Undertale CRT: Low 1-C Player

[Eficiente]

I fully agree with GodlyCharmander's reply to Ultima Reality, particularly this part

You seem under the very strange confirmation bias that, because something resembles a concept, then said concept must also be applied.

hits where the real issue it. Nothing can be symbolic/allegoric/only representing something w/o being the real thing, and that "nothing can be symbolic" is applied obligatorily as some rule that must be followed. That standard is naive and extremely low for the wiki to have.

None of those protests actually matter here. We treat viewing a reality as literal fiction as being enough to qualify for a level of transcendence over it, and that is that, especially if this reality actually exists as a lower world of its own. This is something that has been agreed to for a long, long time now, and I don't think we ought to change that just because you misunderstand how the Tiering System works.

As for the other stuff, though, I'll frankly ask you to concisely summarize what exactly your overall point is. No offense intended but I can tell English is your second language, and, being very blunt here, much of what you're saying is incomprehensible to me.

• I already know and agree with "viewing a reality as literal fiction as being enough to qualify for a level of transcendence over", but say that we do a bad job on how we determine when that's what's actually going on and not something very vaguely similar that should not give Low 1-C at all.
• 1 of the protests was on how the anomaly doesn't have a "higher" world from UT's "lower" one, so idk why you bring up that bit.
• I did not misunderstand how the Tiering System works, I called out how it's immensely vague in that topic and sooner or later you will have to agree with it.
• Yes English is my second language, I did not believe any of what I said was incomprehensible but will see to it and try to be more clear. Personally, I think what I say comes off as incomprehensible because the issues I bring up may be seen as inconceivable, and so if I don't explain them in detail and only approach them casually it comes out as nonsense.

 

[Eficiente]

So, to replace my first comment;

• The way Low 1-C stats are given based on characters/realities seeing other realities as fiction is being handled in a very wrong way. Yes, that can give Low 1-C stats that are legit, but not always, and many cases where the Low 1-C stats are wrong are allowed to give those upgrades due to our lack of rules and attention on that manner.
  • As in, for example if someone says that a character is 3-A because they can destroy the universe and you need to evaluate that, then you know that what they claim can very well make the character 3-A, but you also know that there can be a million scenarios in which "can destroy the universe" will not be 3-A even if that much is written somewhere as something the character can do. The "R/F Transcendence" (as the op puts it), in the way we deal with it as a wiki, is pretty much in diapers. We have the base idea of what would give, say, Low 1-C stats, but not all the context that would mean Low 1-C stats are wrong.
• 1 regulation we lack that I pointed out; Even if the "player" had a transcendence like this over Undertale, why would the player be Low 1-C and Undertale as a whole Low 2-C rather than the player being just some regular human in stats and Undertale a fictional game? What makes Undertale real when the argument is that it portrays itself as a game/fiction? Reality Equalization could be used to validate calc's for the Undertale characters, but it wouldn't need to be used on the player to give them a Low 1-C stat.
• To "See/perceive other realities as fiction" is one thing, but we don't clarify more about it. You are real, and you can destroy many things that are fiction, but what if Character A who sees/perceives other realities as fiction can't destroy them. You are real, and fiction can't harm you, but what if Character A who sees/perceives other realities as fiction can be harmed by them. You are real, and you can see the start and end of timelines in fiction in 1 moment stopped in time (...if you write that much in a paper and look at it, ig), but what if Character A who sees/perceives other realities as fiction and only exists in the present and the flow of time applies to them the same as other character in fiction. At what point is "See/perceive other realities as fiction" not enough for Character A to be Low 1-C? We don't say. More to it, what if we don't 100% know this facts about Character A but it's presumable based on feats and common sense? What if Character A has fancy superhuman strength unlike what most have and esoteric powers, including powers over time? Those minor things would surely serve as evidence to anyone believing they're Low 1-C, but then they would also never say so as it's paper tin evidence anyone would have the power to dismiss.

Am I clear on the issue?

 

[Moritzva]

I'm going to be watching this since the discussion became quite tense and unprofessional just a moment ago. Keep it together or I'll beat all of you over the head with a stick.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm going to be watching this since the discussion became quite tense and unprofessional just a moment ago. Keep it together or I'll beat all of you over the head with a stick.

I've been trained by stick bugs in the past young lad. You shall not best me in stick confrontations!

