Touhou Upgrades and Scaling Revisions (Part 2)

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

@Dodo
The High 4-C feat we currently have comes from Suika. Ergo, everyone scales to Suika in some way. And this new High 3-A/Low 2-C feats come from Suika or people who definitively scales to Suika and vice-versa. Meaning there is no change at all to how we scale people to the top feats.

Oh yeah, even in spanish community agree to make scaling of Suika's feats xd

 

[The_Causality]

It has taken almost 700 replies to something like that?

Confusion: 1000%

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

It has taken almost 700 reply to something like that?
Confusion: 1000%

Issues of the First World m8

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I think I agree with read (except that I see that Riemu should be at a high tier and Reisen is unknown and Yuyuko should bein higher tier but unfortunately I have no evidence) but on the other hand as Saikou said everyone was high 4C via scaled to Suika so why not everyone becomes high 3A to low 2C via scaled to Suika but I tend more to the opinion of "read" because it provided more convincing evidence by me

But Creeplord wrote: Anyway if the wkiki has a Low 2-C Bill and a 4-A Kirbyverse then I don't see problems to add the scalling as the profiles says

So if killing the creator of the universe doesn't make you Univereseal and threatening an infinite number of timelines doesn't make you Multiverseale+ why might destroy an infinite space make you High Universeal

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

But Creeplord wrote: Anyway if the wkiki has a Low 2-C Bill and a 4-A Kirbyverse then I don't see problems to add the scalling as the profiles says

So if killing the creator of the universe doesn't make you Univereseal and threatening an infinite number of timelines doesn't make you Multiverseale+ why might destroy an infinite space make you High Universeal

n*gg4 what?

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Quit answer and then forget it:

Threat =/= AP

Bil never killed his creator

2hu has more feats and more solids statements than GF and Bill Cipher, fodder High 7-C ;;CC

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Quit answer and then forget it:
Threat =/= AP

Bil never killed his creator

2hu has more feats and more solids statements than GF and Bill Cipher, fodder High 7-C ;;CC

1 The one who killed his creator is Kirby, not Bill
2 I was just joking, man

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

1 The one who killed his creator is Kirby, not Bill
2 I was just joking, man

Oh. Well the thing of Kirby that I said it's because I think he and others characters would be Low 2-C

and I was joking to xd

 

[Junkoposter]

Oi lads, please stop derailing.

 

[ÆONS]

Okay at this point we are just circlejerking about whatever while also waiting for something that may never come (Saikou's bible). I agree with Read's tiering and Saikou's statement on the scaling and I think we should end this soon and do the upgrades because I don't know what else to discuss, unless someone has ideas.

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

and I think we should end this soon because I don't know what else to discuss, unless someone has ideas.

Junko vs Bill? :tHiNkInG:

 

[ÆONS]

and I think we should end this soon because I don't know what else to discuss, unless someone has ideas.

Junko vs Bill? :tHiNkInG:

qUiT dERaiLinG

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Well, I have some things to say about all this stuff. So maybe, I'll say it tomorrow (I'm busy with homework, GG)

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Bruh. at this point this thread would have the same fate as this thread.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

It is interesting that you wrote this when I was preparing to write an author comment

And for Doremy Sweet I really have many queries about her and I think she should be 2C (since the dream is a world similar to reality in Touhou and Doremy can create and destroy dreams easily) or possible even 2B (because it controls the dream world that contains several dreams, of each of them is four-dimensional structure, is not that made her 2B like Dreamy Bowser) But Read said we should continue where we are now and think about the possibility of Doremy Sweet be 2C later or something like that

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I said earlier that I'm going to look for evidence that Yuuka is one of the strongest Youkai, and this seems to be mentioned in one of the games, but unfortunately this is only mentioned in one of the computer PC 98 era, which means not to upgrade Yuka

It was mentioned in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense that Reimu exterminated Yuuka several times(I think she mentioned this in Phantasmagoria of Flower View too) Is this why Yuuka scaled to Reimu? Because I don't feel it is enough

