Deltarune - General revisions

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Limited Space Manip is just an animation thingy, pretty sure you need a statement for that, otherwise anything that lacks frames in between would be limited spatial manip. It can simply be strike flying at them like in fan animatioms
Agree with everything else tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

Limited Space Manip is just an animation thingy, pretty sure you need a statement for that, otherwise anything that lacks frames in between would be limited spatial manip

The issue is that they use these in situations where they just can't walk to their enemy and hit them, they're forced at being at distance (the fights with Berdly, Spamton NEO and Rouxls in specific).

The problem is the consistency though.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The issue is that they use these in situations where they just can't walk to their enemy and hit them, they're forced at being at distance (the fights with Berdly, Spamton NEO and Rouxls in specific).

I mean, what prevents it being something like this (aka AoE attack) which just appears to be instant due to animation and stuff? That’s my main concern. Pretty sure stuff like this has to be explicitly stated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, what prevents it being something like this (aka AoE attack) which just appears to be instant due to animation and stuff?

The game makes it clear if the attack has to travel a path (Susie's Red Buster is literally what you linked, and it's the same between Battle Mode and Cutscene as noted in OP), yet her normal attack doesn't do that.

Pretty sure stuff like this has to be explicitly stated.

It's your standard lil bro. We don't need to have the word "concept" or "information" to get Concept/Info hax after all. Visuals sometimes are enough, like we don't need a statement of "cutting space" for Janemba, given we explicitly see him doing that.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The game makes it clear if the attack has to travel a path (Susie's Red Buster is literally what you linked, and it's the same between Battle Mode and Cutscene as noted in OP), yet her normal attack doesn't do that.

Will probably have to concede then ig… Sans still blitzes tho so won’t help.

 

[Arceus0x]

The issue is that they use these in situations where they just can't walk to their enemy and hit them, they're forced at being at distance (the fights with Berdly, Spamton NEO and Rouxls in specific).

The problem is the consistency though.

I still think its too inconsistent to be added but even if we ignore that there's still the issue that it isn't space manipulation at all. It's just a ranged attack. Sure Kris slashes in one place it ends up in the other...that's still just a ranged attack. Unless there's a specific animation of space bending to let him do that or a statement that he can bend space to do so, he isn't getting space hax, he just has a note in range that says he has high range.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The attack animation isn't just a game mechanic thing. As it's already been said, there are multiple times where the player characters could not possibly cross the distance. And Susie does it in a cutscene (against both Lancer and King, I think)

Susie's rapid swing against Queen isn't really a counterfeat. She's just angry and swinging her axe around.

So we have;

• Lancer Cutscene
• King Cutscene
• Spamton NEO fight
• Berdly 1st fight
• Roulxs fight

It seems very consistent that the Fun Gang's attacks don't care about distance

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Lancer Cutscene

Wait what cutscene, I don't remember

 

[Bernkastelll]

I agree

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Wait what cutscene, I don't remember

Here

Susie doesn't move from her spot, before or after the cut

In-battle she stands in place in walloping on him, but even in the last hit (more cutscene that in-battle) she's still in the same spot.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Here

Susie doesn't move from her spot, before or after the cut

In-battle she stands in place in walloping on him, but even in the last hit (more cutscene that in-battle) she's still in the same spot.

I just suppose that the things against the ability are in minority then.

Plus I'd add also the fact that Kris cut Spamton NEO's last wire at a distance.

I still think its too inconsistent to be added but even if we ignore that there's still the issue that it isn't space manipulation at all. It's just a ranged attack. Sure Kris slashes in one place it ends up in the other...that's still just a ranged attack. Unless there's a specific animation of space bending to let him do that or a statement that he can bend space to do so, he isn't getting space hax, he just has a note in range that says he has high range.

The thing is that bypassing space is technically still within that as it's still not caring about distance and striking the target at the same time as the swing.

I do agree that listing it as Space hax can be misleading, however... Probably listing like this helps.

"Can bypass [[space|Spatial Manipulation]] (insert reason)"

 

[ShakeResounding]

"[[Spatial Manipulation|Unconventional Spatial Manipulation]] (While Kris is not specifically manipulating space itself, his melee attacks with weaponry can strike an opponent in a manner that seems to "ignore" distance within a range of 2/3 meters)" Perhaps this wording could be a decent alternative?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Queen's barrier does make it seem like just a ranged attack rather than a space nullification ability or something of that nature.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Queen's barrier does make it seem like just a ranged attack rather than a space nullification ability or something of that nature.

