-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tiering System Revisions - Part 3
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
- Status
- 175
- 10
I agree with Agnna.
- 6,594
- 1,708
Antvasima said:
Lightbuster30 said:
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,912
- 7,361
Is the matt thing what's apparently been solved by nepuko? I disagree with his opinion there and maybe my brain's just burned out from college stuff but I can't find where nepuko addressed that but if it already has my comment would likely be made redundant
- 32,358
- 20,298
Yeah I don't get Nepuko either.
- 6,167
- 16,318
- Thread starter
- #172
Please elaborate with examples regarding what you mean. To be able to bypass the hierarchy in this manner to such a massive degree seems suspicious to me.
I don't believe it can automatically allow you to bypass Low 1-A / 1-A, but it can indeed take you this far, it all depends very much on the underlying context behind a character and the relation to the stuff they hold transcendence over (case-by-case essentially. pls keep this part in mind). For example, when there is an Outerversal Hierarchy with an arbitrarily finite number of layers, and past it there exists some ineffable force which is defined by the verse itself as lying beyond any form of expression or meaningful statements about its true natural (sort of like Ayin Soph and similar concepts, although keep in mind the former's case is just a compariso), then such a force would certainly qualify for a higher tier than Low 1-A and 1-A, regardless of the amount of layers which the cosmology below them has.
This is because layers and higher planes of existence which can correspond to levels of an Outerversal Hierarchy ultimately are just assumed to denote differences in power between characters, being equalized to, and treated as such anyways. What I described in the paragraph above more often than not would simply supersede the states of being / size occupied by Outerversal creatures altogether, and lie beyond scale in relation to them, much like Outerversal creatures stand in relation to beings lesser than them (Note this is not illustrating the literal, quantified difference between tiers, and is just showing what they are positioned as in the tiering system)
Of course, "lul existing beyond truth and all possible statements" is something which, in its fullest and most literal extent, is not exactly provable within an indexing context, as I've said a few times in the past, but such thing can still be categorized as a "feat" in the context of a given fictional verse, in my opinion.
I don't believe it can automatically allow you to bypass Low 1-A / 1-A, but it can indeed take you this far, it all depends very much on the underlying context behind a character and the relation to the stuff they hold transcendence over (case-by-case essentially. pls keep this part in mind). For example, when there is an Outerversal Hierarchy with an arbitrarily finite number of layers, and past it there exists some ineffable force which is defined by the verse itself as lying beyond any form of expression or meaningful statements about its true natural (sort of like Ayin Soph and similar concepts, although keep in mind the former's case is just a compariso), then such a force would certainly qualify for a higher tier than Low 1-A and 1-A, regardless of the amount of layers which the cosmology below them has.
This is because layers and higher planes of existence which can correspond to levels of an Outerversal Hierarchy ultimately are just assumed to denote differences in power between characters, being equalized to, and treated as such anyways. What I described in the paragraph above more often than not would simply supersede the states of being / size occupied by Outerversal creatures altogether, and lie beyond scale in relation to them, much like Outerversal creatures stand in relation to beings lesser than them (Note this is not illustrating the literal, quantified difference between tiers, and is just showing what they are positioned as in the tiering system)
Of course, "lul existing beyond truth and all possible statements" is something which, in its fullest and most literal extent, is not exactly provable within an indexing context, as I've said a few times in the past, but such thing can still be categorized as a "feat" in the context of a given fictional verse, in my opinion.
- 1,154
- 659
@ Wokista I don't think I adressed the Matt thing, it was the Sera part of Agnaa's comment I believe. Or rather the point that the Outerversal and above part follow the same logic/"math" everywhere, so they can't be contradictory. I think >_>. So feel free to post your comment. As far as I go the more explanations, the better.Wokistan said:
@Matt You bully. That means you don't get Ultima either.
- 32,358
- 20,298
So what's happening folks.
- 32,358
- 20,298
There isn't worry. And as Ultima explained, you don't need to be above an explicitely infinite meta-hierarchy to be 1-A in this new system, much like in our current system you don't need to be above explicitely infinite higher dimensions to be 1-A.
- 167,692
- 76,285
Qualitatively transcending the concepts of space and time is not remotely the same thing as automatically transcending any type and degree of composite hierarchy whatsoever, no matter if another fiction uses an infinitely ascending ladder of higher states of existence that each comparatively transcend the preceding ones to as great degree as Ultima described. Just because I have a problem with some things I have heard about Suggs, this doesn't mean that he is not correct about this principle in theory.
As such, I remain very uneasy with all of this making several of our highest ratings become extremely exaggerated and unreliable.
As such, I remain very uneasy with all of this making several of our highest ratings become extremely exaggerated and unreliable.
- 6,104
- 5,106
Aeyu agrees that a hierarchy of perspectives is still a hierarchy. Just as I've been saying.
- 167,692
- 76,285
@Sera
I would very much appreciate elaborations of your and DarkLK's perspectives regarding what I just mentioned. It is extremely important that we do not make any mistakes regarding this.
