Tier Low 6-B Tournament of Regeneration 2022: Licht vs Yu Kanda

[Arnoldstone18]

Also why Yu gotta fly? He blocking all Licht's attacks and plus lichts best attacks come from his swords I thought

Again read my argument above. I took time and energy to send that man

it’s titled demon dweller and demon destroyer, I tagged it in my most recent post above

 

[LordGinSama]

He isn't absorbing Yu's Innocence, Innocence is not Magic.

 

[speedster352]

He isn't absorbing Yu's Innocence, Innocence is not Magic.

innocence won't work he is not evil

 

[Arkenis]

Again read my argument above. I took time and energy to send that man

it’s titled demon dweller and demon destroyer, I tagged it in my most recent post above

read.

Lichts force fields are getting destroyed, Innocence negs forcefields.
Absorption could be a problem but I don't remember it being passive so start of fight if Yu felt himself getting drained he'd just jump back until it didn't affect him.

The amount of AP boost Licht will obtain as a result is 1.7 Teratons + 1.3 Teratons = 3 teratons (Low 6B).
This ap amp is laughable compared to Yu's amps. In base Yu took a 1.7 Teraton hit, and 1.7 compared to 3 Teratons is not enough to one shot.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Not enough for equalization

Because?

they are both supernatural divine energies used for purification.

 

[Arkenis]

innocence won't work he is not evil

That's not the point. Innocence is directly different to magic in dgm and Licht wouldn't be able to absorb it. They've already argued how they wont equalize.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m tagged 10 times…. 10 TIMES…

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He isn't absorbing Yu's Innocence, Innocence is not Magic.

It doesn’t have to be called “magic”, SBA states the supernatural energies can be equalized if they share similarities

 

[Arkenis]

Because?

they are both supernatural divine energies used for purification.

He literally explained the massive difference between them

I fail to see how they equalize. Saint Stage doesn't passively Manipulate causality itself to create unexplainable phenomenons, nor is it power given by a portion of God. The only similarities are that both are "Holy." which is not enough for the energies to be equalized.

Like come on now there's no way you think there's a significant enough comparison when Innocence has passive Causality, is actually from the God of the verse, and can effect dm on a macro quantum scale. These energies don't even remotely operate similarly beyond being Purifying types which isn't an indication of similarity but just a single affect.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Like come on now there's no way you think there's a significant enough comparison when Innocence has passive Causality, is actually from the God of the verse, and can effect dm on a macro quantum scale. These energies don't even remotely operate similarly beyond being Purifying types which isn't an indication of similarity but just a single affect.

Both supernatural energies that purifies akuma/devils and destroy devils/akumas.

Even concept of synchronization is similar.

We have equalized for far less. Or you gonna say Etherano is soooo similar to mana that Asta can negate it?

Edit: I’ll come back to you, this thread is very busy, and I’m bombarded rn.

 

[Arkenis]

Both supernatural energies that purifies akuma/devils and destroy devils/akumas.

Even concept of synchronization is similar.

We have equalized for far less. Or you gonna say Etherano is soooo similar to mana that Asta can negate it?

Edit: I’ll come back to you, this thread is very busy, and I’m bombarded rn.

Idek what etherano is. And as I said and you ignored, purification is a single effect not a basis for equalization when Innocence does so much more

 

[Arkenis]

Does Saint Stage: negate space time barriers? negate causality based intangibility? cause passive causality to happen? deconstruct evil beings on a macro quantum scale?

 

[LordGinSama]

innocence won't work he is not evil

Not what I even said but okay.


Once again, Speed stop talking about shit you know nothing about.

 

[LordGinSama]

It doesn’t have to be called “magic”, SBA states the supernatural energies can be equalized if they share similarities

"Enough" similarities.


Innocence is not similar enough to Magic to be considered the same.

 

[LordGinSama]

Both supernatural energies that purifies akuma/devils and destroy devils/akumas.

Even concept of synchronization is similar.

We have equalized for far less. Or you gonna say Etherano is soooo similar to mana that Asta can negate it?

Edit: I’ll come back to you, this thread is very busy, and I’m bombarded rn.

Etherano is already considered the same as Magic in Black Clover.

