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Touhou Upgrades and Scaling Revisions (Part 2)
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bump I'm not letting this die, I could keep bumping for months ovo
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E
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'''''b u m p'''''
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Can we just cancel the upgrade and move on with our lives.
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Saikou The Lewd King said:
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Everything is an outlier, Touhou is 7-B and Relat. Hax doesn't exist outside of Yukari and Reimu. Have a good day.
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Isn't the feature of Avici that it lasts so long that it might as well be endless rather than literally eternal?
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Maybe in the original myth, but the Touhou version doesn't really imply that. It just hammers in "Infinite" and "Endless" several times and is done with it. Plus it's consistent with a more recent infinite space statement regarding Hell, so.
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Alright, just found this massive thread. Is there any way I can contribute?
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Lord JJJ said:
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Same, to be honest.
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Honestly... I'm doubting about Cirno's calcSaikou The Lewd King said:
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Then no Upgrade???
bye bye Touhou stomps DBS jks then ;;((((((
bye bye Touhou stomps DBS jks then ;;((((((
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What are y'all going on about now
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Just make your bible now, we can't let this as itSaikou The Lewd King said:
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First im going to respond to this comment
You are still equating someone that is clearly shown to not be comparable as he's beat by people that are fodder to Beerus, and are still fodder when they pull off Low 2-C feats. And guess what? Reimu has proven explicitelly not comparable to kasen, and needs special abilities to do anything without the lost techniques or youkai exterminating abilities. Humans are stated explicitely not comparable to oni to the point where it is impossible for them to be able to do anything. Sakuya getting supposedly stomped into the ground trying to fight remillia. Oni being repeatedly exaggerated as being unfathomable in power and above most of the cast in gensokyo.
The example you are giving about beerus is literally what is happening with oni and other youkai actually on this level, with the only difference being that humans have developed special weaponary and techniques to exploit youkai weaknesses which they can use on oni.
Making it sound like the characters you don't wanna scale up are completely and unequivocably below the ones that do when your evidence is lacking at best is not gonna get you anywhere. No dude. I have debunked any evidence that these characters without low 2-C feats or scaling are comparable. Did you not read the countless scans i linked in the other thread of oni being exageratingly above everybody else with nobody being able to physically contend without special techniques and weaponary? The burden of proof is on you to prove that they finitely scale to them.
You keep going on about physical power and I have to seriously ask, do you have blidnfolds on while watching our profiles...? Attack Potency is not the same as Striking Strength, yet you are using physical power to say people don't scale. We should make all Jedi just Street level because they don't get higher without Force Amplification. And yet they havent shown attack potency capable of affecting oni or hermits either. This is another strawman. My point about physically comparable is that they need any form physical attack that harms their opponent and not a magical weapon that exploits a weakness and negates durability. I never said anything about striking strength being needed for attack potency.
Apparently you only consider being anywhere near physically, having feats on that level, or being told directly and as plainly as possible that characters can fight on an equal level. Don't say Spell Card Rules don't matter here, because you obviously have issues with people being compared under their special rules. I never said directly or as plain as possible. This is a strawman. I accept anybody who is among the strongest youkai as opposed to a simply strong youkai.
If spellcards mattered the way you describe then we would literally have cirno scaling to marisa due to marisa stating she would have trouble even with her full power. Spellcard rules are a system where anybody can fight evenly. Everyone who uses spellcards pretend they are having a real fight evidenced by things like certain characters being stated as dead, when they
"being anywhere near physicall comparable" that is literally the standards you give with the beerus example. If someone is not shown anywhere near physically comparable then the dont scale.
Physically comparable, and now you see the issue. Once again, do you actually know or have seen the difference between Attack Potency and Striking Strength in our profiles? And are you actually reading my comment? I said the fighting games, 1v1 fighting, those few games that look like Street Fighter instead of a Bullet Hell. I am not sure how you got this confused.
