Tiering System Revisions - Part 3

[Sera_EX]

Let's use a number line for simplicity's sake. Baseline has a value of "1" and the difference between each ascending number is infinite. A and C are still on that number line. They follow the rule that each higher number is infinite greater than the last. Characters B and D are completely different and are not accessible by following the rule of "each ascending number is infinitely greater than the last". You can keep on ascending all day but you'll never reach the superiority of B and D. This is a different kind of superiority.

 

[Sera_EX]

The type of hierarchy is inconsequential to this metric.

A hierarchy of perspectives still follows a set of rules. These rules can be applied mathematically using whatever terminology you see fit (like worldly cardinals or weakly inaccessible). The rule in a hierarchy of perspectives or reality-fiction hierarchy is that your perspective changes with each higher step. Be it experiencing a new concept of infinity or seeing something as fiction. It's all arbitrary since we're equalizing anyway.

Going back to DC. The Overvoid is not bound by the same rules of power and superiority as Lucifer and Michael, or even the Presence. It is a completely different kind of thing form them.

There is not a single verse (that's written well, that is) that has completely different parameters in its hierarchy.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Sera_EX]

Hopefully that clears up why I believe that characters that follow a power level-based system (like Masadaverse) and characters who follow a reality-fiction based system, (like Umineko) should be the same tier, and only the characters who are unbound by such systems are High 1-A or 0 (whichever you prefer).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am not sure if I agree, but you tend to have a better sense of judgement than I do about such issues.

I would prefer if you discuss this issue with DarkLK though. Preferably Azathoth as well, if he replies via Discord.

 

[Sera_EX]

Neither DarkLK or Azathoth have ever implied that perspective hierarchies are fundamentally superior to power scaling chains. That's misinformation being spread by others who don't properly understand how verse equalization works.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it wouldn't hurt to verify in order to make certain.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am 100% with Sera and Ultima on this issue. I think that they are the most reliable when it comes to this system so far.

So I want to ask again. Specifically to the both of them: Would you be alright with a three Tier Option for Low 1-A / 1-A and Tier 0? Such as how I explained it already before? I feel that going through with a solution like that would be the easiest and simplest, and yet still solve all our needs.

Most of everyone is fine with the system change. The only discussion is purely based around semantics with people struggling to stay focused due to the length of the thread and posts.

Assuming that the discussion about Hierarchies and Reality/Fiction Interpretations is cleared up for good, can we finally move to figuring out how to define the top tiers?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sera does make a lot of sense here.

 

[Antvasima]

I would like to see what DarkLK thinks regarding if it is better to use option 3/2 or Matthew's suggestion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Its worth noting that my suggestion is literally the same as either Option 2, but with a slightly simplied system. Overall the discussions between Option 2 and Option 3 seem silly, as both are very similar and equally flawed I find, it's mainly semantical. What with people going back and forth on Low 1-As and High 1-As without discussing their meaning (I myself guilty as charged).

 

[Nepuko]

1-A or Low 1-A, depending on terminology = Finite
1-A or High 1-A, depending on terminology = Infinite

0 = Immeasurable

^ Go with this, please. Everything else is just pointless.

Is this your suggestion Matt? You seem to suggest Option 3 but without the Boundless Tier. Hmm...

 

[Nepuko]

After thinking about it I don't think if that suggestion would be the right one, I don't know about the others but if we follow that and taking Umineko (as the habit is ) as an exemple here, Featherine and the Creator would be in the same tier there, 0, and that dosen't really sit well with me.

But I'm open to anything.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Matt

Option 2 is the neatest and most aesthetically pleasing.

1-A (or Low 1-A, whichever you prefer) = Measurable (as in power-scaling chains and outerversal hierarchies)

High 1-A (or 1-A, whichever you prefer) = Immeasurable (those inaccessible to power-scaling chains or hierarchical steps)

0 (or High 1-A, whichever you prefer) = Boundless (beyond the totality of the tier system)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Nepuko

In regards to Umineko, Featherine would be "At least 1-A"

 

[Sera_EX]

In the Low 1-A ver., Featherine would be 1-A since the Voyagers would be Low 1-A. In the High 1-A version, she'd be High 1-A and Voyagers would be 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

So you do not want a tier for infinite steps of ascension/perspective above base Outerverse level?

 

[Nepuko]

@Matt

Alright. Then maybe you should stick to Option 2 as Sera said, if you prefer 3 tiers for Outerversal. Because in your suggestion, characters like featherine would be "At least Infinite", while they're Immeasurable. So for someone like you who'd like 3 tiers for Outerversal, Measurable | Immeasurable | Boundless would be the best for you, I think.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yep.I'm with Seras decision. And I think we should go along with it.

 

[Sera_EX]

So you do not want a tier for infinite steps of ascension/perspective above base Outerverse level?

I don't know any character that is infinite steps above baseline (keep in mind that the difference between each step in an outerversal hierarchy can be as large as infinite, so for all intents and purposes, someone infinite steps above baseline would be infinite^infinite times baseline). Perhaps Hajun with his immeasurable Taikyoku seems to fit the bill, but that's about it and arguably Featherine. However, making everyone else a lower sub-tier just so Hajun, Featherine, and whatever featless Cthulhu Mythos characters can be in their own little sub-tier is systematically inaccurate compared to the rest of the system. I'm also very aware that is highly possible those characters are exaggerated in the first place.