Spatial Manipulation Negation/Resistance to Spatial Manipulation

 

[StrymULTRA]

"[[Spatial Manipulation|Unconventional Spatial Manipulation]] (While Kris is not specifically manipulating space itself, his melee attacks with weaponry can strike an opponent in a manner that seems to "ignore" distance within a range of 2/3 meters)" Perhaps this wording could be a decent alternative?

Too wordy for my taste ngl.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll try something like this for Kris:

Can ignore distance (Similairly to Susie, Kris has shown to be able to directly strike the opponent with melee attacks despite being physically away from them, examples being hitting Berdly or snapping/cutting Spamton NEO's wires despite being on a moving cart, or hitting Rouxls Kaard while being away from him on a boat)

Lazy for Susie rn, will do her later

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok time for other characters.

Susie: Can ignore distance (Can directly strike the opponent with melee attacks despite being physically far away from them, allowing her to also catch the King off-guard or snap Spamton NEO's wires despite being on a moving cart thanks to this ability)

Ralsei: Can ignore distance (Like Kris and Susie, he can bypass physical distance when hitting the opponent with melee strikes, as shown through snapping Spamton NEO's strings or hitting Berdly and Rouxls Kaard despite being physically far away from them on a vehicle)

Noelle: Can ignore distance (As a Lightner like Kris and Susie, she should be able to bypass physical distance when hitting the opponent with melee strikes)

Berdly: Likely can ignore distance (As a Lightner, he should be the same as Kris and Susie who can bypass physical distance when hitting the opponent with melee strikes, although he's never directly showcased the ability due to him not being a playable character)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now that the entire discussion about the Pseudo-Space Manip is done, let's go back on Tier 7 and Class G.

@Psychomaster35 I was wondering if you could modify your original Giga Queen calc with this, this method is perfectly valid as it was accepted before in this calc for example.

Mind pinging some staff to decide about the validity of Mach 5 here? If a calc should be made for Class G, at least it should have a solid backing

Edit: I realized now that the TP thing doesn't have an ability either?

Perhaps a "Pseudo-Energy Manipulation" for it works?

Also I think every Lighter + Ralsei should have it, as Susie used Red Buster, Ralsei used Pacifier, and Noelle used IceShock in cutscenes and independently from Kris.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Psychomaster35 I was wondering if you could modify your original Giga Queen calc with this, this method is perfectly valid as it was accepted before in this calc for example.

Calling you again for a problem we have with Jevil's AP justification:

Able to deal more damage than both King and Susie in Chapter 1

We don't do that, that part should be removed.

 

[Therefir]

Attack values and defense values are canon in Deltarune and part of the story, if Jevil deals higher damage than Susie it's because his attack value is higher.

 

[Therefir]

@Psychomaster35 I was wondering if you could modify your original Giga Queen calc with this, this method is perfectly valid as it was accepted before in this calc for example.

@Psychomaster35 Are you okay if I make a new blog using your calc and giving you credit?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Attack values and defense values are canon in Deltarune and part of the story

This is not Undertale, give me statements in cutscenes referencing those lol.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Whatever's being accepted looks good to me.

@Psychomaster35 Are you okay if I make a new blog using your calc and giving you credit?

Huh, I forgot about that. I can make the change right now if that's fine.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Blog's been updated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Blog's been updated.

Updated OP too.

Mind pinging staff here please?

 

[Ti58]

Ngl I can prolly just argue that Queen has just a fire aura.

In the worst case, can't we make just 8-A, likely Low 7-C, similar to how Saitama is rn?

i think i actually found a way to make her 8-B (assuming normal speed) or 8-A (assuming hypersonic speed) based on revised height calculations

 

[StrymULTRA]

i think i actually found a way to make her 8-B (assuming normal speed) or 8-A (assuming hypersonic speed) based on revised height calculations

Dude... With all of the good intentions, shut up.

You always enter putting pointless stuff to complain(?) and try to refute stuff, but that's either with massive assumptions or just unsourced stuff.

I don't even know what are you talking about with your "height standards", like... It's literally accepted the other way around.