Yes i do. Striking strength is currently listed the same as ap in the profiles for touhou anyway. What are you even arguing against? Again, when i mean physically contending i mean hitting someone with a physical attack whether it would be through a punch or a danmaku attack which doesnt have some magical weakness exploiting or durability negating attack. If someone harms another with a non striking strength attack, and it isnt doesnt function as the latter above then yes, they would be comparable.
The problem is that you don't understand the concept of comparable. Being weaker doesn't make you not comparable, being ineffectual and unable to do anything to your opponent (this is a case by case as hax may be the reason. Ichigo can't do anything to Yhwach because of the Almighty, but without that in the way he can totally kill him with his attacks) is what it means to not be comparable. Stop acting like i dont understand what comparable means. If someone is weaker and either has no evidence of scaling (e.g. 2018 kratos being able to scale infinitely below normal kratos due to simply being stated weaker) or they are unable to do anything to them through any form of physical means (reimu doing nothing to kasen with normal attacks. Goku being unable to do anything to beerus). With either of those being the case, you cannot just assume they are comparable in some way without any evidence to back it up.
So far your argument is just burden of proof as i have given the evidence that these characters are not only much weaker to the point where they are useless without youkai hunting techniques and weaponary, while you continue to say "but you need to prove to me they are not infinitely weaker" despite there being nothing to suggest them finitely scaling in the first place or being remotely comparable.
There is nothing stopping humans being infinitely weaker than the strongest youkai. That is a fact ive proven throughout this thread.
You are still equating someone that is clearly shown to not be comparable as he's beat by people that are fodder to Beerus, and are still fodder when they pull off Low 2-C feats. And guess what? Reimu has proven explicitelly not comparable to kasen, and needs special abilities to do anything without the lost techniques or youkai exterminating abilities. Humans are stated explicitely not comparable to oni to the point where it is impossible for them to be able to do anything. Sakuya getting supposedly stomped into the ground trying to fight remillia. Oni being repeatedly exaggerated as being unfathomable in power and above most of the cast in gensokyo.
The example you are giving about beerus is literally what is happening with oni and other youkai actually on this level, with the only difference being that humans have developed special weaponary and techniques to exploit youkai weaknesses which they can use on oni.
Making it sound like the characters you don't wanna scale up are completely and unequivocably below the ones that do when your evidence is lacking at best is not gonna get you anywhere. No dude. I have debunked any evidence that these characters without low 2-C feats or scaling are comparable. Did you not read the countless scans i linked in the other thread of oni being exageratingly above everybody else with nobody being able to physically contend without special techniques and weaponary? The burden of proof is on you to prove that they finitely scale to them.
You keep going on about physical power and I have to seriously ask, do you have blidnfolds on while watching our profiles...? Attack Potency is not the same as Striking Strength, yet you are using physical power to say people don't scale. We should make all Jedi just Street level because they don't get higher without Force Amplification. And yet they havent shown attack potency capable of affecting oni or hermits either. This is another strawman. My point about physically comparable is that they need any form physical attack that harms their opponent and not a magical weapon that exploits a weakness and negates durability. I never said anything about striking strength being needed for attack potency.
Apparently you only consider being anywhere near physically, having feats on that level, or being told directly and as plainly as possible that characters can fight on an equal level. Don't say Spell Card Rules don't matter here, because you obviously have issues with people being compared under their special rules. I never said directly or as plain as possible. This is a strawman. I accept anybody who is among the strongest youkai as opposed to a simply strong youkai.
If spellcards mattered the way you describe then we would literally have cirno scaling to marisa due to marisa stating she would have trouble even with her full power. Spellcard rules are a system where anybody can fight evenly. Everyone who uses spellcards pretend they are having a real fight evidenced by things like certain characters being stated as dead, when they
"being anywhere near physicall comparable" that is literally the standards you give with the beerus example. If someone is not shown anywhere near physically comparable then the dont scale.
Physically comparable, and now you see the issue. Once again, do you actually know or have seen the difference between Attack Potency and Striking Strength in our profiles? And are you actually reading my comment? I said the fighting games, 1v1 fighting, those few games that look like Street Fighter instead of a Bullet Hell. I am not sure how you got this confused.