 

[Arkenis]

Katsura sensei when she sees people tryna compare bc magic to innocence.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He isn't absorbing Yu's Innocence, Innocence is not Magic.

Which is why we should equalize for a proper fight. Mana and Innocence are both supernatural energies. Mana can be innocence provided certain conditions are met.

An attack mage (a mage possess mana) with a spirit (beings made of mana) must resonate with each other close to 100% and attain the ability to purify and destroy devils.

Mana can replicate innocence therefore it should be equalized for a fair fight!

Under SBA ofc and a pretty please from @DemonicDude

Idek what etherano is. And as I said and you ignored, purification is a single effect not a basis for equalization when Innocence does so much more

Etherano are magic particles that power well.. magic in Fairy Tale. There are a ton of difference between Etherano and mana but we equalize them anyway based on a couple of fundamental similarities.

Does Saint Stage: negate space time barriers? negate causality based intangibility? cause passive causality to happen? deconstruct evil beings on a macro quantum scale?

Even though I will say yes for the last question, it does not matter as long as the super natural energies are similar.

Mana and Innocence can perform the same actions provided their respective conditions are met.


Now that both of you have probably read my argument, I don’t want to scroll up and reply stuff anymore. So I will continue from where these messages tagged here stops

 

[Arkenis]

Mana can be innocence provided certain conditions are met.

Massive conditions

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Innocence is not similar enough to Magic to be considered the same.

1. Can only be used by Spirit users / accommodators
2. Needs to be synchronized with their innocence/spirit
3. Can purify devils/Akuma
4. Can destroy Devils/Akuma
5. They are both supernatural energies that perform supernatural functions
6. Regular magic can’t destroy devils/Akuma
7. Users of both have spirit weapons/innocence weapons.

I hope this doesn’t devolve to “it’s not called magic therefore it shouldn’t be equalized”. I assume we are bigger than that.

The only difference is Mana is very versatile (it can perform functions of three different power systems) whereas D’gray man seperates these three power systems but they are all supernatural energies…

 

[Arkenis]

I hope this doesn’t devolve to “it’s not called magic therefore it shouldn’t be equalized”. I assume we are bigger than that.

Magic in dgm isn't even called Innocence. So yea Imma have to use that as an argument.

 

[Arkenis]

I mean besides this, what's to say Yu can't just slap back Lichts attacks? Yu got the stronger Ls and people struggle with holding back Lichts attacks.

 

[LordGinSama]

1. Can only be used by Spirit users / accommodators

Spirit Users and Accommodators are not the same, once again the only similarities are that of the Holy / Soul aspect.

Spirit Users do not gain their powers from the God of their verse. Spirit Users do not purge on a marco quantum level. Spirit Users do passively manipulate causality. Spirit Users cannot neg forcefields.

They are not the same or even similar enough to be equalized.

2. Needs to be synchronized with their innocence/spirit.

Irrelevant.

3. Can purify devils/Akuma

Devils and Akuma are not the same.


Devil's regenerate, Akuma do not. Akuma are hunks of metal given souls, Devils are not. Akuma use Dark Matter which contains hax that Devils do not have. Devils use a form of Magic, Akuma do not.

4. Can destroy Devils/Akuma

Irrelevant, Akuma are not the same as Devil's. Apples to Oranges.

5. They are both supernatural energies that perform supernatural functions.

Not quite, them being supernatural in nature isn't grounds for equalization. They do not function similarly (Saint Stage does not passively manipulate Causality, does not destroy at a macro quantum level, does not negate force fields, does not originate from the literal God of the verse, and is Magic based whereas Innocence is not.)

6. Regular magic can’t destroy devils/Akuma

Which is irrelevant, and Magic (Cross's Magic.) explicitly works on Akuma.

7. Users of both have spirit.

Which is the case for every verse, and unlike BC, DGM has layered soul Manipulation.

weapons/innocence weapons.

????

I hope this doesn’t devolve to “it’s not called magic therefore it shouldn’t be equalized”. I assume we are bigger than that.

Blatant strawman and argument from ignorance. It's been explained to you multiple times that Innocence cannot be equalized to Magic.