If somebody can get ahold of Azathoth, so he can comment here, that would be very appreciated as well.
I would very much appreciate elaborations of your and DarkLK's perspectives regarding what I just mentioned. It is extremely important that we do not make any mistakes regarding this.
If somebody can get ahold of Azathoth, so he can comment here, that would be very appreciated as well.
- 10,758
- 6,491
Was it so necessary to add that you think he is insane
- 6,104
- 5,106
Qualitatively transcending the concepts of space and time is not remotely the same thing as automatically transcending any type and degree of composite hierarchy
You're comparing baseline 1-A to several degrees of transcendence above it. Of course they aren't the same degree of 1-A but both are still 1-A since a hierarchy of perspectives is still a hierarchy. There can be any number of differences so unless they completely transcend that entire state of existence (which requires hard evidence), they aren't High 1-A in Option 3.
You're comparing baseline 1-A to several degrees of transcendence above it. Of course they aren't the same degree of 1-A but both are still 1-A since a hierarchy of perspectives is still a hierarchy. There can be any number of differences so unless they completely transcend that entire state of existence (which requires hard evidence), they aren't High 1-A in Option 3.
- 1,290
- 508
@Antvasima, I'm not sure that I understand the meaning of the problem correctly, but still I will comment on this.
To prove the transcendence of a hierarchy, we do not necessarily need an infinite hierarchy, although its presence greatly simplifies the proof.
Let us assume that we have three outerversal characters: Ou-1, Ou-2 and Ou-X.
Ou-1 is baseline or somewhere higher.
Ou-2 is superior to Ou-1 by one qualitative step, one level of infinity or something like that.
And Ou-X is superior to both so much so that from this point of view there is a difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2. This is a completely different type of superiority. That is, the expansion of the number of steps (levels of the same order as the difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2) will not allow you to somehow approach to Ou-X.
In this way, Ou-X can get a higher tier even without the actual endless steps. It simply has to surpass the very perspective that shares such steps. You just need to prove that its superiority cannot be achieved by just multiplying the power differences (even endless) that exist between other entities within this fictional Verse.
To prove the transcendence of a hierarchy, we do not necessarily need an infinite hierarchy, although its presence greatly simplifies the proof.
Let us assume that we have three outerversal characters: Ou-1, Ou-2 and Ou-X.
Ou-1 is baseline or somewhere higher.
Ou-2 is superior to Ou-1 by one qualitative step, one level of infinity or something like that.
And Ou-X is superior to both so much so that from this point of view there is a difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2. This is a completely different type of superiority. That is, the expansion of the number of steps (levels of the same order as the difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2) will not allow you to somehow approach to Ou-X.
In this way, Ou-X can get a higher tier even without the actual endless steps. It simply has to surpass the very perspective that shares such steps. You just need to prove that its superiority cannot be achieved by just multiplying the power differences (even endless) that exist between other entities within this fictional Verse.
- 6,167
- 16,318
- Thread starter
- #185
Do you have any actual examples of such verses? Putting stuff like what I described into an Hierarchy would be sorta missing the point entirely and probably just end up making it a lot lower than it should normally be, unless you are stupidly careful.Antvasima said:
Again, Outerversal entities are assumed to share a similar ground of being and size (much like 1-C and 1-B characters), which is formally represented by the hierarchy of aleph numbers in the new system, and the difference between layers in a composite hierarchy may as well just be a way of demonstrating a difference in power, even at such stupidly big scales. Fundamentally superseding this ground of being altogether should definitely let you bypass into higher tiers, even if your verse doesn't have significant hierarchies on an Outerversal level.
- 1,290
- 508
@Ultima Reality, I think Ant means that this types of "ground" is nothing more than just a different type of perspective. As the difference between normal objects and outerversal ones. Different "ground", but you can have any number of such differences.
- 167,692
- 76,285
That is correct, yes. Thank you.DarkLK said:
@DarkLK & Sera
Anyway, do the two of you agree with Ultima's analysis then? If so, I do not have a big problem with it anymore. I just want us to be certain what we are doing, and not apply the highest statistics in the wiki without very good reasons, especially now that they will turn much higher than previously.
- 1,290
- 508
@Antvasima
I see no problems with the principle itself. But the problem apparently is the Verses where even these types of "ground" is simply some kind of perspective.
I.e, "transcend 1-A by the same degree it transcends Low 1-A" is literally a description of a few low steps. I honestly don't know what we will do with it. I can only suggest expanding the criteria to arbitrary degrees of even such transcendence. But I do not know how to save Tier 0 (our sacred cow) in such conditions.
I see no problems with the principle itself. But the problem apparently is the Verses where even these types of "ground" is simply some kind of perspective.
I.e, "transcend 1-A by the same degree it transcends Low 1-A" is literally a description of a few low steps. I honestly don't know what we will do with it. I can only suggest expanding the criteria to arbitrary degrees of even such transcendence. But I do not know how to save Tier 0 (our sacred cow) in such conditions.