Yes i do. Striking strength is currently listed the same as ap in the profiles for touhou anyway. What are you even arguing against? Again, when i mean physically contending i mean hitting someone with a physical attack whether it would be through a punch or a danmaku attack which doesnt have some magical weakness exploiting or durability negating attack. If someone harms another with a non striking strength attack, and it isnt doesnt function as the latter above then yes, they would be comparable.
The problem is that you don't understand the concept of comparable. Being weaker doesn't make you not comparable, being ineffectual and unable to do anything to your opponent (this is a case by case as hax may be the reason. Ichigo can't do anything to Yhwach because of the Almighty, but without that in the way he can totally kill him with his attacks) is what it means to not be comparable. Stop acting like i dont understand what comparable means. If someone is weaker and either has no evidence of scaling (e.g. 2018 kratos being able to scale infinitely below normal kratos due to simply being stated weaker) or they are unable to do anything to them through any form of physical means (reimu doing nothing to kasen with normal attacks. Goku being unable to do anything to beerus). With either of those being the case, you cannot just assume they are comparable in some way without any evidence to back it up.
So far your argument is just burden of proof as i have given the evidence that these characters are not only much weaker to the point where they are useless without youkai hunting techniques and weaponary, while you continue to say "but you need to prove to me they are not infinitely weaker" despite there being nothing to suggest them finitely scaling in the first place or being remotely comparable.
There is nothing stopping humans being infinitely weaker than the strongest youkai. That is a fact ive proven throughout this thread.
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@Saikou There is no need to beg on discord for me to stop commenting here just so you can make the upgrade. You clearly dont want to have lengthy discussions about issues with the scaling and are clearly trying to find ways to avoid it. But all you need to do as i have emphasised in my "bible chapter" is to provide a little more explanation here and there and give some links or references to sources, something Lord JJJ just which i will look at and address.
When you are most heavily focused on debunking opposing views due to heavy belief your scaling is undoubtedly correct, it will no longer be a reasonable discussion. It will be a competitive debate with no conclusion in sight. Most others in my position would have lost their temper by now with the deal of bandwagoning and ad nauseum going on. Just show the sources and evidence. It's not as difficult as you think.
If you really want to take the easy way out however and cancel the upgrade just to bring it up at a later date so you dont have to go through a discussion about the legitimate flaws with the profiles, be my guest.
When you are most heavily focused on debunking opposing views due to heavy belief your scaling is undoubtedly correct, it will no longer be a reasonable discussion. It will be a competitive debate with no conclusion in sight. Most others in my position would have lost their temper by now with the deal of bandwagoning and ad nauseum going on. Just show the sources and evidence. It's not as difficult as you think.
If you really want to take the easy way out however and cancel the upgrade just to bring it up at a later date so you dont have to go through a discussion about the legitimate flaws with the profiles, be my guest.
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This statement is interesting "Although her powers are among the top class in Gensokyo, she never uses them just to show off. This isn't only a characteristic of hers, but of tengu in general."
If we scale aya to top class youkai based on this statement, wouldnt we scale tengu in general?
Even then, its still questionable scaling them as being top class among the oni tier youkais considering tengu have been literally beaten to the ground by oni for centuries and still completely fear them.
If we scale aya to top class youkai based on this statement, wouldnt we scale tengu in general?
Even then, its still questionable scaling them as being top class among the oni tier youkais considering tengu have been literally beaten to the ground by oni for centuries and still completely fear them.
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I suppose so. 2-C doremy would be an entirely different topic.
Ive added the updated post below. It isnt perfect at the moment but should get corrected over time.
Ive added the updated post below. It isnt perfect at the moment but should get corrected over time.