The only difference is Mana is very versatile (it can perform functions of three different power systems) whereas D’gray man seperates these three power systems but they are all supernatural energies…

Innocence and Dark Matter are much more versatile than Mana.

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean besides this, what's to say Yu can't just slap back Lichts attacks? Yu got the stronger Ls and people struggle with holding back Lichts attacks.

Nothing bc now apparently Mana has 6+ layers, beyond Marco quantum levels of soul destruction, Passive causality Manipulation, EE, with every attack.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Spirit Users and Accommodators are not the same, once again the only similarities are that of the Holy / Soul aspect.

never said they were the same thing though.

I said only Spirit users and accommodators can purify devils/Akuma in their verse.

why the misinterpretation?

Spirit Users do not gain their powers from the God of their verse.

Neither does innocence, it’s just a certain material of unknown origins that was given the name “Crystal of God” many years ago.

Spirit Users do not purge on a marco quantum level. Spirit Users do passively manipulate causality. Spirit Users cannot neg forcefields.

1. I don’t need it to be exactly the same. As long as the fundamental principles are present (yknow… purifying evil beings and holiness and stuff).
2. Please read below, especially the ones in bold

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses.

Mechanics and similarity I have already mentioned… Calling side abilities and functions are really just irrelevant to the standards of verse equalization. Licht simply wouldn’t get those extra perks.

Irrelevant

Mechanics are not irrelevant

Devils and Akuma are not the same.

again, never said they were the same entities. I said they are somehow similar. they just have to be unholy evil beings that can be destroyed via purification for verse equalization to work. Again similar mechanics.

Not quite, them being supernatural in nature isn't grounds for equalization. They do not function similarly

(I read what you said right after this) You’re missing the point. I am equalizing mana/magic and innocence because purification and Saint stage mage ability to destroy devils is STILL magic.

Which is the case for every verse, and unlike BC, DGM has layered soul Manipulation.
????

Don’t split my message in two again please, thank you.

You literally corrupted my argument and you accuse me of strawman? Lol very funny, part of me hopes it was an accident.

Which is irrelevant, and Magic (Cross's Magic.) explicitly works on Akuma

If you are talking about him using magic to control a paralysis type innocence then no… plus I never said magic don’t work I said it can’t be used to kill.

Innocence and Dark Matter are much more versatile than Mana.

well that’s your opinion boss

 

[Arnoldstone18]

no, link

Just seeing this my bad.

but it seems you’ve read it.

Etherano is already considered the same as Magic in Black Clover.

But with your reasoning I can pick out a bunch of abilities Etherano can do that Bc magic can’t and vice versa. And claim Etherano can’t be equalized because mana isn’t Etherano.

Right?

Magic in dgm isn't even called Innocence. So yea Imma have to use that as an argument.

They don’t need to be “called” magic.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

To be honest, why do we need to completely equate these supernatural energies.

if it was possible, we would not need to equalize in the first place

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean besides this, what's to say Yu can't just slap back Lichts attacks? Yu got the stronger Ls and people struggle with holding back Lichts attacks.

danmaku bro. Why would he hold back danmaku… taking strikes and blasts from Amped Licht.

 

[Arkenis]

They don’t need to be “called” magic.

Not really my point. I'm more on the fact that Magic in dgm is already different from Innocence, and then you're tryna make bc Saint Stage similar cuz of Purification.

To be honest, why do we need to completely equate these supernatural energies.

if it was possible, we would not need to equalize in the first place

So you don't want them equalized? I'm confused, we don't actually need them to be equalized for this fight to happen or for the energies to interact, you just want it so your character can get an advantage, an overwhelming advantage might I add. Your character just won't be able to absorb or other hax but the hax can still work on Yu himself.

 

[Nierre]

To be honest, why do we need to completely equate these supernatural energies.

if it was possible, we would not need to equalize in the first place

Yeah I agree with this sentiment. Tho I'm not saying it's applicable in this specific scenario- I don't think it makes much sense for energies to be completely the same. As long as they function similarly then it should work.