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Doremy is not 2-C

Individual Dreams are not separate space-time continuums

They're all just parts of the Dream World

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

It is interesting that you wrote this when I was preparing to write an author comment
And for Doremy Sweet I really have many queries about her and I think she should be 2C (since the dream is a world similar to reality in Touhou and Doremy can create and destroy dreams easily) or possible even 2B (because it controls the dream world that contains several dreams, of each of them is four-dimensional structure, is not that made her 2B like Dreamy Bowser) But Read said we should continue where we are now and think about the possibility of Doremy Sweet be 2C later or something like that

Doremy is 2B because she's my waifu, and all my waifus are OP ( even Kimura Seiko )

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Doremy is not 2-C
Individual Dreams are not separate space-time continuums

They're all just parts of the Dream World

Well sorry for the mistake, I have not played any of the games that contain Doremy, all I know is a bunch of informations, so It seems to have confused me

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Well now I'm inspired by Lord JJJ comments,so I'll putmy own 2hu scaling

hOlD mY bE3R

E E E E E E

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ah yes, because that's totally what we need.

 

[ÆONS]

that image is cancer

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Ah yes, because that's totally what we need.

It's for the sake of the verse, don't worry m8

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

First. I'll say that I'm totally agree with the Low 2-C, so in this case I will not take it just as "possibly" rather than a direct tier

Island Level: Cirno (via calcs(?), Rumia, Daiyousei, Koakuma (Possibly higher? ZUN says that Devils are such a powerful race like Onis and Vampires... but also says that Koakuma is far weaker, F), Yamame, Parsee, Koishi & Satori (Possibly higher? I mean she has as a pet Utsuho, but I don't think this is going to do some scaling, so just draw your own conclusions anyway), the Prismrivers, and basically any low tier well knowed such as the fairies

Multi-Continent Level: Hong Meiling (likely much higher, since the Catfish's profiles states that he took the forms and powers of Reimu and Marisa, in this case, I will put as a low-end the High 6-A, and as a high-end a ******)

Universe Level+: Suika Ibuki, Kasen Ibaraki, Yuugi Hoshiguma, Urumi Ushizaki (She's an Oni living in the Sanzu River, and my sixth sense tolds me that she's the fourth deva of the mountain),Yukari Yakumo, Ran Yakumo, Tenshi Hinanawi, Iku Nagae (via summoning the power of the Dragon), Shiki Eiki, Komachi Onozuka, Kutaka Niwatari (Well she's a god, and was designed by Shiki Eiki to be the guard of the Hell and oversee the gateways to Otherworlds), Keiki Haniyasushin (Scaling from Kutaka), Aya Shameimaru, Momiji Inubashiri & Hatate Himekaidou (Since Tengus are one of the most powerfuls Youkai in Gensokyo), Suwako Moriya, Kanako Yasaka (Scaling from Tengus, also created Sky), Yorihime & Toyohime, Junko, Yuuka Kazami (Due to being one of the most strongest Youkai according to PMiSS, I think that she should scale), Reimu Hakurei (Scaling from Yuuka and with her Fantasy Nature), Marisa Kirisame (Comparable to Reimu), Sanae Kochiya (Scaling from Kanako & Suwako, should be not so far below them),Yuyuko Saigyouji (Governs the Netherworld, and it seems that she weakened the border between the Netherworld and Gensokyo, possibly would scale from characters such Suika or even the Saigyou Ayakashi since thanks to her the Cherry Blossom was sealed [Btw why it's Low 2-C that tree?]), Youki Konpaku, Youmu Konpaku (Should be comparable to Yuyuko), Remilia Scarlet, Flandre Scarlet, Sakuya Izayoi (Seems to be one of the high tiers in Gensokyo, also fought against Remilia and she wanted her power), Patchouli Knowledge (Scaling from Marisa & Sakuya), Kaguya Houraisan, Eirin Yagakoro, Keine Kamishirasawa (via Creating and Eating History, as I know this is a synonym of a timeline), Fujirawa no Mokou, Toyosatomimi no Miko, Mononobe no Futo, Byakuren Hijiri (Scaling from Miko), Ichirin Kumoi (In this case, just would be a possibly Low 2-C if we consider that she would scale from Futo), Doremy Sweet ( I'll always think that she should be 2-C, anyway ), Sagume Kishin, Occult Balls, Sumireko Usami (With the Occult Balls), Okina Matara, Hecatia Lapislazuli, Shimmyoumaru (With the Mallet)