Also, infinite steps above baseline would still be measurable, not immeasurable, and can be acquired using whatever parameters that verse's outerversal hierarchy uses (Hajun is so powerful only due to his inconceivable Taikyoku, not any conceptual superiority over Hadou Gods). There's no need to separate finite from infinite since they belong to the same system of transcendent superiority.

Edit: At any rate, Featherine would be a tier above the Voyagers anyway as stated above. If they are Low 1-A, she'd be 1-A. If they are 1-A, she'd be High 1-A. Hajun is the same tier as any other Hadou God, just massively above them in the same tier. Cthulhu Mythos scaling is currently very questionable.

 

[Nepuko]

Just adressing this point : All Hadou Gods should be there Sera, along with 6 verses I showed above, according to Aeyu. At least 33 profiles.

@Andy Which is why I'd rather have it its own tier rather than a modifier. As far as I know the latter breaks the convention (that is giving "Infinite" stuff their own tier) more than the first, when we already have something like High 3-A, 2-A, and now 1-B. And I could be wrong, but while I know of its importance, less than 5 tiers would apply for the new High 1-B, while going by Aeyu no less than 6 verses would apply for the "Infinitely-Outerversal" one. I could be wrong, but I think that alone already qualifies to make it its own tier. And I believe that in this case with an additional tier, a better organization.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are you fine with using the option 2 option of a Low 1-A+ (or 1-A+, depending on what we decide to name the tier) for such characters if they should pop up, or should we skip it altogether?

 

[Sera_EX]

Listen carefully. All Hadou Gods are not infinite steps above baseline. The difference between each step can be as large as infinite. I've explained this in numerous ways above. In the case of Taikyoku values, the difference of one is enough to be considered infinite. To imply all the Hadou Gods are infinite steps above baseline is to assume they all have a value of infinity. They don't. They are however, infinitely above baseline. Hajun, however, has an immeasurable Taikyoku value. This is why perhaps only Hajun truly can be considered infinite steps above baseline.

 

[Nepuko]

I disagree with that, but going on would be derail, so I'll leave it there. And as I said, I was reposting what Aeyu said about them being 1-A, and hence infinite steps above baseline.

┬»┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»┬»

 

[Andytrenom]

Can't comment on the number of qualifying characters but I do agree there isn't a need to separate finite and infinite steps. With multiverses and Higher Ds we primarily rank number of universes and dimensions respectively, even categorizing a finite number of either value if they are notable enough, it makes sense to give infinites their own tier here

I don't believe it's as necessary for outerversal tiers when we have characters transcending the very systems by which another character's strength is measured.

And once again it's not like we aren't distinguishing characters at such high levels of power at all, we are just doing it in a bit unconventional way, the + sign still exists to identify characters on top of an infinite hierarchy

 

[Sera_EX]

Also, "six verses"? Six? Really? I'm sorry but I find that very hard to believe.

To quote DarkLK:

Moreover, it seems that there is still no verse on the wiki where a clear justification for such things would be formulated.

I completely agree with his statement. I'm getting impatient with people claiming all these newly introduced verses have all these insane hierarchies and now our tier system must bend to their standards. That's not how it works. First of all, we will be reviewing all the Tier 1 verses, especially 1-A verses anyway as many of them are suspiciously inflated and likely highly exaggerated.

 

[Nepuko]

If you want Sera, I can send you the screenshot of when Aeyu said that in DMs......as I said I'm literally repeating what Aeyu told me, so it seems like there was miscommunication? or she changed her mind suddenly?

 

[Sera_EX]

Do I really have to mention that you're technically using an "appeal to authority" fallacious argument? I'm also sure she didn't mean literal quality steps but characters several degrees of infinity above baseline.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so should we use option 2 then?

Also, what naming procedure should we use in that case?

Low 1-A | Low 1-A+ | 1-A | 0

Or

1-A | 1-A+ | High 1-A | 0

Nepuko also doesn't mean any harm. He is just trying to be of help and get clarifications.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm not upset with him.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem then.

 

[Andytrenom]

Low 1-A | Low 1-A+ | 1-A | 0

Or

1-A | 1-A+ | High 1-A | 0

I think the second one is better. Being beyond hausdroff space-time is just a more well defined version of current 1-A, so there's no reason to create low 1-A with that definition and push 1-A to such an extreme degree of outerversal power

 

[Nepuko]

@SewaEw I..I obviously was saying that because you guys are working together....why would I appeal authority to the mother of the wiki smh.

All bullies here...t-this is bullyland. @Ant is my only hope in this dark world ;-;

But you said technically so you're only half a bully.

Ok sorry for derail.

 

[Antvasima]

@Andy

Okay. That seems fine to me.

 

[Nepuko]

So, are we going by that version of Option 2 then?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so.

 

[Nepuko]

Well, if this is the consensus then too bad cool. As long as everybody's okay on that, I suggest we move on if no question marks still remain.

 

[Sera_EX]

As always I care about accuracy of the characters. I couldn't care less about what Option we choose as they could all work. As it stands I'm increasingly worried about how unreliable our ratings will be regardless of what we choose.

 

[Antvasima]

Please elaborate.

 

[Sera_EX]

People are making a trend out of introducing new material to our site and forcing us to reinvent our standards to better suit that new information.

Off the top of my head:

The Singularity in Masadaverse

Cthulhu Mythos and the "infinite gates"

The Human Domain being 1-A in Umineko

All these things that require careful analysis are just being shoved into our faces when they haven't even been implemented to our current files yet, but for some reason we're still trying to devise our standards for this new information which we haven't even confirmed is reliable or legitimate.