 

[Moritzva]

The Player is a rather important character in the world of undertale, and because of this I feel I should point out the few times the existence of a literal player has been pointed out in the game

• Flowey reveals that you, the player, still have the ability to reset and destroy everything.
• The player is recognized by sans, being considering an anomaly in the spacetime continuum
• Flowey outright states that undertale is a game, and right after states that if you win the game, you would stop playing with him.
• At the end of the genocide route, chara seems to be directly speaking to you, the player.

I would also like to point out that the game mechanics double as in-verse mechanics as well. Such as gerson knowing you cant kill him cause you haven’t entered a fight with him, asgore destroying the mercy button, Chara and Omega Flowey affecting the game window, SAVEs and LOADS, etc.

All-in All, the player exists independently from undertale and sees it only as a piece of fiction, and due to Undertale being canonically acknowledged as a videogame naturally implies that the existence of the player as a very much literal thing. Due to R/F Transcendence, the level of transcendence the player has over the game world is enough to warrant the equivalent of dimensional transcendence, and thus should bring the player to Low 1-C

That being said, I'll throw my own hat into the ring here.

Flowey reveals that you can reset and destroy everything. This seems like fine evidence in itself.
Being 'an anomaly in the spacetime continuum' really isn't specific enough, especially as a one-off line by a random skeleton guy with little information about what this actually means. Isn't really evidence in this case.
I don't get what this is trying to say. Can be taken as a metaphor, can not. What's this trying to prove, evidence-wise?
This is just a critique of argument style, but shy away from "seems to be". Non-committal statements like that don't prove anything and leave you open for someone to easily say "Well, I don't see it that way" in retort. You should probably attempt to affirm why you believe Chara is speaking directly to the player... though, luckily for you, Chara pretty obviously is in this case so your case is solid.

The game mechanics/in-verse mechanics thing is all pretty solid and well-supported, yes. However, the problem I'm seeing is... you haven't really proven anything on the level of Low 1-C, only the Low 2-C we already have. Yes, there are strong metaphorical implications of referring to the player, you have proven that. However, your evidence of Flowey offering the player the choice to "reset and destroy everything" is obviously referring to the very timeline erasure that Low 2-C is already based on. Similarly, your point that Chara is talking to the player actually supports the Low 2-C interpretation. Chara very obviously asks what you, yourself concede is "The Player" if you want to "erase this pointless world, and move on to the next". Chara is already Low 2-C as it is, and kills you in that ending. If you are claiming that Chara was talking to The Player, and Chara attacks you for 999999999 damage while erasing the world with you, then Chara would have to be equal to The Player... which contradicts your argument that The Player is above Undertale to such a degree.

In other words, your argument and evidence proposes that Undertale is Low 1-C for the same reasons it is currently Low 2-C. I'm not saying you don't have an argument for Low 1-C, but the base arguments in the OP are rather off-base and contradictory. That being said, I haven't read anyone else's arguments, so I can't definitively say if the entire thread is wrong - if you disagree with my words or think they are answered by other posts, feel free to prove me wrong and potentially even update the OP to better reflect the arguments at hand.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

,

That being said, I'll throw my own hat into the ring here.



The game mechanics/in-verse mechanics thing is all pretty solid and well-supported, yes. However, the problem I'm seeing is... you haven't really proven anything on the level of Low 1-C, only the Low 2-C we already have. Yes, there are strong metaphorical implications of referring to the player, you have proven that. However, your evidence of Flowey offering the player the choice to "reset and destroy everything" is obviously referring to the very timeline erasure that Low 2-C is already based on. Similarly, your point that Chara is talking to the player actually supports the Low 2-C interpretation. Chara very obviously asks what you, yourself concede is "The Player" if you want to "erase this pointless world, and move on to the next". Chara is already Low 2-C as it is, and kills you in that ending. If you are claiming that Chara was talking to The Player, and Chara attacks you for 999999999 damage while erasing the world with you, then Chara would have to be equal to The Player... which contradicts your argument that The Player is above Undertale to such a degree.

In other words, your argument and evidence proposes that Undertale is Low 1-C for the same reasons it is currently Low 2-C. I'm not saying you don't have an argument for Low 1-C, but the base arguments in the OP are rather off-base and contradictory. That being said, I haven't read anyone else's arguments, so I can't definitively say if the entire thread is wrong - if you disagree with my words or think they are answered by other posts, feel free to prove me wrong and potentially even update the OP to better reflect the arguments at hand.