Some Notes

1-. Since Reimu's Fantasy Nature is not only a Spellcard, rather it's her innate power that Reimu itself limited to fit with the Spellcard Rules, means that she will be Low 2-C due to being her own power and ability and being stated as one of the most powerful techniques (and also adding the scaling with Yuuka)

2-. Characters such Alice, Satono, Mai and even Reisen just only will have a possibly Low 2-C AP, with Alice is like that if we assume she can scale from Marisa (and as I remember in PCB she said something like she was superior to Reimu(?), with Satono & Mai because they was powered by Okina's power (otherwise they'd still be Island Level), and with Reisen if we still consider the "Likely High 4-C" to the new scaling (Idk, honestly I don't care about Reisen, so welp)

3-. Since the gods were the creators of practically everything in the game, I think all of them should have the same level (Yeeh with this I'm adding Hina or the pumpkin sisters), including with this the Divine Spirits who reached the level of divinity with Faith and share the same characteristics of a God (Well, in some cases, otherwise I see all the gods-gods as having the same tier). The only gods that I see would be "inferior" are those that were reduced to the level of a Youkai by the lack of Faith (e.g. Kogasa and Kokoro)

4-. As I say in the list, I think that with Meiling we have two possible ends for her tier. As the Catfish's profile says it tooks the powers and forms of Reimu and Marisa, so if we consider that as valid then I think Meiling would be Low 2-C, but if we don't consider that as valid then Meiling will stay at High 6-A. So with ths we have the high-end (Low 2-C), and the low-end (High 6-A), I won't say much for now either, I'll let you decide which one is best for Meiling.

5-. Despite that the Occult Balls seems that only works in Gensokyo (┬┐?), this doesn't nulls the fact that Sumireko was going to using it to destroy the Hakurei Barrier itself, something that even high tiers Youkai cannot do. And also was stated that the Lunar Occult Ball has infinite power, perhaps this can scale from the normal Occult Balls. Anyway, at least if you want to say that Sumireko and the Balls are unknown tier, you should have one more argument than just "they don't work outside of Gensokyo"

6-. I don't know in which tier would Mamizou will stay, so I'm not gonna talk about her

7-. With all sayed, the currents High 4-C that I forgot to mention would scale from the Low 2-Cs

 

[The_Causality]

Just use the current scaling to Suika to scale her U+ feat. If people have problem, they can make their own thread about that, we're not going to change the scaling in an Upgrade thread.

 

[Makkurona]

Oh boy, another verse upgrade and revisions

 

[Junkoposter]

I wish to facepalm

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Wow and finally some excitement

1 I think I agree with Reimu in this level, especially since I may have found evidence that Yuuka is high tier and Reimu literally exterminated her several times, well because she flight out reality via using Fantasy Nature should make her a fourth dimensional, I think.

2 Despite this, I think, Marisa is not scaled to Reimu.

3 Obviously, saying Alice is stronger than Riemu is just a joke and that there is nothing to suggest that Alice is scaled to Marisa except being friends

4 I am still convinced that Reisen must be at an unknown level

5 Tengu are not comparable to oni and there is no indication that they are all at the same level.

6 Is the sky considered to be infinite, and is it stronger than Tengu? If yes, I am sure that Suwako, Kanako and Sanae must be in this level

7 Finally there is something that allows you to upgrade Yoyoku

8 I don't think Sakuya is measured for Remilia because she was easily defeated by Remilia

9 Also Patchouli is not scaled to Marisa, in Immaterial and Missing Power When Mirissa breaks into the Patchouli library, she is fighting her using sorcery cards, so we can say that fighting between them is by sorceress cards when Mirisa always invades her library so there is no measurement.

10 For this we will scaled Patchouli and Sakuya for Hong Meiling, if we consider Hong Meiling Universeal+ Patchouli and Sakuya will be low 2C and my previous words will be worthless, and if we consider Meiling multi-continent, Patchouli and Sakoya will be at the same level

11 Why is Bayakorin scaled to Miko and Isher to Foto? I still think they should be unknown.

12 I think we have to wait Read to give his opinion on your Scaling 13 Yes, Doremy should be 2C not via Power Scaling only, she has a feat in this level but I forgot it lol

14 It seems like I love the unknown tier

15 Hey did I stay two hours to write this

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

1-. Wel not 4D im existence, I mean there's no feat of it, and this of flight above reality woulf be a hax

