Timeframe of Deus Sema

[Chibi14]

To call this cinematic time is wrong. The time wasn´t froozen when Erza has a inner monologue, nothing sugget for a cinematic time frame. The 120seconds timeframe is okay if you wanna use a calc, everything under the 120sec would speak against the timeframe from the anime.

And I mean if we use cinematic time frame, the scene from the mid air would cut how much time? 20-25seconds? It would still mean 100seconds until the meteor reach the mid air of the earth(not the ground). Everyother as the inner monologue was in the manga aswell, no timefrooze or something. When Erza has her inner monologue, fodder say something aswell.

So in the end the timeframe would still be 100seconds which is still to much.

 

[Jvando]

From the wiki.

Rule 6
"Cinematic time should never be used to argue that a character is faster or slower compared to speed statistics based on other feats."

A character, capable of dodging beams of light, is seen in a fight scene. The viewer is able to see him throwing punches and dodging attacks.

The fighting scenes here are slowed down so that the viewer can see them. A battle at light speed wouldn't be visible to the viewer (thereby defeating the base premise of an audio-visual depiction -_-). In such a case, it should be assumed that the battle is slowed down at all times, hence it cannot be reasoned that the character is slower than his previously depicted speeds on this basis, aka, rule #6.

Rule 7
"One should not assume that cinematic time is consistent in any way. Hence, calculating how much slower/faster cinematic time is compared to the actual time in the work and applying that to ratio to another instance is not a legitimate method to determine the actual time-frames in a piece of work."

In a scene, a beam of light is depicted traveling 3 meters in 5 seconds. Right after the beam leaves the field-of-view, we see a character moving 2 meters in 5 seconds.

Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner. In the scene described, the movement of the character might not be depicted with the same perception time as the light before. In this case, rule #7 would come into effect.

EDIT: I went back and looked at those 109 seconds after the meteor enters the atmosphere and it's silly how much of it is cinematic time, we see...

• 42 seconds of Erza inner monologue
• 5 seconds of Fodder Dialogue
• 5 seconds of Irene Dialogue
• 21 seconds of Erza jumping up at the Meteor
• 36 seconds of Erza Dialogue where the Meteor apparently stops moving and is right in front of Erza's face which we see is going at an acceleration where she would get hit in 2 seconds, but she talks in mid air for 36 seconds, hence cinematic time

Basically, there we don't even see the Meteor for the majority of these 109 seconds, meaning that this supposedly being real time is simply ridiculous


See how close the Meteor and Erza get close to each other, well this scene is immediately followed by 36 Seconds of Erza talking in mid-air, If this was all real time, then Erza would have no time to talk for 36 Seconds, because the Meteor would crash into her in like 2 seconds based on the acceleration they're going at in this scene, meaning that all this is slowed down for cinematic time, and therefore the 109 seconds should not be added onto the timeframe of the calc, as those 109 seconds are artificially there just to show what the characters are thinking in a brief moment and show us what they're doing, if this scene was done in real time, you would blink and it would be over

It should be fine to use just the 10 seconds it took for the meteor to come from outer space and ignore what happened after it touched down on earth. It doesn't have to be consistent, nothing in anime is ever perfect.

I agree with the OP that whatever follows the meteor entering the atmosphere can be chalked up to part of the story's cinematic timing since it's a battle situation and all that and can be disregarded.

Next thing you know, Borsalino's attacks don't travel at LS anymore

 

[TataHakai]

Jvando makes a lot of sense here and it seems to comply by our cinematic timeframe rules

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I personally agree with Chibi and IMade's point of view.

 

[Schnee_One]

Jvando made an extremely good point right there tbh.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Jvando do u mind clarifying ur stance for me? I've gone through it and the impression I get is that ur arguing that the meteor scene is an example of cinematic timing and hence the above rules apply. Apologies if it's obvious to everyone else, I just want to make sure I know what I'm reading/talking about

 

[Jvando]

Whatever happened after the Meteor entered the atmosphere can be chalked up to cinematic timing especially when the scenes that comprise that specific situation are broken down:

• 42 seconds of Erza inner monologue
• 5 seconds of Fodder Dialogue
• 5 seconds of Irene Dialogue
• 21 seconds of Erza jumping up at the Meteor
• 36 seconds of Erza Dialogue where the Meteor apparently stops moving and is right in front of Erza's face which we see is going at an acceleration where she would get hit in 2 seconds, but she talks in mid air for 36 seconds, hence cinematic time

It should be fine to just use the 10 seconds it took for the meteor to reach the atmosphere and not whatever happened after it entered the atmosphere.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Jvando, thank you. I'm in agreement.