Chara never attacks the one they are talking (Either Frisk or the Player), they attack the world itself.

So the "Chara would be = to the player" argument doesn't hold up.

 

[Moritzva]

,

Chara never attacks the one they are talking (Either Frisk or the Player), they attack the world itself.

So the "Chara would be = to the player" argument doesn't hold up.

No, Chara clearly can contest the player and the slash literally appears directed towards you. You can argue an interpretation that it's not attacking the literal player given they survive, but even then, Chara can very clearly override The Player and reset the world even if you don't want to. Either interpretation, they're comparable.

So the argument does hold up, it's just a matter of interpretation. What matters is, regardless of interpretation, Chara obviously scales to The Player, which is the logic our own profiles use at this very moment. Making The Player Low 1-C completely ***** with the scaling of the god-tiers in a way no argument above addresses whatsoever, and it makes zero sense for Chara to also transcend the game and see it as fiction... and on top of that, all their best feats are still Low 2-C.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No, Chara clearly can contest the player and the slash literally appears directed towards you.

Literally not the case, not a matter of interpretation.
Chara says they should "destroy this world and move on to the next".
If you choose to erase, Chara will compliment you as a partner and do the exact same slash, destroying the world. Proven by the literal fact the world is gone, and the game is closed.

If you resist, Chara will just mock you and kill the world anyway.

So no, this interpretation is down right false. Chara never slashes the player, the slash is meant to cover the entire screen to destroy the universe of Undertale.

You can argue an interpretation that it's not attacking the literal player given they survive, but even then, Chara can very clearly override The Player and reset the world even if you don't want to. Either interpretation, they're comparable.

"Override the player", they survive, they still have a SOUL.

Chara destroying the timeline, and the player's only effect over the world is controlling said timeline, and Frisk, both, destroyed.
So they being able to reset the world, not when you don't want to, but only if you ask them to, isn't proof of anything. You're deadass claiming false stuff.

I'm against the Low 1-C upgrade too, but please make an actual attempt to debunk the OP like we did.

 

[Moritzva]

Literally not the case, not a matter of interpretation.
Chara says they should "destroy this world and move on to the next".
If you choose to erase, Chara will compliment you as a partner and do the exact same slash, destroying the world. Proven by the literal fact the world is gone, and the game is closed.

If you resist, Chara will just mock you and kill the world anyway.

So no, this interpretation is down right false. Chara never slashes the player, the slash is meant to cover the entire screen to destroy the universe of Undertale.

"Override the player", they survive, they still have a SOUL.

Chara destroying the timeline, and the player's only effect over the world is controlling said timeline, and Frisk, both, destroyed.
So they being able to reset the world, not when you don't want to, but only if you ask them to, isn't proof of anything. You're deadass claiming false stuff.

I'm against the Low 1-C upgrade too, but please make an actual attempt to debunk the OP like we did.

First off, cool your tone. Disagreeing over an interpretation isn't grounds to be an ass. You've been aggressive towards everyone in this so far, if this continues, it will be reported. Got it?

Also, and? It's your interpretation it's directed at the world, even though it's aimed directly down the middle at you. If you disagree, that is your interpretation. It is a matter of interpretation. Don't be an ass when you're wrong - just because you disagree doesn't mean you are objectively correct. You're not. At all.

And furthermore, overriding the player doesn't even imply killing them directly. I'll concede that if I said anything about killing the player I mistyped, that's not what I meant. The intention was that if you disagree, Chara attacks or overwhelms you, doing it anyways. That is arguably proof of scaling, not to mention we already operate by scaling the two together. Nothing "false" has been claimed, you just disagree.

This isn't the first example of callous and rude behavior from you. Quit the attitude and fix your language, final warning.

 

[Therefir]

Moritzva's interpretation is valid and makes sense to me given what happens after the attack. Also let's tone down those egos for a moment.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I feel like (Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C) is likely the best solution.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I feel like (Low 2-C, possibly Low 1-C) is likely the best solution.