2-. Why?? Marisa constantly trains with Reimu and wins 40 of 60 fights. I think that's why she should scale

3-. As I say here it's just a possibly level, because I'm not sure if she can scale or not

4-. I don't care about Reisen, so choose what you want #BeingReisenIsSuffering

5-. As I now tengus are considered one of the most powerful Youkai races, so I think they would scale (and of course, is not like there are just four Onis in Gensokyo btw)

6-. If we consider thst the Sky is part of the Heavens, I think yes. But also she would scale from tengus since she surrounded the entire Youkai Montain under her control, that's basically the plot of MoF, and as I say, the gods should have the same tiering

7-. As I say I see possible a scaling from Suika, and even the Saigyou Ayakashi

8-. Remilia wanted her power to her own, this means that at least Sakuya would be a little bit comparable to vampires. Also she's basically Remilia's right hand and seems to be one of the high tiers

9-. I see posaible the scaling with Marisa. She seems to have a better knowledge over magic and also she was an innate mage, so I think this means thar she has a far higher knowledge over magic than Marisa. And btw watching Yuuka's profile in PMiSS it seems that the Spellcards are not the daily life in Gensokyo, and it's only applied when someone knows that there's not chance to winning from both sides (with this I'm talking about a stalemate). And also she should scale from Sakuya

10-. Well, I don't play Hisotensouko yet, but if the tier and the sustents are accurate, then I think Meiling would scale from that

11-. Because it's seems as the rival of Miko, and I see that she considers her as her equal, and with Ichirin because she has [ S T A N D O P O W E R ] and if we consider that she can scale from Futo

12-. Ikr

13-. That's because she's my smugness waifu, so them she would be at least 1A

14-. O o f

15-. I stay 4 hours making the scaling

 

[ÆONS]

Didn't Marisa also defeat Yuuka? Shouldn't she scale as well because of that too?

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Didn't Marisa also defeat Yuuka? Shouldn't she scale as well because of that too?

Well I didn't know that, if that's the case them she can scale from Yuuka too

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ffs

Like I keep saying, this is a combat focused verse. Conflicts are mainly solved in combat. It's impossible for anyone with any kind of authority or effect on the power balance of Gensokyo to be infinitely weaker than others. Byakuren can't rival Miko while just being 6-C.

And the spell card rules do not change this. Power and hierarchy statements are almost always made without spell card statements in mind, like how Onis and Yuuka are highly feared for their power despite being mediocre in spell card fights.

And SCR are super recent. Gensokyo is at least a century old, and spell cards only existed for a little less than 20 years. Any relations of power established as being long term (Like Reimu and Marisa) should still be valid.

 

[ÆONS]

Ffs
Like I keep saying, this is a combat focused verse. Conflicts are mainly solved in combat. It's impossible for anyone with any kind of authority or effect on the power balance of Gensokyo to be infinitely weaker than others. Byakuren can't rival Miko while just being 6-C.

Byakuren is a High 4-C, and thats becuase she scales to and rivals Miko and is comparable to Tenshi (those are literally stated on her profile). I don't see a reason why she should remain unkown, or in a tier besides High 3-A/Low 2-C since all that has been established.

 

[Azh'Voroph_the_Crypt_Lord]

Also, as Yuuka's profile in PMiSS says, normally the Danmaku starts when the fight is a stalemate

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Btw "Unknown Tier" is not happening. Either people scale above Cirno or they scale to the Tier 3/2 feats. You need to come to term that not scaling people to Hermits is basically making them 6-C.

And also, a lack of proof IS a contradiction. Absolutely nothing indicates that Hermits are god tiers in Gensokyo, nothing talks about their notable strength (Unlike Aya or Yuuka, hmm). So yes, Hermits being infinitely above everyone IS contradicted.

 

[ÆONS]

I mean for the most part we got the "Unknown tiers" figured out, basically all that's left to determine is Mamizou (and maybe one or two others). But even then it's a tad difficult because I don't think the unkown tiers can sit any more confortably in Tier 6 than in Tier 3/2, if we can't figure out where they should be on then "Unknown Tier" may be the best option, that tier in particular exists for a reason. Also you are wrong about Hermits not being god tiers, just look at Kasen's (even though she's fake she scales to Miko), Miko's, Seiga's and Suiki's profiles here and those people are getting upgraded (as we agreed on).