 

[Chibi14]

Ignore the sec after the Meteor pass the earth atmosphäre would be totally wrong. As I said before the manga don´t make it different, yes the anime give some more seconds for Erza when she get her speech in mir air. But we should not forget, fodder react to that meteor. We should not forget Erza was lying on the ground and struggle to stand up again. When the meteor pass the earth atmosphäre, it become far slower when it come out from the space. In this case even if we use the cinematic tiemframe tules, we have tons of other panels where Erza was lying on the ground, when Irene get her speech,when Fodder saying something about the meteor. From my side we can cut 20sec because of the cinematic rules for the air scene where Erza get her speech. But we should not forget, then we would still have 100seconds which can´t put into cinametic rules.

So no I against this calc for some reason.

 

[TataHakai]

"But we should not forget, fodder react to that meteor. We should not forget Erza was lying on the ground and struggle to stand up again. "

Welcome to fairy tails power of friendship and feelings and Erza being a mary sue

" But we should not forget, then we would still have 100seconds which can´t put into cinametic rules."

I think Jvando already accounted for over 100 seconds

 

[Chibi14]

If it were Bleach then Tata would completely agree to lowball it.
Anyways, on the serious matter, yeah I would say it's slower than Jellal's Sema when it's literally shown to be slower.

Even if you removed the cinematic timing parts we're looking at a much larger timeframe.

Of course he would be the one who would be the one who downplay Bleach, Taka would lowball the shit of this feat if this happend in Bleach lol..

But also I agree with your point, even if removed the cinematic timing parts, we have still much to large timeframe.

 

[TataHakai]

If it were Bleach then Tata would completely agree to lowball it.
Anyways, on the serious matter, yeah I would say it's slower than Jellal's Sema when it's literally shown to be slower.

Even if you removed the cinematic timing parts we're looking at a much larger timeframe.

But also I agree with your point, even if removed the cinematic timing parts, we have still much to large timeframe.

Jvando's explanation accounts for at least 109 of the 120 seconds

So where's the much larger timeframe from?

 

[Chibi14]

If it were Bleach then Tata would completely agree to lowball it.
Anyways, on the serious matter, yeah I would say it's slower than Jellal's Sema when it's literally shown to be slower.

Even if you removed the cinematic timing parts we're looking at a much larger timeframe.

But also I agree with your point, even if removed the cinematic timing parts, we have still much to large timeframe.

Jvando's explanation accounts for at least 109 of the 120 seconds
So where's the much larger timeframe from?

10-20sec until the meteor pass the earth atmosphäre, then 5sec for fodder to react, Irene get speec over 10sec, Erza get inner monoluge for 10-30sec. Erza standing up going into the air 10sec in manga point.

The timeframe for the Anime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y08LOAFRCs

3:50, the meteor starting moving from the space.

3:50-4:10, the meteor pass the earth atmosphäre. So it take 20sec for the meteor to pass the earth atmosphäre, I don´t even know where you guys coming up with 12sec when we cleary see the meteor need at least 20sec to move from the space into the earth atmosphäre and become far slower. 20sec for the meteor to pass and you can cleary see the meteor become slower.

4:10-4:20, the meteor come from the air and we can see Erza speech something and the scene switch to Irene who use her power, another 10sec.

Overall we already have 30Sec.

4:20-4:35, Erza inner monoluge, one clear note the time doesn´t freeze and we can see Wendy body little shake and fodder looking already into the sky.

4:35-4:40, Fodder say something to the meteor(manga feat aswell).

4:40-5:00, Erza second inner monolugeu and standing up again with using magic to fly into the air.

Overall we already have now 70sec...