- 1,290
- 508
Antvasima, Do as it is more convenient for you. Moreover, it seems that there is still no verse on the wiki where a clear justification for such things would be formulated. Honestly, at the moment, I don't even know how to solve this problem at the ACF, where it is much easier for me to communicate with people and there is no need to save tier 0.
In my opinion disputes around the problem "tier 0 from Verse-1 is weaker than fodder from Verse-2" will remain unresolved in any case.
In my opinion disputes around the problem "tier 0 from Verse-1 is weaker than fodder from Verse-2" will remain unresolved in any case.
- 6,104
- 5,106
There's no issues with Ultima's analysis in principle. It's application where things get messy.
I think we should stay as simple as possible in that when dealing with composite hierarchies, the difference is arbitrary to infinite. Likewise in a hierarchy with quality steps, the difference can also be up to infinite. So infinitely above baseline is just a single step above on an outerversal hierarchy ladder. This is the most consistent formula we can use for these verses.
The Overvoid for example is not the same existence as Michael. That's the conceptual superiority I mentioned earlier and why Matt doesn't like favoring composite hierarchies to get higher results. However Hajun is the same existence as Mercurius. He is infinitely more powerful, but that's doesn't mean he transcends the outerversal hierarchy of the Masadaverse entirely.
What shouldn't matter is "if" they see a 1-A as fiction. It's "how" they see that 1-A as fiction.
I think we should stay as simple as possible in that when dealing with composite hierarchies, the difference is arbitrary to infinite. Likewise in a hierarchy with quality steps, the difference can also be up to infinite. So infinitely above baseline is just a single step above on an outerversal hierarchy ladder. This is the most consistent formula we can use for these verses.
The Overvoid for example is not the same existence as Michael. That's the conceptual superiority I mentioned earlier and why Matt doesn't like favoring composite hierarchies to get higher results. However Hajun is the same existence as Mercurius. He is infinitely more powerful, but that's doesn't mean he transcends the outerversal hierarchy of the Masadaverse entirely.
What shouldn't matter is "if" they see a 1-A as fiction. It's "how" they see that 1-A as fiction.
- 167,692
- 76,285
@Sera
Okay. Thank you for helping out.
It is very hard to precisely evaluate that distinction though, and I hope that our staff members will all do their best to do so in as unbiased manner as they can.
Okay. Thank you for helping out.
It is very hard to precisely evaluate that distinction though, and I hope that our staff members will all do their best to do so in as unbiased manner as they can.
- 6,104
- 5,106
It shouldn't be.
For example.
Character A sees characters as fiction within a hierarchy.
Character B sees the hierarchy itself as fiction.
Or alternatively, without the reality-fiction comparison:
Character C is infinitely superior to characters within a hierarchy.
Character D is exclusively superior to the hierarchy itself.
We can even simplify it even further:
Characters A and C are part of their hierarchies. Characters B and D are outside such hierarchies.
Another way to explain it:
Characters A and C follow the rules of the hierarchy. Characters B and D are not bound by and are superior to the rules of the hierarchy.
I can keep going as there are several ways to describe it. I can even explain them in mathematical terms.
For example.
Character A sees characters as fiction within a hierarchy.
Character B sees the hierarchy itself as fiction.
Or alternatively, without the reality-fiction comparison:
Character C is infinitely superior to characters within a hierarchy.
Character D is exclusively superior to the hierarchy itself.
We can even simplify it even further:
Characters A and C are part of their hierarchies. Characters B and D are outside such hierarchies.
Another way to explain it:
Characters A and C follow the rules of the hierarchy. Characters B and D are not bound by and are superior to the rules of the hierarchy.
I can keep going as there are several ways to describe it. I can even explain them in mathematical terms.
- 10,758
- 6,491
"I can even explain them in mathematical terms."
May you? That would be helpful
May you? That would be helpful
- 1,154
- 659
@Andy
If I'm not wrong, assuming that Character A and C are Outerversal characters, both of them are still within the "Aleph" hierarchy, if I can call it that way. While B and D are outside of it, Wordly/Inaccessible Cardinals beyond any extension, Teta. A and C could go on forever and keep transcending till they start calling themselves that, but as long as they're within the system they'll just be "bigger Alephs" (aleph-4, aleph-67, aleph-infinite...and beyond). Trending to but never reaching Inaccessible Cardinals, B and D.
Hope that was of help.
If I'm not wrong, assuming that Character A and C are Outerversal characters, both of them are still within the "Aleph" hierarchy, if I can call it that way. While B and D are outside of it, Wordly/Inaccessible Cardinals beyond any extension, Teta. A and C could go on forever and keep transcending till they start calling themselves that, but as long as they're within the system they'll just be "bigger Alephs" (aleph-4, aleph-67, aleph-infinite...and beyond). Trending to but never reaching Inaccessible Cardinals, B and D.
Hope that was of help.
- Status