 

[Read_this_post]

I'm not interested in debating this because not a single bit of progress has been made since this scaling debacle started. This has just been us repeating our arguments over and over. It's been going in circle. Don't act like I'm the only one stonewalling this.
Also don't act like it's a matter of evidence. You've simply rejected the evidences because you didn't think it's enough. Even though it is.

No. Its not a matter of evidence on your side.

Ive given scans to prove a feat legit. Ive linked proof and sources that youkai hunters consistently use special youkai hunting weaponary and techniques to hunt oni and stronger youkai, and that without it, everyone gets stomped into the ground both metaphorically and literally. I backed this up with the reimu fight with kasen where she needed special techniques to do any form of damage to kasen (the occult balls which only affect youkai as proven by another linked statement and the fantasy seal having the same statement of being more effective against youkai once again proving weakness exploitation and not attack potency). I even gave material straight from the verse to prove most of your scaling is ridiculous. I only repeated this evidence due to nobody giving anything to refute it, as it is a fact proven by the series which can only be "refuted" by repeating "ur methods are wrong".

Ive given proof to back up almost everything i said. You are trying to paint out my explanations as an argument from belief as another attempt to strawman and avoid my arguments. You have failed to prove almost anything you said and simply used ad nauseum and fallacious tactics to dodge everything being shown in an attempt to keep your scaling valid.

I explained why individual characters scaling is wrong (or asked for evidence or accepted it in some cases). Not just because its not enough. But because it explicitelly has nothing to do with power whatsoever and is complete headcannon to assume so.

You have developed the idea that because we cant scale the verse through easier means, we can take every little statement and turn it into something combat related. Which is why you have forged ridiculous headcannon such as one of the logically weakest gods in gensokyo (the hakurei god) scaling above reimu and embuing her own power into the occult balls (proven untrue by the occult balls only being blessed with youkai hunting properties). And ridiculous logic like governing over a large space of territory filled with nothing but island level fodder (which is only large likely due to the population) as more impressive than fully ruling a smaller territory of universe shattering brutes. Or two people from a race thats not even combatitive who are just rivals in terms of media scale.

No other verse on this wiki that isnt poorly handled takes every single type of comparison and statement twists something related to physical ap even with the most combatitive verses. Especially in a verse like touhou where the actual combat theme is completely removed and replaced with a literal beauty contest. On top of most religious conflicts never involving fighting to the death and majority of cases of actual killing involve the non power based youkai hunting methods given to you by the series. Also dont forget that you are the one who started the debate about scaling methods to begin with.

You're not attempting to have a reasonable nor objective discussion and are entirely focused on driving your point through. You dont even need to debate much. You just need to give logical reasoning in some areas and/or provide some evidence. I fully apologise if my responses are tedious to read through. Its a bad habit of mine. But you cant just use tactics like this to dismiss futile evidence given to you or stonewall to the point where you have to ask for my silence, even if debating or motivation is one of your weak areas.

 

[Read_this_post]

@Creeplord At quick glance, there is stuff here I agree with and disagree with. Ill look into this and everything else in the thread probably in a few days. Sorry for any delay, i have a tight scheduel. Of course the thread explodes once i go for a couple days lol. For the record I dont have much problem with reimu being Low 2-C with certain abilities. Ill get into that.

Also a lot of your past comments on this thread are derailing, irrelevant or nonsensicle. I would appreciate if you refrain from doing that again. That goes for anybody making walls of comments filled with irrelevant jumble. We dont need to make five threads because each one has been cluttered with comments unrelated to the discussion at hand.

 

[Read_this_post]

@The Causality You may be right in that we shouldnt delay accepted upgrades over the topic of scaling. I dont mind upgrading the current high 4-Cs and 4-As to the accepted tiers and continuing the discussion about the scaling here. Also suika only has a high 3-A feat. But i think she scales to low 2-C.

Should we give 4-As and above (excluding amitabha) an at least rating as i proposed? Just to establish a difference and so that it doesnt make it look like we treat god tiers as comparable to high tiers and whatnot.

 

[ÆONS]

We should do all of that tbh, also I looked onto one of the notes at one of your proposals about giving At Least High 3-A, posssibly Low 2-C and I fully agree with that.