5:00-6:00, Erza moving forward to sky and Irene get many panels where she get her own inner monolugue, okay let say 40-50secs of this are cinematic time so we should still get 10-20sec for Erza flying forward and Irene getting her own tough.

Overall we would still get a timeframe of 80-90 seconds which cannot say to beeing cinematic, so just now I don´t see to over come all the 80-90 sec. Speaking about 12timeframe for the meteor from coming from the space is wrong and false, we can cleary see 20sec for the meteor to arrive and pass the earth atmospähre.

 

[TataHakai]

3:57 is the first time we see the meteor

4:07 is the first time the meteor collides with the atmosphere

So the speed of the meteor from its first location to earth is fine using 10 seconds as it's the distance to earth

Once it hits the earths atmosphere it obviously slows down, that's what you and Imade are trying to account for but it's been explained why you can't use Cinematic timeframe once it hits the atmosphere

 

[Jvando]

Bro, the meteor glimmers in the sky indicating what Irene is about to bring. It hasn't even moved from its spot until around 3:58.

They're calculating how much time it took for the meteor to move from point A to point B so using the timeframe in which it hasn't even moved yet literally makes no sense.

3:58 is when the meteor moves for the first time form point A 4:08 is when it hits the Earth at point B

From there on after, we cut to Erza.

In a scene, a beam of light is depicted traveling 3 meters in 5 seconds. Right after the beam leaves the field-of-view, we see a character moving 2 meters in 5 seconds.

Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner

 

[TataHakai]

In a scene, a beam of light is depicted traveling 3 meters in 5 seconds. Right after the beam leaves the field-of-view, we see a character moving 2 meters in 5 seconds.

Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner

People seem to be ignoring this

Cinematic timeframe isn't consistent across scenes, just because we use it for one doesn't mean we HAVE to use it for the next scene

it just depends on which complies with our cinematic rules, and after the meteor hits the atmosphere and we get tons of time freezes, inner dialogues and slowed down frames it no longer does

 

[Damage3245]

Just to check, is the distance between the meteor and Earth any closer/further than in the manga version of the scene? Has it been scaled?

 

[1997KD]

Javndo explain and debunk other 110-sec timeframe

@chibi those fodders didn't react to meteors, like how humans can see shooting star but they can't react to it. Also they are mages not just random humans

 

[TataHakai]

Just to check, is the distance between the meteor and Earth any closer/further than in the manga version of the scene? Has it been scaled?

I don't think thats the argument here

More so that the anime's showing justifies using 10 seconds for the manga feat which was already 10 secs for the high end

 

[Chibi14]

3:57 is the first time we see the meteor
4:07 is the first time the meteor collides with the atmosphere

So the speed of the meteor from its first location to earth is fine using 10 seconds as it's the distance to earth

Once it hits the earths atmosphere it obviously slows down, that's what you and Imade are trying to account for but it's been explained why you can't use Cinematic timeframe once it hits the atmosphere

This is just totally wrong and complete denying the anime scene, the meteor was already moving when Irene use her power, you can see from the sky at 3:52 the meteor was already moving and get faster, Irene use her magic three seconds before this scene. So the meteor was moving already in 3:52, just check it out himself and everyone can see it...

Just look at 3:56 the meteor was already moving into the earth, it get probably faster after Irene use her all magic. Fact is the meteor was already moving in 3:52 which everyone can check himself(red point from the sky which means the meteor was already at the route to hit the earth).

The Meteor was already flying from the space into the earth, then in 4:10 it pass the earth atmosphäre and arrive at the sky. I don´t know what is so much of denying something like this.

The cinematic scene start at 5:00-6:00, before we have legit panels(both manga and anime) with show people react, speechs and moving around the panels. For the enitre 4:10-5:00 we have cleary a pace and a timeframe with cannot stating as cinematic, their are basically panels from the manga. Erza inner monugule, Fodder react and speechs, Irene speech. Complete timeframe for entire scene.

You guys are on damage control, you wanna use only 12seconds from entire 120sec to upgrade a verse and forgetting the whole other timeframe. I understand the air flying from Erza where she make a speech, I would call this cinematic but the other scenes are really happend in a legit timeframe. The meteor become very slower after he pass the earth atmosphäre.

