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Tiering System Revisions - Part 3

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Sera EX said:
There are no infinite outerversal characters on site though.
Click to expand...
That doesn't sound right. By infinite, do you mean a single infinite above baseline or infinite levels of infinite above baseline?
 
Anyway, if we genuinely barely do have any characters that would qualify for infinite levels above baseline, Sera has a point. I don't think that it would be a disaster if Akuto Sai, a few Cthulhu Mythos characters, and maybe Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, end up at Low 1-A+ instead.
 
I think people are misunderstanding what the labels meal to begin with, and even what is necessary for any raking whatsoever.

What with people seemingly failing to understand why something like the Overvoid would qualify as High 1-A in this new system.
 
I am also 100% with Sera on this. We don't need four outerversal tiers.

Even in Ant's suggestion, there is 0 difference between Immeasurable and Boundless.

Low 1-A = Finite

1-A = Infinite

0 = Immesuarable/Boundless

That's all we need. Don't bring back High 1-A.
 
The Overvoid only has a single Reality - Fiction Interaction transcendence compared to most other, somewhat above baseline, 1-A characters of its setting. As such it should be rated unfathomably below Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, who have an absolutely massive number, not above them.

Much of the point of this is to get rid of exaggerated ratings and mixing up characters of a very different scale and nature, not to severely worsen the problem.

Even if we personally like a character or setting, we should still strive for accuracy.
 
>Single Reality -Fiction Interaction

You say this type of shit as if it matters a lot. You overhype the hell out of Umineko and practically worship it, Daimao and Masada, none of which are particularly special on the end of day, they just have the most overhyping fans who exaggerate the ever living hell out of the statements.

Dark Tower, Elder Scrolls and DC are just as impressive and they do it through philosophy and not being stupid about "layers" or whatnot.

It's not my fault you cannot even understand basic metaphysis, saying that shit like the Amaranth is near baseline. Talk about bias.
 
Again, I could care less about Umineko, Masada, and Daimao in terms of affection for the characters and storylines, as I have not even been interested enough to read them, but I do have an obsession with scaling, indexing, and accuracy, and from what I have had explained to me, Umineko and Daimao qualify as extremely high.

There is also no reason to get hostile over something like this.
 
Again, if you want a list of the verses that I do have an affection for, read my user page, and take note that the vast majority of them have very low tiers. I think that I have largely managed to keep my biases in check.
 
No, it's the you somehow think that stacking up literal "My Infinity is larger than yours" stuff matters on a 1-A scale when that is literally never how something is defined as boundless.

The only Western Work you don't undersell is Cthulhu Mythos because others don't repeat words so much.

I have not the slightest clue how anyone short of Featherine would be in the second highest tier in Umineko, and something like Masada might not even be 1-A anymore now that "Hyperdimensional Space" isn't an automatic win.
 
Sera EX said:
There are no infinite outerversal characters on site though.
Click to expand...
According to Aeyu, there is no less than 6 verses that qualify for infinite layers above baseline, and at the very least 33 characters from one of those verses. But honestly at this point, whatever helps us go the next stage :/
 
Wait...if infinite is referring to infinite levels of transcendence, then finite means finite levels of transcendence?
 
Just to clarify a few things, since you still seem to have completely misunderstood the way that I function after all of these years:

I am autistic. Among other things that means that I get obsessively fixated on structures and statistics. That is my motivation in all of this.

Regarding my personal preferences in entertainment, I am emotionally underdeveloped in some respects. I like Phineas & Ferb, My Little Pony, and The Penguins of Madagascar.

The Cthulhu Mythos is about existential cosmic horror, and Umineko is largely about a bunch of nigh-omnipotent sociopaths who spend their time torturing and violating lower beings to have something to do. Neither remotely fit what I enjoy.

Yet I almost consistently set my biases aside, and advocate to give the latter high tiers that rationally seem to fit. Why? Because, again, I am not driven by bias, but by an obsession with structure and what I genuinely believe is accurate and reliable. I do not function in a more "normal" manner in this regard. And then I somehow get agitated accusations in my direction anyway.
 