Or (at least Low 2-C, at most Low 1-C)

 

[KingPin0422]

If I may, Mori, I do want to point out that Chara has to coerce you into giving your SOUL over to them when you try to go back to the world of Undertale. If you refuse, Chara simply tells you to "stay here for all eternity." I do see your point with Chara overriding the player's control, but given that they cannot just take your SOUL by force, I'm not so sure that Chara is necessarily a rival to the Player in power.

Also, while I can kind of see why you would think that Chara's slash was directed at the player based on the animation, I completely disagree with that interpretation. Let's go over what happens at the end of the Genocide Route:

1. Chara asks you if you would like to "erase this pointless world, and move on to the next."
2. Regardless of your answer, Chara attacks, the game window shakes like an attacked monster as the screen fills with 9s, and then the game closes.
3. When you reboot the game, there is nothing. Not even a title on the window. Just a howling wind noise and endless blackness.
4. After waiting 10 minutes, Chara starts talking to you again, implying that you survived their attack.
5. Chara then gives you a choice: you can give up your SOUL to them in exchange for bringing the world back, or you can just leave it as-is. If you agree to hand over your SOUL, Chara recreates the world as promised.
6. After this, if you choose to do the Genocide Route again, Chara will go on another monologue. At the end, they say: "Now, partner. Let us send this world back into the abyss."
7. #2 repeats, but this time, when you start the game up, it's already recreated for you because Chara still has your SOUL.

Simply put, there is a lot pointing towards the world being destroyed, whereas the idea that the Player was also attacked isn't well-supported, as far as I see.

 

[Jibz]

following, and lets keep this coretous. Sounding like pompous asses (for lack of a better term) just made this feel like an snl skit and not a discussion

 

[Roachman40]

No, Chara clearly can contest the player and the slash literally appears directed towards you. You can argue an interpretation that it's not attacking the literal player given they survive, but even then, Chara can very clearly override The Player and reset the world even if you don't want to. Either interpretation, they're comparable.

So the argument does hold up, it's just a matter of interpretation. What matters is, regardless of interpretation, Chara obviously scales to The Player, which is the logic our own profiles use at this very moment. Making The Player Low 1-C completely ***** with the scaling of the god-tiers in a way no argument above addresses whatsoever, and it makes zero sense for Chara to also transcend the game and see it as fiction... and on top of that, all their best feats are still Low 2-C.

Unrelated, but this thread has taught me an interesting lesson, to be a lot more specific when proposing CRTs like this, lol.

I don't think chara is equal/scales to the player, exactly, and while chara does seem to have 'more control' over the world than the player, they still need to ask the player for their SOUL and cant forcefully take it from them.

 

[Livinmeme]

First off, cool your tone. Disagreeing over an interpretation isn't grounds to be an ass. You've been aggressive towards everyone in this so far, if this continues, it will be reported. Got it?

Also, and? It's your interpretation it's directed at the world, even though it's aimed directly down the middle at you. If you disagree, that is your interpretation. It is a matter of interpretation. Don't be an ass when you're wrong - just because you disagree doesn't mean you are objectively correct. You're not. At all.

And furthermore, overriding the player doesn't even imply killing them directly. I'll concede that if I said anything about killing the player I mistyped, that's not what I meant. The intention was that if you disagree, Chara attacks or overwhelms you, doing it anyways. That is arguably proof of scaling, not to mention we already operate by scaling the two together. Nothing "false" has been claimed, you just disagree.

This isn't the first example of callous and rude behavior from you. Quit the attitude and fix your language, final warning.

Yeah what is he is saying is not simply a ¨subjective oppinion¨ he is clearly stating that chara killing the player doesn't make sense (especially after Post Genocide pacifist exists)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, and? It's your interpretation it's directed at the world, even though it's aimed directly down the middle at you.

Your interpretation is based on the fact the slash is in the middle of the screen, aka, covering the whole screen.
The game tells you Chara is destroying the world with that attack.
The game shows you the world is destroyed.
Chara is friendly towards you in the erase option (which is "erase the WORLD"), the same slash happens.

Chara attacking the player is based on you misinterpreting an animation, It's incorrect.

And furthermore, overriding the player doesn't even imply killing them directly. I'll concede that if I said anything about killing the player I mistyped, that's not what I meant. The intention was that if you disagree, Chara attacks or overwhelms you, doing it anyways.