 

[TataHakai]

"This is just totally wrong and complete denying the anime scene, the meteor was already moving when Irene use her power, you can see from the sky at 3:52 the meteor was already moving and get faster, Irene use her magic three seconds before this scene. So the meteor was moving already in 3:52, just check it out himself and everyone can see it..."

But we're not calculating its speed from when it first appeared to when it hit the earth, in fact it would be FURTHER away at this point thus have an unquantifiable distance meaning it isn't possible to calculate this, no one is denying that the meteor was moving before but that's not a part of the calculation as it's impossible to determine its distance at that time

We are calculating its speed from when we first see the meteor in terms of its distance to the planet, a.k.a the shot next to the meteor looking at earth, which is at 3:57 not 3:52

"The Meteor was already flying from the space into the earth, then in 4:10 it pass the earth atmosphäre and arrive at the sky. I don´t know what is so much of denying something like this."

Again this calculation isn't for space to erza

The first part is the speed from its place in outer space to the atmosphere

the second part is after the 70% slow down of the meteor and erza colliding with it

Cinematic timeframe is fine for the first part as explained in this thread but not the second part, again, as explained in this thread.

 

[Jvando]

Brah, it seems like you're not understanding. They are only calculating from when the Meteor accelerated from its current position [A] towards the earth

If we use your line of reasoning, why stop at when Irene used Deus Sema? Clearly the meteor existed before she used it so we might as well take the timeframe of the entirety of the Fairy Tail anime and apply it since the meteor was still out there in space and moving towards the earth, albeit slowly.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

So,you want to tell me that it took 10 seconds to cross 400k km and reach the atmosphere of the planet then another 100 seconds to reach the surface?

I agree with the OP by the way.

 

[TataHakai]

So,you want to tell me that it took 10 seconds to cross 400k km and reach the atmosphere of the planet then another 100 seconds to reach the surface?

The 100 seconds is flawed to use as a timeframe

 

[1997KD]

here kizaru shoots an laser towards brook and brook speak a complete one sentence, according to you chibi, if we use your logic, he light isnt ls either.

Also i guess tata, and other calc grp member already give there opinion, Javando debunk and calrify everything. Just because 1 random guy isnt agree didn't mean we have to stop whole upgrade

 

[The_Calaca]

KD's right. We don't have to prolong this any longer. The opposite argument doesn't hold and it has been debunked, so there's no point in this conversation.

But Brook is FTL. Legit.

 

[1997KD]

You guys are on damage control, you wanna use only 12seconds from entire 120sec to upgrade a verse and forgetting the whole other timeframe. I understand the air flying from Erza where she make a speech, I would call this cinematic but the other scenes are really happend in a legit timeframe. The meteor become very slower after he pass the earth atmosphäre.

here kizaru shoots an laser towards brook and brook speak a complete one sentence, according to you chibi, if we use your logic, he light isnt ls either.

Also i guess tata, and other calc grp member already give there opinion, Javando debunk and calrify everything. Just because 1 random guy isnt agree didn't mean we have to stop whole upgrade

 

[Chibi14]

You guys are on damage control, you wanna use only 12seconds from entire 120sec to upgrade a verse and forgetting the whole other timeframe. I understand the air flying from Erza where she make a speech, I would call this cinematic but the other scenes are really happend in a legit timeframe. The meteor become very slower after he pass the earth atmosphäre.

here kizaru shoots an laser towards brook and brook speak a complete one sentence, according to you chibi, if we use your logic, he light isnt ls either.
Also i guess tata, and other calc grp member already give there opinion, Javando debunk and calrify everything. Just because 1 random guy isnt agree didn't mean we have to stop whole upgrade

Did you mean Yata no Kagami? It is a skill of Kizaru to control his lightspeed and moving with it. So when Brook speech, Kizaru wasn´t moving, he move after that:

[[1]]

But I don´t even know why we speaking now about One piece.