"at the very least 33 characters from one of those verses"

This isn't Twin Peaks is it
 
As far as I have understood, both The Unwritten, the Cthulhu Mythos, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou, and Umineko no Naku Koro ni are built on the concepts of beyond infinite ascending hierarchies in which a single layer of difference is equivalent to perceiving anything below them as fiction or being completely transcendent and qualitatively superior to it in some other manner. Yet, we should apparently somehow ignore all of that, and severely exaggerate franchises that do not remotely fulfill such requirements far beyond what is warranted. That is not a good idea for the reliability of this wiki as far as I am concerned.
 
Afaik, the infinite transcendence thing is supposed to be

R^R^R...repeated endlessly, with R^R^R already being a figure beyond all hausdroff dimensionality

No clue what is able to be equated to this tho
 
According to Aeyu, there is no less than 6 verses that qualify for infinite layers above baseline, and at the very least 33 characters from one of those verses. But honestly at this point, whatever helps us go the next stage :/

That's irrelevant to my point. My point is all of those verses and characters would still be part of the outerversal stairway and thus should not be considered a higher tier than those at the bottom of the stairway. That completely misrepresents our system and I still cannot understand why anyone would want to separate them.

Again. Just look at how the application would work.

First step = Low 1-A

Second to Infinite steps = 1-A

Beyond the stairway = High 1-A

Beyond those beyond the stairway = 0

The separation of Low 1-A from 1-A as well as the arbitrary existence of 0 in this case misrepresent our system's purpose.
 
Sera EX said:
According to Aeyu, there is no less than 6 verses that qualify for infinite layers above baseline, and at the very least 33 characters from one of those verses. But honestly at this point, whatever helps us go the next stage :/That's irrelevant to my point. My point is all of those verses and characters would still be part of the outerversal stairway and thus should not be considered a higher tier than those at the bottom of the stairway. That completely misrepresents our system and I still cannot understand why anyone would want to separate them.
Again. Just look at how the application would work.

First step = Low 1-A

Second to Infinite steps = 1-A

Beyond the stairway = High 1-A

Beyond those beyond the stairway = 0

The separation of Low 1-A from 1-A as well as the arbitrary existence of 0 in this case misrepresent our system's purpose.
Click to expand...
How would that even work? When you put it like that it sounds nonsensical.
 
As far as I have understood, both The Unwritten, the Cthulhu Mythos, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou, and Umineko no Naku Koro ni are built on the concepts of beyond infinite ascending hierarchies in which a single layer of difference is equivalent to perceiving anything below them as fiction or being completely transcendent and qualitatively superior to it in some other manner. Yet, we should apparently somehow ignore all of that, and severely exaggerate franchises that do not remotely fulfill such requirements far beyond what is warranted. That is not a good idea for the reliability of this wiki as far as I am concerned.

That's not at all what I said. I suppose I have to break down exactly what I mean yet again.
 
@Lightbuster

That's literally my point. It's nonsensical and doesn't work.

@All

If you really want to separate Umineko-level characters from Chousin-level characters, I highly recommend bringing back and going with Option 1, that's why Ultima invented it in the first place.

You cannot have both. That was the mistake of Option 3. Either we have the "superior" outerversal classification system and compress the higher dimensional tiers into 1-C just to make room for it, or go with Option 2 and have a more balanced outerversal classification system and the higher dimensional tiers get left alone.

You can't have both. It doesn't work.
 
I'm pretty sure that's just a simplification, both High 1-A and 0 are supposed to be based on two distinct mathematical concepts, something called a strong limit cardinal for the former and something known as a proper class for the latter

Ultima might be able to elaborate
 
Sera EX said:
According to Aeyu, there is no less than 6 verses that qualify for infinite layers above baseline, and at the very least 33 characters from one of those verses. But honestly at this point, whatever helps us go the next stage :/

That's irrelevant to my point. My point is all of those verses and characters would still be part of the outerversal stairway and thus should not be considered a higher tier than those at the bottom of the stairway. That completely misrepresents our system and I still cannot understand why anyone would want to separate them.

