring, being the devil and all
3. the whole goner creator thing I mentioned
4. "Let's destroy this world and move onto the next" could refer to the world of Deltarune even
5. Genocide route chara has a human soul in their possession that doesn't belong to them, so the whole Kris' soul thing could be connected
and there's probably some more
but the Knight is probably gonna be someone with no knowledge of the roaring, considering they take a day to open up each individual one, so who knows if that's even valid.
But if it ends up being true, then deltarune is le epic battle between the forces of Gaster and the devil chara, with Kris' life unwillingly dragged into the middle of it.
 
Deltarune is "his" creation, rather than Toby's (from an in-universe perspective obviously). From the voice on Twitter (who was 666% Gaster speaking) implying that Deltarune was made by them as a test, or rather, an "experiment", the old Deltarune website literally having the classic "THIS NEXT EXPERIMENT WILL BE VERY, VERY, INTERESTING", Gaster's most famous and most re-used quote in Toby's two games and also repeated by the voice on Twitter, way back in 2015, with the website later repeating a quote from the prophecy of the three heroes, the voice in the literal download-wizard for Deltarune clearly being Gaster as well, I could go on and on and on. Gaster is supposed to be the creator of Deltarune, and Deltarune was clearly supposed to be the experiment in Entry Number Seventeen, and like, holy hell I can't wait to see where that goes.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Considering that he seems to be in the same realm as like the player, it might be that his "experiment" involves his perspective of viewing the world as fiction somewhat, which could be a good comparison to how a player can be as morally questionable or kind as they want, and just experimenting with the world.

The smoking gun is the whole "your choices don't matter in this world" which lines up with "when did you think you were the one in control?" genocide ending
which does lead into my uh.....theory that chara could be the knight, although Alvin is more likely at this point, but here's the deal
1. Chara is connected to Kris, so Chara's dark world appearance would probably be a knight, similarly to Kris.
2. Chara has a motive to cause the roaring, being the devil and all
3. the whole goner creator thing I mentioned
4. "Let's destroy this world and move onto the next" could refer to the world of Deltarune even
5. Genocide route chara has a human soul in their possession that doesn't belong to them, so the whole Kris' soul thing could be connected
and there's probably some more
but the Knight is probably gonna be someone with no knowledge of the roaring, considering they take a day to open up each individual one, so who knows if that's even valid.
But if it ends up being true, then deltarune is le epic battle between the forces of Gaster and the devil chara, with Kris' life unwillingly dragged into the middle of it.
Click to expand...
It's a sick theory but I just can't see Toby using Chara that way with how adamant he is about separating the two games. I knew most of that but 1. and number 5. I never considered.
 
I can't really see it happening either, but I do think there's enough evidence to say that it's an intentional red herring
basically like the 2nd witness in an ace attorney case that you're like "okay it's them" and then it's not them but you progress the plot by pointing at them.
 
popnmusic.fandom.com

Sans

SANS is a character in pop'n music UniLab. He is a crossover character from the American indie game, Undertale. Sans is a relatively short skeleton. His attire consists of a plain white shirt, a blue hoodie, black shorts with white stripes on each side, and blue and white sneakers. His eye...
popnmusic.fandom.com popnmusic.fandom.com
Can we give him flight or levitation ability via this?
 
By the way, it reveals in Legends of Localisation that Asriel is capable of destroying "everything and everyone for good."

Meaning that to say at least, Toby clearly intended bro to be capable of erasing whole UT cosmology
 
Nvm I literally just did a Google search. Zamn I'm DEFINITELY buying these next paycheck. Can't believe I didn't know of them.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'd be careful of using these guides given they're mostly just secondary materials which are not made from Toby tbf.
Click to expand...
From the Fangamer page, it seems that Toby had significance in the book and it's essentially approved by him, but he didn't directly write it or anything. So it's supportive evidence but not any kind of direct WoG.
 
Btw I am working for the Civilization profiles for Deltarune, given Undertale has them but Deltarune not.

This is a sandbox I made on the Card Kingdom, opinions and improvements for it are welcome. Working soon on the Cyber World. I was thinking to do also the Castle Town, but I'd rather wait the other chapters for that.
 
Aaand by the way, continuing the Angel Prophecy stuff.

Gaster is scared of it somehow, and also in Genocide route, when prophecy is active... it blocks every FUN event, including Gaster's appearance.
It just won't outside interference let in.
 
Newsletter is out btw.

Toby and ZUN (Touhou creator) are having a little musical collab. They even had an announcement video and...FEATS?



Sick collab, Toby speaking so much Japanese (and further objective evidence that the Annoying Dog is literally supposed to be Toby Fox), and some debatable feats for the Annoying Dog. Also I'm ngl it's kind of cringe that the Annoying Dog's Deltarune page pretends that he's just some random character.

There's more about Toby's Touhou Travels in the newsletter but kind of off-topic so won't go into extreme detail. But ZUN and Toby are buds apparently and Undyne's Battle Against A True Hero is playing a HUGE part in the next Touhou game.

Toby made the first iteration of Megalovania (for the Earthbound romhack) when he was 15. Crazy.