 

[Arkenis]

danmaku bro. Why would he hold back danmaku… taking strikes and blasts from Amped Licht.

let me see his danmaku

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So you don't want them equalized? I'm confused, we don't actually need them to be equalized for this fight to happen or for the energies to interact, you just want it so your character can get an advantage, an overwhelming advantage might I add. Your character just won't be able to absorb or other hax but the hax can still work on Yu himself.

HUHHH

ME GIVE LICHT AN ADVANTAGE?

BRO IM TRYING TO MAKE HIM NOT BE AT A DISADVANTAGE

the arguments here are just “it’s not magic so all of Licth’s ability won’t work”

How is this a fair fight?

Not really my point. I'm more on the fact that Magic in dgm is already different from Innocence, and then you're tryna make bc Saint Stage similar cuz of Purification.

And I fully acknowledge this.
The verse has 3 supernatural energy systems.
I know.

but saying innocence and magic can’t be equalized because there is already magic in the verse is flawed.

In Black Clover, there are two (or three) mana systems. Mana/magic, negative mana/forbidden magic (magic from the underworld), devil magic (this may not be different from regular magic as it’s just mana with intense malice), Anti magic, True magic/nature mana. They are three different supernatural energies that have their own plot purposes but are similar because it’s called magic. Demon Dweller doesn’t discriminate even to anti magic, cuz that’s not magic.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah I agree with this sentiment. Tho I'm not saying it's applicable in this specific scenario- I don't think it makes much sense for energies to be completely the same. As long as they function similarly then it should work.

Exactly!!

 

[Arnoldstone18]

let me see his danmaku

 

[Arnoldstone18]

let me see his danmaku

 

[AnonymousBlank]

BRO IM TRYING TO MAKE HIM NOT BE AT A DISADVANTAGE

Aight. You see this? This doesn’t matter. What do you think any fight between Licht or Asta or Zagred or whoever comes down to against a magic user? Licht’s entire kit not doing shit in a fight is just tough luck as that’s the exact same thing every magic user he is thrown against has to deal with. With your logic, we shouldn’t equalise energies when magic users fight magic power null since the magic user will be put at a disadvantage.

Every fight has advantages and disadvantages because that’s how fights work. The winner being the guy who has the bigger advantage over the other one.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Aight. You see this? This doesn’t matter. What do you think any fight between Licht or Asta or Zagred or whoever comes down to against a magic user? Licht’s entire kit not doing shit in a fight is just tough luck as that’s the exact same thing every magic user he is thrown against has to deal with. With your logic, we shouldn’t equalise energies when magic users fight magic power null since the magic user will be put at a disadvantage.

Every fight has advantages and disadvantages because that’s how fights work. The winner being the guy who has the bigger advantage over the other one.

“it doesn’t matter”
“It’s just tough luck”
“With my logic, we shouldn’t equlize energies when magic users fight magic power null because magic users will be put at a disadvantage”

For starters, that will be a stomp match… With “my logic” I am hoping for a fair fight. I don’t appreciate that.

The past two to four matches in this tournament we either attempted to equalize energies, restricted abilities (Yu vs Issei: Issei was heavily restricted), changed literal characters, added an entire ocean to the tournament location that has no ocean at all.

For a fair fight

But when it’s my turn, “it’s just tough luck”

right?

Alright then…

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’d like to tackle Kanda’s boost.

Kanda’s speed and power are boosted unquantifiably but yet we treat it as speed blitzing… why?

Licht can also amp his speed with reinforcement magic, can fly with great freedom and maneuverability, possesses stealth mastery and teleportation.

Licht can also amp his power with reinforcement magic, can also draw power from the underworld to amp himself. So what exactly puts Yu over Licht with those amps?

So why exactly does Yu Kanda speed blitz

What stops Litch from spamming attacks in the air. Yu Kanda can’t even fly. If he had a brain, he won’t use his suicide amps against someone who he can’t reach and can’t sense

 

[AnonymousBlank]

“it doesn’t matter”
“It’s just tough luck”
“With my logic, we shouldn’t equlize energies when magic users fight magic power null because magic users will be put at a disadvantage”

For starters, that will be a stomp match… With “my logic” I am hoping for a fair fight. I don’t appreciate that.