Again. Just look at how the application would work.

First step = Low 1-A

Second to Infinite steps = 1-A

Beyond the stairway = High 1-A

Beyond those beyond the stairway = 0

The separation of Low 1-A from 1-A as well as the arbitrary existence of 0 in this case misrepresent our system's purpose.
Click to expand...
"First | second to infinite" is a terrible idea. At the very least, "one+ | infinite" is at least less arbitrary.
 
1-A or Low 1-A, depending on terminology = Finite

1-A or High 1-A, depending on terminology = Infinite

0 = Immeasurable

^ Go with this, please. Everything else is just pointless.
 
Sera EX said:
If you really want to separate Umineko-level characters from Chousin-level characters, I highly recommend bringing back and going with Option 1, that's why Ultima invented it in the first place.

You cannot have both. That was the mistake of Option 3. Either we have the "superior" outerversal classification system and compress the higher dimensional tiers into 1-C just to make room for it, or go with Option 2 and have a more balanced outerversal classification system and the higher dimensional tiers get left alone.

You can't have both. It doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Please explain.

@Matthew

Please calm down and stop being rude in your comments.
 
Also, @Ant, my point is that you can't merely rely on stacking infinities and endless sequences of Big Words to determine what is boundless, specially since at 1-A most mathematics start to break down and be inconsequential.

These so-called "Layers of Transcendence" are just the same thing as Dragon Ball Scaling Chains but masked under a thin veil of pretentiousness that makes it seem like they mean much. When in fact they don't. Trying to quantify 1-As via how many people they are stronger than is laughable, specially seeing as the truly impressive 1-As are even things which you would use language like "Strength", "Power" and "Fight" to describe.

A series like Demon King Daimao might spend 20 paragraphs wailing on about Fiction and Reality and how the Law of Identity is always above such distinctions no matter how high you go, but to me personally that just comes off as an author being unable to convey their point with brevity. And that Daimao is nothing but a generic self-insert harem series that decided out of nowhere it wanted to be pretentious and metatextual in the very last volume doesn't help at all.

Meanwhile I find that the definition given to the Overvoid in Grant Morrison's work is elegant and simple, and conveys just as much the same idea and weight as any number of big words and mathematical concepts H.P. Lovecraft used to explain his supreme beings.

To me, personally, the writing used to describe the Amaranth in Loveletter from the Fifth Era is a far more profound, meaningful, convincing and effective description of what a boundless god truly is. And it never once lays sight of what is truly important. It doesn't rely on any talk of layers, reality-fiction gaps, levels of infinity, or any other pretentious gooblygook. It just says what needs to be said.
 
The God Of Procrastination said:
What do you mean?
Click to expand...
I mean that although I have a lot of unfiltered perception and pattern-recognition regarding what really seems to be going on in the world, I am not mature enough to properly deal with it, and need relaxing upbeat entertainment to cheer up.
 
Sera EX said:
I think measurable and immeasurable work better as terms than finite and infinite (those are what keep causing confusion) but yes I completely agree with Matt.
Click to expand...
This works too. Measurable Outerversal, Immeasurable Outerversal and Boundless. Makes the tiering less about crazy numbers, too.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
1-A or Low 1-A, depending on terminology = Finite

1-A or High 1-A, depending on terminology = Infinite

0 = Immeasurable

^ Go with this, please. Everything else is just pointless.
Click to expand...
I would not mind this so much.
 
As far as I have understood, both The Unwritten, the Cthulhu Mythos, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou, and Umineko no Naku Koro ni are built on the concepts of beyond infinite ascending hierarchies in which a single layer of difference is equivalent to perceiving anything below them as fiction or being completely transcendent and qualitatively superior to it in some other manner.

In Umineko, I don't think that these reality-fiction differences apply to their 1-A incarnations, just their avatars and worlds.
 
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