Chara never attacks you, period. They destroy the world, time and space, resulting in nothingness. The player cannot use time-based abilities in a timeless void, and the player wasn't given the ability to create timelines like Chara has, it's a matter of Chara simply having better hax.

That is arguably proof of scaling, not to mention we already operate by scaling the two together. Nothing "false" has been claimed, you just disagree.

It has. Chara never attacks you, literally, never, under no circumstance.
They never "overwrite your control", they just destroy the very thing you're able to control.

That's not an interpretation, the world being destroyed is stated, canon stuff. You can't control the timeline simply because it doesn't exist anymore.

You'd have a far better argument if you used Omega Flowey cancelling out the player's control over the timeline.

 

[Zencha9]

 

[Therefir]

I'm against the Low 1-C upgrade too, but please make an actual attempt to debunk the OP like we did.

Go on, report me. I dare you to argue on how I'm being "an ass", or "rude" to you at all. You're going to be surprised when they tell you to just stop overreacting, and chill.

You're being condescending for no reason, dismissing people's arguments as if they're idiots or not even trying.

Besides not being the brightest person in the world by going against people who are supporting your cause.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're being condescending for no reason, dismissing people's arguments

Dismissing? I literally addressed what I disagreed with, point by point.

As if they're idiots

Absolutely not, didn't even come close to imply such a thing.

or not even trying.

That'd be the correct interpretation. Because they miss a very blatant statement that gives a solid explanation contrary to their argument. Due to how inaccurate the point was, it's as if they're not trying.

Attributing Aggressive, rudeness to me and calling me "an ass" over me rebutting an argument about videogame characters isn't exactly proper behavior either, Mr. Therefir.

Besides not being the brightest person in the world by going against people who are supporting your cause.

That's called not being "biased". I see a major flaw in their argument, so I confront them. The arguments, that is.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Jesus Christ on a stick, what happened here? Is it seriously so hard to address the arguments in the thread without attacking others or otherwise being abrasive in your responses?

Fwiw, I also disagree with the upgrade given the counterarguments, but wow, y'all really should chill. Especially you, Charmander; saying shit like this:

You're not fit to be in this wiki, all I did was making a rebuttal to your point, and providing reasons for your interpretation being inaccurate, which they are.

Staff gets mad over nothing part 32.

Go on, report me. I dare you to argue on how I'm being "an ass", or "rude" to you at all. You're going to be surprised when they tell you to just stop overreacting, and chill.

VSBW staff, man...

And basically goading people to report you in this manner really doesn't help your case. Just chill the hell out.

 

[Kflare63]

I'm overall neutral

 

[Livinmeme]

Jesus Christ on a stick, what happened here? Is it seriously so hard to address the arguments in the thread without attacking others or otherwise being abrasive in your responses?

Fwiw, I also disagree with the upgrade given the counterarguments, but wow, y'all really should chill. Especially you, Charmander; saying shit like this:




And basically goading people to report you in this manner really doesn't help your case. Just chill the hell out.

I mean he got angry because the other mod was basically saying he was acting like a jackass for literal kid level of smugness

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Alright, I'd like to apologise for my behavior on the past two posts. I understand it's not that serious, and my actions were taken by a moment of anger over being, initially, unjustifiedly addressed as being aggressive with my response, which I wasn't at first. I also understand that being reactive, and replying to an accusation of being aggressive by being actually aggressive is the worse possible response.
I genuinely apologize for the unpleasant behavior, and for the harsh words, to everyone.

I will still hold on the argument that @Moritzva was the first offender in this instance. My initial reply to them was not aggressive, nor rude to them at all. Might have been a little dismissive, but their response was not justified. Seeing people jump the gun, and agreeing with them really rubbed me the wrong way.

To my very standard response, they called me:

aggressive

rude

an ass

This, over my standard, admittedly assertive reply. And to top it all off, Mori claimed they'd report me over it.
Now, is that proper behavior? Obviously not, I did nothing to deserve this kind of reply. So I replied in an aggressive manner, which was a massive mistake on my end.
But while I will apologize for my mistake, I will not hold off the belief that Mori is in the wrong as well.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Your interpretation is based on the fact the slash is in the middle of the screen, aka, covering the whole screen.
The game tells you Chara is destroying the world with that attack.
The game shows you the world is destroyed.
Chara is friendly towards you in the erase option (which is "erase the WORLD"), the same slash happens.