So please, actually contribute to the thread instead of putting random nonsense. You do this a lot and I'm sick of it, thanks.

 

[Ti58]

Dude... With all of the good intentions, shut up.

You always enter putting pointless stuff to complain(?) and try to refute stuff, but that's either with massive assumptions or just unsourced stuff.

I don't even know what are you talking about with your "height standards", like... It's literally accepted the other way around.

So please, actually contribute to the thread instead of putting random nonsense. You do this a lot and I'm sick of it, thanks.

How is GIGA Queen's attack potency not relevant to this thread?

I didn't even mention any height standards. I mentioned GIGA Queen's height and based on several methods GIGA Queen's height consistently ends up at slighty below 20 meters.

There's a sprite containing most of GIGA Queen's body in the files (legs not included, but can be easily calculated from the full body sprite or you can use the legs in Queen's mansion entrance and add up, which could be underestimated but I really doubt she has nearly 10 extra meters of legs)

You can also use the part where her head appears next to the fun gang and compare the size of her head to the rest of her body if you don't want to use that sprite I mentioned.

I haven't published the calcs for this (and other things) yet though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's a sprite containing most of GIGA Queen's body in the files (legs not included, but can be easily calculated from the full body sprite or you can use the legs in Queen's mansion entrance and add up, which could be underestimated but I really doubt she has nearly 10 extra meters of legs)

1. Argument from incredulity
2. This isn't even a reason to say this supposed recalc is better without "huh I say so" lol

I haven't published the calcs for this (and other things) yet though.

So what's the point lol?

 

[Ti58]

Jevil should have some form of Acausality. If you continue a Chapter 2 save file from a save file in which Jevil wasn't defeated, but Jevil has been defeated in a different Chapter 1 save file, the shadow crystal and Devilsknife/Jevilstail can still be found in the hole in Castle Town, even though Jevil hasn't been defeated in that timeline.

 

[Imaginym]

Jevil should have some form of Acausality. If you continue a Chapter 2 save file from a save file in which Jevil wasn't defeated, but Jevil has been defeated in a different Chapter 1 save file, the shadow crystal and Devilsknife/Jevilstail can still be found in the hole in Castle Town, even though Jevil hasn't been defeated in that timeline.

So something like: Limited Acausality (Can appear at the start of Chapter 2, in Equipment form in a hole in Castle Town if he was defeated in a different timeline but not the current timeline.)?

If it is so, such that I understand your proposal correctly, then it has my approval at least, for all what that that's worth.

 

[Ti58]

So something like: Limited Acausality (Can appear at the start of Chapter 2, in Equipment form in a hole in Castle Town if he was defeated in a different timeline but not the current timeline)?

If it is so, such that I understand your proposal correctly, then it has my approval at least, for all what that that's worth.

Yeah

 

[StrymULTRA]

Jevil should have some form of Acausality. If you continue a Chapter 2 save file from a save file in which Jevil wasn't defeated, but Jevil has been defeated in a different Chapter 1 save file, the shadow crystal and Devilsknife/Jevilstail can still be found in the hole in Castle Town, even though Jevil hasn't been defeated in that timeline.

This is just the game filling up the lacking information from not playing Chapter 1, it's just a game mechanic tf.

 

[Ti58]

This is just the game filling up the lacking information from not playing Chapter 1, it's just a game mechanic tf.

What do you mean "not playing Chapter 1"?

If you continue a Chapter 2 save file from a save file in which Jevil wasn't defeated

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok I misread as I was in a hurry.

Regardless I think it's too vague to say that Jevil exists across all timelines, it could be a property of the crystal for as far as we know.

Besides this is derailing.

 

[Ti58]

Ok I misread as I was in a hurry.

Ok

Regardless I think it's too vague to say that Jevil exists across all timelines, it could be a property of the crystal for as far as we know.

Fair, I guess it's possible though (especially considering how Devilsknife is literally Jevil himself, it can even smile and it does have that property I mentioned)

Besides this is derailing.

I mean this thread has Jevil revisions. Well okay though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean this thread has Jevil revisions. Well okay though.

This thread went long enough without evaluating staff so I'd like to hurry, ok?

 

[Propellus]

Can I get a current analysis from each argument please?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can I get a current analysis from each argument please?

All in OP