The important thing here is the Deus sama feat and im not agree if we accept 12sec when even Fodder get whole sentence and Irene even making comments. But im out here, so do what you guys wanna do, one thing for sure, just use 12sec and cutting the entire sentence of the whole deus sama panels is just wrong. Let say everything after the Deus sama arrive in the earth was cinematic, which seconds we would get with the whole scene as himself? Let say the whole Erza having inner monopulue, Fodder speech, Irene speech and Erza jumping into the sky is only 10-20sec, we would still have something with 20-30sec for the timeframe of the Deus sama feat.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Wow, Jvando did a very good job debunking the opposition and support for the OP

I think it's clear that the OP has been accepted, since it has the majority of support by a good deel and was also accepted by Calc Members that Cinematic Time was at play, plus our argument has debunked all of their reasonings and they just keep going in circles with the same points so I believe that the upgrade has won, no need to drag this out longer

Agrees with OP: 14 (DemonGodMitchAubin, Davidsteel1, 1997KD, DragonEmperor23, TataHakai, AnonymousBlank, AstralKing7, Captain Torch, RustyOne, Aguila, Calaca Vs, Yoyco, Jvando, Dzhindzholia)

Disagrees with OP: 6 (Imade, StrongClick, Chibi14, Zackmoon, Prince of Counters, Sigurd)

Neutral: 5 (DMUA, Crimson Azoth, SirLancelot, Schnee One, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan)

I believe this has been concluded, and we will use the High End of the Deus Sema calc

 

[AstralKing7]

Wtf how did this thread become so long ƒÖä

 

[Antvasima]

I haven't read the entire thread, but if the meteorite took 110 seconds to reach Erza after entering the atmosphere, then isn't that the speed that should be used, and if not, why?

 

[The_Calaca]

Cinematic timing. It has been explained what the 110 seconds consists of.

On the other side, using 110 seconds would make this meteor weaker than a regular Sema, which is stated to be weaker than this spell. It'd be under our accepted SEV for meteors as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

I will unsubscribe to this thread then. You can send me a message later, if you need my help after a consensus has been reached.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The only part of the anime that was real time was when the Meteor Flew from Outer space and then hit the atmosphere (Check Gif in OP)

Everything afterwards, that being those 110 seconds go through Cinematic Time and not real time, everything is slowed down for us so we can see it, like how you can see the characters in Dragon Ball Super, even though there Massively FTL, those 110 seconds can not be taken as real seconds because it just breaks the scene, it constantly jumps around and the Meteor appears to be going at speeds that would imply it to be far slower than an actual Meteor

The point is that the anime artificially slows the Meteor and scene as a whole done so that we can follow it, because if we saw the Meteor in real time, you would blink and it would be over

 

[1997KD]

I haven't read the entire thread, but if the meteorite took 110 seconds to reach Erza after entering the atmosphere, then isn't that the speed that should be used, and if not, why?

Wall of Text

Jvando From the wiki. Rule 6 "Cinematic time should never be used to argue that a character is faster or slower compared to speed statistics based on other feats." A character, capable of dodging beams of light, is seen in a fight scene. The viewer is able to see him throwing punches and dodging attacks. The fighting scenes here are slowed down so that the viewer can see them. A battle at light speed wouldn't be visible to the viewer (thereby defeating the base premise of an audio-visual depiction -_-). In such a case, it should be assumed that the battle is slowed down at all times, hence it cannot be reasoned that the character is slower than his previously depicted speeds on this basis, aka, rule #6. Rule 7 "One should not assume that cinematic time is consistent in any way. Hence, calculating how much slower/faster cinematic time is compared to the actual time in the work and applying that to ratio to another instance is not a legitimate method to determine the actual time-frames in a piece of work." In a scene, a beam of light is depicted traveling 3 meters in 5 seconds. Right after the beam leaves the field-of-view, we see a character moving 2 meters in 5 seconds. Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner. In the scene described, the movement of the character might not be depicted with the same perception time as the light before. In this case, rule #7 would come into effect. It should be fine to use just the 10 seconds it took for the meteor to come from outer space and ignore what happened after it touched down on earth. It doesn't have to be consistent, nothing in anime is ever perfect. I agree with the OP that whatever follows the meteor entering the atmosphere can be chalked up to part of the story's cinematic timing since it's a battle situation and all that and can be disregarded. Next thing you know, Borsalino's attacks don't travel at LS anymore

Javando explain it with using wiki standard, and tatahakai and other(except some like always) are agree with it

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Alright, majority agrees with OP and all reasons against have been debunked, No need to drag this on longer, I'm sure everyone has said what they've wanted too by now, the upgrades side has won and the upgrades will happen, so we can hopefully proceed with the revisions

I will wait a bit for any last minute comments or rebuttals, but after that, I will proceed

 

[Chibi14]

I haven't read the entire thread, but if the meteorite took 110 seconds to reach Erza after entering the atmosphere, then isn't that the speed that should be used, and if not, why?