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Island tiers: Iku Nagae, Seija Kiji, Phantoms, Youki Konpaku, Youmu Konpaku, Reisen Udongein Inaba, Alice Margatroid, Goliath Doll, Nue Houjuu, Yuyuko Saigyouji (Likely far higher? Manages and governs ghosts and spirits in the nether world. Not sure if this would be an unknown though), Roukanken and Hakurouke, Letty Whiterock, Hatate Himekaidou
Multi Continent tiers (Scaling from Giant Catfish): Hong Meiling, Giant Catfish, Patchouli Knowledge, Sakuya Izayoi
Star level: Yatagarasu, Utsuho Reiuji
Small Star to Solar System level (Scaling from Marisa): Marisa Kirisame, Yuuka Kazami (Fought Reimu in the past, should probably be comparable if not superior), Reimu Hakurei (Physically superior to marisa), Rinnosuke Morichika (With weapons), Kosuzu Motoori (Likely far higher, stomped marisa), Mini Hakkero
3-A: Amitabha
High 3-A ― Low 2-C: Yuugi Hoshiguma, Yukari Yakumo, Tenshi Hinanawi, Suiki, Shinmyoumaru Sukuna (With the mallet), Remilia Scarlet, Okina Matara, Mononobe no Futo, Kasen Ibaraki, Clownpiece, Flandre Scarlet, Fujiwara no Mokou, Suika Ibuki, Toyosatomimi no Miko, Kaguya Houraisa, Komachi Onozuka (Maybe High 3-A only for this one since Low 2-C here is quite questionable), Eiki Shiki, Saigyou Ayakashi, Ran Yakumo, Yin Yang Orb, Sword of Hisou, Aya Shameimaru, Lord Tenma
Sanae tiers (Unknown): Sanae Kochiya, Kanako Yasaka (Also created sky? Probably not useable tho), Suwako Moriya
Unknown or unsure about: Byakuren Hijiri, Hasshaku-sama (Scales to Ichirin), Ichirin Kumoi (Probably scales to hasshaku), Iwanagahime, Keine Kamishirasawa, Konohana-Sakuyahime, , Mamizou Futatsuiwa (Scales to or possibly above byakuren), Shou Toramaru (Technically a disciple of bishamonten. Im not entirely sure how she scales), Occult Balls (IIrc the lunarian occult balls are actually better than the normal ones. Though the ones used to break the barrier are entirely magical properties. So im unsure whether this is unknown or has an applicable tier at least in a key), Sumireko Usami (refer to occult balls)
Notes:
-Reimus fantasy seal might High 3-A to Low 2-C. But im uncertain since they are often treat as a weakness exploitation and being less effective to humans (very similar to the occult balls).
-Patchouli is likely multi continent level due to being remillias high ranking servants and likely being comparable, if not superior to the likes of meiling. Sakuya should definitely be superior to meiling from what I know, though its unknown whether she scales to higher characters. Which is why im more leaning towards Unknown, At least High 6-A likely far higher.
-Suika should have her reasoning for possibly low 2-C listed on her profile do avoid confusion as to why she scales to those with the low 2-C feats (since heaven shattering is only High 3-A)
-Some of the island tiers can be likely far higher or whatever you feel comfortable with putting
-The current High 4-Cs that scale, will be High 3-A possibly Low 2-C, while the current 4-As will be At least High 3-A possibly Low 2-C.