Chara attacking the player is based on you misinterpreting an animation, It's incorrect.

Chara never attacks you, period. They destroy the world, time and space, resulting in nothingness. The player cannot use time-based abilities in a timeless void, and the player wasn't given the ability to create timelines like Chara has, it's a matter of Chara simply having better hax.

It has. Chara never attacks you, literally, never, under no circumstance.
They never "overwrite your control", they just destroy the very thing you're able to control.

That's not an interpretation, the world being destroyed is stated, canon stuff. You can't control the timeline simply because it doesn't exist anymore.

You'd have a far better argument if you used Omega Flowey cancelling out the player's control over the timeline.

I have adjusted my reply to exclude the aggressiveness, so only the argumentation is visible.

I am well aware Staff are able to see edits, so I did not do it in order to avoid backlash.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, guys. Isn't the fact that Chara can take the anomaly/player's SOUL evidence that the Anomaly is either said SOUL, or that it exists within the fictional setting? That should seal the deal, no?

 

[Moritzva]

Yeah, no. Look, I’m not here to argue interpretations over what Chara is attacking because it doesn’t matter at all, it’s just derailing. What I will say is that you’re dead wrong on one thing - I didn’t instigate at all. I responded to your behavior multiple times, behavior that was specifically pointed out to me by other users. In fact, part of why I am here is because a plethora of other users found you very aggressive and condescending.

Debates are about trying to reach the correct conclusion, not just winning. Being snide and trash talking literally everyone like you have been this entire thread, even if you find it to be simply “smugness”, isn’t productive at all. Watch any professional debate and see the language they use and the lack of such behavior.

Is it really so hard to simply make a point without implying and making it as clear as possible you believe everyone who disagrees with you is a moron?

You edited your reply, good. Keep it that way. What this entire engagement has proven is that Undertale‘s meta stuff is vague enough to support a good toss-up of interpretations and ideas, and the current OP doesn’t debunk or provide enough evidence to support their interpretation above all the others.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, no. Look, I’m not here to argue interpretations over what Chara is attacking because it doesn’t matter at all, it’s just derailing.

You brought this up, and even when I contested the claim, you insisted on it. You should've just said, "well, either Chara is attacking the player or the world, my point doesn't change."
Which you did, but not before trying to support the "attacking the player" interpretation again, when it's simply not the case.

If it doesn't matter, simply do not reply to it.

 

[Roachman40]

If yall plan to continue this back and forth, I feel yall should take it to the RVT, lets not derail the thread my brothers and sisters, please.

What this entire engagement has proven is that Undertale‘s meta stuff is vague enough to support a good toss-up of interpretations and ideas, and the current OP doesn’t debunk or provide enough evidence to support their interpretation above all the others.

I mean I'm fine with a 'possibly Low 1-C' or smthn. Otherwise, Ultima intends on replying later, so I suppose its just the waiting game until that happens.

 

[Moritzva]

You brought this up, and even when I contested the claim, you insisted on it. You should've just said, "well, either Chara is attacking the player or the world, my point doesn't change."
Which you did, but not before trying to support the "attacking the player" interpretation again, when it's simply not the case.

If it doesn't matter, simply do not reply to it.

Same goes to you. It should’ve been easy to identify that it doesn’t matter. If it doesn’t matter, simply do not reply to it.

 

[Jibz]

Holy shit can we stop talking about feelings and get back to the crt for gods sake. Listen to Vamp Anthem and chill fr.

As for the thread, im inclined to agree with it.

 

[Eficiente]

As I see it, Chara either destroyed the world and did nothing to the anomaly, or destroyed them both and the anomaly had the power to come back with there being nothing to come back to. 1 point in favor of the latter are Chara's wider black eyes+what they say right before the attack, but it's a very small implication that can simply be meaningless if their sadism goes for the world they destroy, or that+knowing the anomaly may regret that. While the take that assumes less is the more likely, it's unclear what "assume less" even is as how the anomaly works is not clear. On that note, as far as we know Chara telling them that they can stay there forever is true, which can be interpreted by context, what Chara said & what Sans said as a horrible/undesirable situation the anomaly faces and is helpless about, which is telling.