Toby and ZUN signing on a drawing board together.

photo-signing-board.jpg


This adorable shit.

hvBiHZw04JBfn1R8YmvHb7004vr4DKS5GHLYOQWkmeKot6R9H1L9nCGnotd21wQ90AAOA9l1P7jzjxx3006raWRwwHql1mhVEnxMmgCU9hWo=s0-d-e1-ft


Toby had an amazing time and someone hugged him from behind apparently, people said "BL is beginning".

Undertale theorists getting ready to make a 30 minute analysis essay overanalyzing this thinking it's hinting at some lore:

image.png
 
Nah but FR, the wording here is hella sus. (Me getting ready to overanalyze something insignificant)

image.png


Let's see:

Specifically including the random company merch hogwash into brackets to isolate it?

Putting the exclamation point OUTSIDE of the quotation marks???

Toby leaving out the name of the company.

The promotional text being originally meant for characters.

Literally why would Toby even tell us about this?

I'M TELLING YOU, THERE IS SOMETHING HERE. WHAT IF THAT'S NOT TOBY SPEAKING LATER ON?

WHY WOULD TOBY PUT THIS HERE? HE HAS NO REASON TO UNLESS IT'S TO-

Wait.

Right after this, and I mean RIGHT after this, we see

image.png


this.

"THE END". The end of the TALE UNDERneath? After this, at the ACTUAL end of the newsletter, Toby mentions that Undertale has been released on Xbox, so this is in fact, NOT the end of the newseletter. And why Papyrus? Of all the characters Toby has that people love, why...him?

Let's take a look back at the first two points.

"Specifically including the random company merch hogwash into brackets to isolate it?

Putting the exclamation point OUTSIDE of the quotation marks???"

And the rest of the text is in a simplistic manner of speaking, especially with the use of "you'll" instead of "you will".

So could it be Papyrus' BROTHER speaking? To a certain human?

Very, very interesting.
 
Last edited:
RinneItachi said:
Sick collab, Toby speaking so much Japanese (and further objective evidence that the Annoying Dog is literally supposed to be Toby Fox), and some debatable feats for the Annoying Dog. Also I'm ngl it's kind of cringe that the Annoying Dog's Deltarune page pretends that he's just some random character.
Click to expand...
We should wait a bit more though for making an eventual Annoying Dog page though, we simply don't have enough info.
RinneItachi said:
There's more about Toby's Touhou Travels in the newsletter but kind of off-topic so won't go into extreme detail. But ZUN and Toby are buds apparently and Undyne's Battle Against A True Hero is playing a HUGE part in the next Touhou game.
Click to expand...
Correction: Danmaku Kagura is just another of the many fangames. Blame that to Touhou's weird nature as a Doujin Game.

Besides, made this.

vsbattles.com

Deltarune: Minor Additions

Let's make it short given that is not too damn lenghty. Civilization Profiles additions So, Undertale has as civilization profiles the Underground and Humanity, and Deltarune had nothing. So I took this fact as injustice, and made the same for Deltarune: Card Kingdom (I know it's an...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
StrymULTRA said:
We should wait a bit more though for making an eventual Annoying Dog page though, we simply don't have enough info.

Correction: Danmaku Kagura is just another of the many fangames. Blame that to Touhou's weird nature as a Doujin Game.
Click to expand...
I don't see how any additional info would change the circumstance much. I don't think the Annoying Dog should have a page to begin with though. The Annoying Dog isn't just some random character implied to be the supreme being or whatever. The Annoying Dog literally IS Toby. Toby explicitly, exclusively, and extremely consistently uses the Annoying Dog to represent him in literally any form. Video games, merch, social media, etc.. Realistically speaking the Annoying Dog is not bound by the tiering system nor should he be applied to fiction or versus battles, nor considered a character when talking about how strong these verses are, not because he's omnipotent or above fiction or whatever, but because he canonically exists as a purely literal representation of his author both within a fictional and real-world setting, way more literal than cases like The One Above All. So to pretend that we can appropriately scale him like any other fictional character is simply ridiculous imo. And his Deltarune page should probably get removed. He seems more fitting for Joke Battles Wiki or something of a similar capacity.

Aight. Yeah ngl I know literally nothing about Touhou beyond some of the basics.
 
RinneItachi said:
I don't see how any additional info would change the circumstance much. I don't think the Annoying Dog should have a page to begin with though. The Annoying Dog isn't just some random character implied to be the supreme being or whatever. The Annoying Dog literally IS Toby. Toby explicitly, exclusively, and extremely consistently uses the Annoying Dog to represent him in literally any form. Video games, merch, social media, etc.. Realistically speaking the Annoying Dog is not bound by the tiering system nor should he be applied to fiction or versus battles, nor considered a character when talking about how strong these verses are, not because he's omnipotent or above fiction or whatever, but because he canonically exists as a purely literal representation of his author both within a fictional and real-world setting, way more literal than cases like The One Above All. So to pretend that we can appropriately scale him like any other fictional character is simply ridiculous imo. And his Deltarune page should probably get removed.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about something like Scott Cawthon or whatever was called the Animdude thing from FNAF, given that Annoying Dog fits more something like it, and using a random Touhou collab (with a fan-game too, to make it worse) is not something I'd use as judgment.

Only time will tell though, I think.
 
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