Multi Continent tiers (Scaling from Giant Catfish): Hong Meiling, Giant Catfish, Patchouli Knowledge, Sakuya Izayoi
Star level: Yatagarasu, Utsuho Reiuji
Small Star to Solar System level (Scaling from Marisa): Marisa Kirisame, Yuuka Kazami (Fought Reimu in the past, should probably be comparable if not superior), Reimu Hakurei (Physically superior to marisa), Rinnosuke Morichika (With weapons), Kosuzu Motoori (Likely far higher, stomped marisa), Mini Hakkero
3-A: Amitabha
High 3-A ― Low 2-C: Yuugi Hoshiguma, Yukari Yakumo, Tenshi Hinanawi, Suiki, Shinmyoumaru Sukuna (With the mallet), Remilia Scarlet, Okina Matara, Mononobe no Futo, Kasen Ibaraki, Clownpiece, Flandre Scarlet, Fujiwara no Mokou, Suika Ibuki, Toyosatomimi no Miko, Kaguya Houraisa, Komachi Onozuka (Maybe High 3-A only for this one since Low 2-C here is quite questionable), Eiki Shiki, Saigyou Ayakashi, Ran Yakumo, Yin Yang Orb, Sword of Hisou, Aya Shameimaru, Lord Tenma
Sanae tiers (Unknown): Sanae Kochiya, Kanako Yasaka (Also created sky? Probably not useable tho), Suwako Moriya
Unknown or unsure about: Byakuren Hijiri, Hasshaku-sama (Scales to Ichirin), Ichirin Kumoi (Probably scales to hasshaku), Iwanagahime, Keine Kamishirasawa, Konohana-Sakuyahime, , Mamizou Futatsuiwa (Scales to or possibly above byakuren), Shou Toramaru (Technically a disciple of bishamonten. Im not entirely sure how she scales), Occult Balls (IIrc the lunarian occult balls are actually better than the normal ones. Though the ones used to break the barrier are entirely magical properties. So im unsure whether this is unknown or has an applicable tier at least in a key), Sumireko Usami (refer to occult balls)
Notes:
-Reimus fantasy seal might High 3-A to Low 2-C. But im uncertain since they are often treat as a weakness exploitation and being less effective to humans (very similar to the occult balls).
-Patchouli is likely multi continent level due to being remillias high ranking servants and likely being comparable, if not superior to the likes of meiling. Sakuya should definitely be superior to meiling from what I know, though its unknown whether she scales to higher characters. Which is why im more leaning towards Unknown, At least High 6-A likely far higher.
-Suika should have her reasoning for possibly low 2-C listed on her profile do avoid confusion as to why she scales to those with the low 2-C feats (since heaven shattering is only High 3-A)
-Some of the island tiers can be likely far higher or whatever you feel comfortable with putting
-The current High 4-Cs that scale, will be High 3-A possibly Low 2-C, while the current 4-As will be At least High 3-A possibly Low 2-C.
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I dont comfortably scale hatate because not only to tengu rarely ever show off power but they are explicitely only rivals in the media and news paper.
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I think I am more inclined to consider Alice Margatroid, Reisen Udongein Inaba and Hatate Himekaidou in unknown tier
I think it's weird that Yuyuko be only 6C. Does she really have not any feat?
Also Yuuka has to be upgraded because it is one of the strongest youkai I will try to find out if there is any confirmation of this information
But if Yuuka is upgraded, will Riemu be upgraded too?
I think it's weird that Yuyuko be only 6C. Does she really have not any feat?
Also Yuuka has to be upgraded because it is one of the strongest youkai I will try to find out if there is any confirmation of this information
But if Yuuka is upgraded, will Riemu be upgraded too?
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I dont think there is much reason to put them at unknown tier as oppose to island level at minimum, though i dont mind hatate at least having a possibly far higher rating. Its best to keep as few unknowns as possible as well unless truly necesarry.
You mean Yuyuko? I dont think she does. She really just governs spirits and phantoms in the netherworld.
If she is upgraded then likely not. Reimu has fought youkai like oni and kasen who are way above her physically and it truly scale ap wise. Yuuka fighting reimu is only a likely rating due to surviving and reimu going by how she spoke, did not treat yuuka as if she were a weak opponent when they fought, which for a youkai is a major achievement.
You mean Yuyuko? I dont think she does. She really just governs spirits and phantoms in the netherworld.
If she is upgraded then likely not. Reimu has fought youkai like oni and kasen who are way above her physically and it truly scale ap wise. Yuuka fighting reimu is only a likely rating due to surviving and reimu going by how she spoke, did not treat yuuka as if she were a weak opponent when they fought, which for a youkai is a major achievement.
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I mean, if she has ever canonically damaged a high tier youkai on that level with a normal attack that isnt youkai hunting based or took a direct hit from one, then i have no objections to reimu being that level. Why so? I dont think reisen has much that would make island level seem the least bit nonsensicle.
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