Their give a big issue with this calc in my and IMade opinion, but before I show you the issue, I want from you to watch the meteor feat for the anime and manga pls.

Here the anime feat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y08LOAFRCs (Note: Meteor feat start at 3:45Min)...

Here Manga feat:

https://www.***********.net/fairy-tail/518 (Note: Meteor feat start at page 13)...

So the anime have a timeframe of 12secs, from the space to the earth it took 10-15sec(I use Taka logic) and for the whole other scene the meteor become far slower and it took some time to reach the mir air. I understand the cinematic argument, of course some time of these scene are cinematic. But even then we would get alone for Erza inner monologu(scene switch to entire other characters(time don´t get freeze or become slower) 10sec easily, 5sec for fodder sentence something and react, 10sec for Irene state something. How it can be a timeframe of 12 when the meteor from the space already need the similar same timeframe(10-15sec). We should not forget the meteor get become slower, so even if we cut many timeframe for cinematric wise, the timeframe from the point where meteor come into the air would be still something about 20-30sec and not 12sec(I mean that doesn´t even make any sense, the meteor become far slower after it come into the earth atmosphäre, the timeframe for the meteor to reach in mir Air Erza can´t be similar to the same timeframe as the meteor come from the space, it doesn´t work like this).

They come up with Jellal Sema, but Jellal meteor was way way smaller and weaker then Irene meteor, it come of course faster into the ground while Erza Meteor need time to pass the air.

A timeframe of 20-30seconds would make more sense just to use 12seconds.

 

[Jvando]

I don't quite think you are actually understanding the cinematic timeframe argument. All those extra seconds of dialogue and internal monologue don't matter because this is all cinematic timing to have the viewers see what is going on in the panel.

Rule 7
"One should not assume that cinematic time is consistent in any way. Hence, calculating how much slower/faster cinematic time is compared to the actual time in the work and applying that to ratio to another instance is not a legitimate method to determine the actual time-frames in a piece of work."

In a scene, a beam of light is depicted traveling 3 meters in 5 seconds. Right after the beam leaves the field-of-view, we see a character moving 2 meters in 5 seconds.

Even if the events are right after each other, cinematic time doesn't have to necessarily be consistent in any manner. In the scene described, the movement of the character might not be depicted with the same perception time as the light before. In this case, rule #7 would come into effect.

In this case, the scenario of the Meteor after entering the atmosphere doesn't have to be consistent with the meteor as it was traveling towards earth. At such a speed, the meteor wouldn't lose so much energy upon entry to the earth's orbit to move as slow as we see it. Therefore, the cinematic timeframe (those extra 110 seconds) can be ignored.

 

[Chibi14]

I don't quite think you are actually understanding the cinematic timeframe argument. All those extra seconds of dialogue and internal monologue don't matter because this is all cinematic timing to have the viewers see what is going on in the panel.

Just check out Rule 5:

Rule 5
If a movement is suggested to be sped up or slowed down by an unknown degree, cinematic time should not be used.


Lol you guys can´t even use the cinematic rule, the movement is suggested to slowed down for sure, so cinematic time rule doesn´t work for the meteor calc. So the timeframe would be still 120 Seconds, lol...

 

[Jvando]

Which is exactly why they aren't using the cinematic time of that scene (the entire 110 seconds)....

Thanks for proving my point I guess.

I'm not sure you understood what that Rule was saying bro.

If the meteor is suggested to have slowed down, then we can't use the cinematic time of that frame (it slowed down immensely, unnaturally and unrealistically so, after entering the atmosphere so we can't use the 110 cinematic time frame). That's what it's saying.

If they did use the 110 cinematic time frame, then that would go against Rule 5.

Thanks for clearing that up for everyoneƒæìƒÅ¥