Fights don’t have to be fair. That’s how stomps exist in vs debating. What you want to do is skew something in someone’s favor when it’s not needed. If Yu simply resisted Licht’s power null via sheer layers, would you be asking to remove his resistances? I would think not as that is unreasonable. What’s happening here is the same. Yu doesn’t use magic and you are trying to equate whatever Yu has to magic in BC off of some generic traits. We don’t equate reiatsu and Haki just because reiatsu can boost AP/dura and make people foam at the mouth/fall unconscious with aura.

The past two to four matches in this tournament we either attempted to equalize energies, restricted abilities (Yu vs Issei: Issei was heavily restricted), changed literal characters, added an entire ocean to the tournament location that has no ocean at all.

Energies get equalised when it makes sense. How was Yu vs Issei heavily restricted? They both had access to their full kits.

I disagree with changing characters as a whole and the ocean thing was absolutely stupid. Swapping out ENO however made perfect sense as no one had the ability to actually do anything to him. He was a giant blob of water that no one could actually disperse and lacked shit like a mind, soul or energy system for people to even affect.

For a fair fight

But when it’s my turn, “it’s just tough luck”

Bro … did you even see what happened in the last Low 6-B tourney? It was Asta, Dry and a dozen+ magic users who all got passively nulled by Asta. That shit sure ain’t fair but Asta still stomped 90% of the tourney because that’s how the dice rolled. If anything, yes it’s your turn to have to deal with “it’s just tough luck”.

right?

Alright then…

Come on dude. Don’t play the victim here when this was the same thing as Issei vs Licht. Sacred Gears aren’t magic and are separate from all the different energy systems in DxD so Licht couldn’t anti magic that shit. Are you saying we should redo that match and make it so that Issei’s only powers that worked get negged? Because that is exactly what you are asking right now. If someone doesn’t use magic, that is tough luck. It’s not like people are specifically picking matches where Licht can’t do anything when there is a whole host of varying characters who are then thrown into randomised matches.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Bro … did you even see what happened in the last Low 6-B tourney? It was Asta, Dry and a dozen+ magic users who all got passively nulled by Asta. That shit sure ain’t fair but Asta still stomped 90% of the tourney because that’s how the dice rolled. If anything, yes it’s your turn to have to deal with “it’s just tough luck”

Now I see where the hesitation comes from. I understand now.

Energies get equalised when it makes sense. How was Yu vs Issei heavily restricted? They both had access to their full kits.

I disagree with changing characters as a whole and the ocean thing was absolutely stupid. Swapping out ENO however made perfect sense as no one had the ability to actually do anything to him. He was a giant blob of water that no one could actually disperse and lacked shit like a mind, soul or energy system for people to even affect.

Issei couldn’t use his divide and boost effectively. Last time I checked Kanda won the match, or did Issei win?

ENO was ENW and Jin could disperse it but there was an issue of ENW not being 6B so it became ENO. Mind stuff was arguable. But it’s fine that he’s out.

If Yu simply resisted Licht’s power null via sheer layers, would you be asking to remove his resistances?

No I won’t, I won’t call for a fair match unless I notice how the debates have been going thus far.

I know stomp matches exist but I need to exhaust all of my options before accepting defeat.

Sorry for the tantrum. I’ve moved on from equalizing the energies. I think Licht can still fight without it. I realized that during the proposal.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I only requested for it to be equalized thinking Licht was at a disadvantage. My judgement was based on how the debate was going and I didn’t make my own analysis.

Although Licht’s abilities are restricted, I know it’s still a fair fight. I know that now.

I’d like to tackle Kanda’s boost.

Kanda’s speed and power are boosted unquantifiably but yet we treat it as speed blitzing… why?

Licht can also amp his speed with reinforcement magic, can fly with great freedom and maneuverability, possesses stealth mastery and teleportation.

Licht can also amp his power with reinforcement magic, can also draw power from the underworld to amp himself. So what exactly puts Yu over Licht with those amps?

So why exactly does Yu Kanda speed blitz

What stops Litch from spamming attacks in the air. Yu Kanda can’t even fly. If he had a brain, he won’t use his suicide amps against someone who he can’t reach and can’t sense