I don't particularly trust this "possibly Low 1-C" proposals, it's easy to appeal to it but let's focus on what arguments make that up (to debate them) and what counter-arguments and reasons against it we recognize & make out of them to still conclude "possibly Low 1-C" (to debate that).

 

[Livinmeme]

As I see it, Chara either destroyed the world and did nothing to the anomaly, or destroyed them both and the anomaly had the power to come back with there being nothing to come back to. 1 point in favor of the latter are Chara's wider black eyes+what they say right before the attack, but it's a very small implication that can simply be meaningless if their sadism goes for the world they destroy, or that+knowing the anomaly may regret that. While the take that assumes less is the more likely, it's unclear what "assume less" even is as how the anomaly works is not clear. On that note, as far as we know Chara telling them that they can stay there forever is true, which can be interpreted by context, what Chara said & what Sans said as a horrible/undesirable situation the anomaly faces and is helpless about, which is telling.

I don't particularly trust this "possibly Low 1-C" proposals, it's easy to appeal to it but let's focus on what arguments make that up (to debate them) and what counter-arguments and reasons against it we recognize & make out of them to still conclude "possibly Low 1-C" (to debate that).

The anomally is in deltarune and assuming that it died and then it come back for no real reason is kinda iffy

 

[Eficiente]

I said that "the anomaly had the power to come back" (By clicking the game again, in terms of what actions do it) so idk why they would be dead, they wouldn't (even if Deltarune was canon).

Deltarune having anything to do with Undertale is an issue. We can talk about it but I'm very sure that it should not be done and Deltarune should be ignored when talking about Undertale. Yes it seems as if the anomally and Chara are the same after the Genocide ending and going to attack the "next" world, but at the same time, Toby Fox said that they were different and not a continuation, it could be that Undertale is canon to Deltarune but not the other way around. More to it, the anomally and Chara went as an evil team hungry for power & unafraid to break the rules while on it, and there will be lore over topics as complex as them that we don't know anything about yet.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I said that "the anomaly had the power to come back" (By clicking the game again, in terms of what actions do it) so idk why they would be dead, they wouldn't (even if Deltarune was canon).

Deltarune having anything to do with Undertale is an issue. We can talk about it but I'm very sure that it should not be done and Deltarune should be ignored when talking about Undertale. Yes it seems as if the anomally and Chara are the same after the Genocide ending and going to attack the "next" world, but at the same time, Toby Fox said that they were different and not a continuation, it could be that Undertale is canon to Deltarune but not the other way around. More to it, the anomally and Chara went as an evil team hungry for power & unafraid to break the rules while on it, and there will be lore over topics as complex as them that we don't know anything about yet.

Same multiverse (Two separate sets of 4D timeline collections), it's likely there is some direct correlation (like UT Sans being heavily implied to be DR Sans who accidentally travelled to the UT Universe), and obviously the SOUL being the same.

But that's getting into theory territory, there is no hard evidence of connections.

 

[Livinmeme]

I said that "the anomaly had the power to come back" (By clicking the game again, in terms of what actions do it) so idk why they would be dead, they wouldn't (even if Deltarune was canon).

Deltarune having anything to do with Undertale is an issue. We can talk about it but I'm very sure that it should not be done and Deltarune should be ignored when talking about Undertale. Yes it seems as if the anomally and Chara are the same after the Genocide ending and going to attack the "next" world, but at the same time, Toby Fox said that they were different and not a continuation, it could be that Undertale is canon to Deltarune but not the other way around. More to it, the anomally and Chara went as an evil team hungry for power & unafraid to break the rules while on it, and there will be lore over topics as complex as them that we don't know anything about yet.

Wouldn't that just make chara a smurf anyways?

 

[Livinmeme]

Same multiverse (Two separate sets of 4D timeline collections), it's likely there is some direct correlation (like UT Sans being heavily implied to be DR Sans who accidentally travelled to the UT Universe), and obviously the SOUL being the same.

But that's getting into theory territory, there is no hard evidence of connections.

I mean at minimum is kinda obvious that deltarune and undertale are connected to what level we don't know yet, the problem is that is not concrete enough

 

[Eficiente]

Wouldn't that just make chara a smurf anyways?

I don't use that term.

 

[Livinmeme]

I don't use that term.

And? How does that affect my argument, the same thing still would apply with or without the term

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Guys, this has nothing to do with the thread.