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Tier 0 Mathiverse

Our current "Writer" profile from DC Comics is literally no different from Flatterland humans; normal people who created a High 1-A story, but are still...human. We even rate them as having variable gender, interests, and personalities.

So this random "they are humans they can't be Tier 0" stuff is not even consistent with other Tier 0 profiles in the wiki.
 
To be fair Kep, Ant has opposed The Writer's 0 rating as well as the existence of the character and its page for a long time now. He's just conceded since the page was strongly defended.
 
They are not portrayed as anything greater than ourselves, and the mathiverse is just a thought experiment from them/us, not a demonstration of raw power. Accepting them/us as tier 0 would make our wiki far more ridiculous than previously.
 
Yes, The Writer was stated to be our one exception to our usual Reality - Fiction Interaction rules, because we couldn't avoid it in that case. We cannot make it a habit to make author or audience avatar characters spam our highest tier. Our wiki has a bad enough reputation for being ridiculous and extremely unreliable as it is.
 
I do not know. It depends on if some of our staff still want to create tier 0 profiles or not, especially ones based on tier 10 regular humans.
 
If you're gonna close this, I just want to say my intention was to never throw shade at Sera, nor did I have really any good idea of the circumstances that lead up to her rant about how she feels frustrated for keep being called in threads like these even though she clearly does not like this part of the tiering system and is making sum revisions for it. I can't speak for everyone, but I want to let it be known when I corrected her it was not suppose to be interpreted as some kind of attack towards her, and I just wanted to clear up the current standards a bit.
 
@MYHERO

I took no offense at anything you said, so no worries there. I was addressing Ultima's comment of "people disagreeing with something and then dropping the topic only for someone else to pick it up and continue it at full force". Since after all, I made it clear I don't like partaking in these threads as I'm strongly against our current method(s) of doing things.

@Everyone else

We should keep this open btw, as I believe Ultima asked us to.
 
@Ultima The worry I have with that sort of interpretation is it sounds like it disqualifies most Flatland characters from having their tiers. If A Square, A Sphere, King of Lineland, Arthur Square, and Queens of Lineland are all at the bottom of a virtual tier 0 construct rather than a real world, why are they rated 11-B to 10-B? They should all be bumped down one level of fictionality for being virtual constructs created by 10-B humans.

Or at this point should we just separate Flatland and Flatterland when thinking about these profiles? Since Flatterland was written by a fan far later with no relation to the original author.
 
@Sera

I was not specifically referring to you in that post, just to the fact that this unrelated discussion was being needlessly prolongued in the wrong place and in the wrong time. Apologize if you took any offense from that.

Anyways, I am making a bigger post regarding the tiering of the Planiturthians right now, after reading some new excerpts, so just a heads up.
 
It might be best to just ignore humanity as a 4th wall breaking thing. Also, is it expressly stated that each and every human can modify this math? Or is it some joined effort between them all?

We may be able to do something if it's not the humans themselves that are tier 0, but instead a collective force that is.

I think another possible option is that we can do keys from 2 different perspectives, like how we did with White Face. One, from the perspective of The Mathiverse where everything is what their current tiers are. Two, where it is unstead having them all as various degrees of fiction, where The Mathiverse as we current have it would be 11-A, and everything else is degrees of infinity down from there. If it goes against our sensibilities too much, we can not give humanity a tier 0 key, as they only exist from their own perspective

edit: nvm i missed Ultima's comment. If they aren't reality-fiction difference then it doesn't matter
 
So, firstly, it should be noted that the smallest possible unit of the universe of Planithurth is something called a "Philosophon", which is described as an abstract quality that only philosophers can ever hope to address. That is, their universe is literally built and shaped by philosophy:

Planiturthian mathematicians would like to think that their universe is built from mathematics, but that's only natural, after all. Planiturthian physicists would like to think that the Planiturthian universe is built from physics. Planiturthian biologists would like to think that the Planiturthian universe is built from biology. Planiturthian philosophers would like to think that the Planiturthian universe is built from philosophy. (Let me tell you a secret: it is. The fundamental unit of the Planiturthian universe is the philosophon, a unit of logic so tiny that only a philosopher could hope to split it.)
The Mathiverse also isn't merely a virtual space that's inside of their minds, either. It is a fully-fledged meta-reality, born out of their desires for a grand unified theory of all physics built under solid mathematical foundation, which is, by the way, even directly linked to the act of desiring a monotheistic true god defining all of reality (which probably allows the Mathiverse to count as a character of sorts, putting it in the same field as the Overvoid or The Amaranth):


'So it's all in their minds?' I asked the Space Hopper.
'No,' he said. 'Their minds are all in It. Their brains are built from Planiturthian-universe matter, obeying Planiturthian-universe rules. Their minds are processes that go on inside their brains - and many of those processes are internal representations of that external universe. So, not surprisingly, Planiturthian minds construct - by the collective use of IMAGER - a Mathiverse that mimics the effects of those external rules pretty well. They don't always get the rules right -for all they know there may not be any ultimate rules at all - but they keep tinkering, and slowly the correspondence between Mathiversian rules and observed reality becomes extraordinarily accurate.'

'So that's all there is to it, then?' I asked him.

'Not quite,' he said. 'There's something very mysterious going on, too. Why is it that Planiturthians live in a universe where IMAGER works, anyway?'

'Why?' I asked him, after a long silence.

'Beats me,' he said.
'Well, the Planiturthians had all sorts of rational reasons, but when it comes down to it, I think it was because Planiturthian science had grown from a monotheistic religion. Most of their science was the product of a culture whose religious beliefs attributed their entire universe to a single act of creation by a single deity. Whether or not the scientists themselves were religious, this cultural trait led them to seek a single explanation for everything. The search for One Final Theory is psychologically very close to the search for One True God - though the Planiturthian scientists wouldn't have agreed with that view at all.
As mentioned previously, the Planithurthians created the Mathiverse out of a mental process which the Space Hopper described as an "IMAGER", which is an acronym for "Imagination, Mathematics, Analogy, Generalization, Extrapolation and Recursio", a pretty obvious reference to how humans themselves formulate / discover mathematical truths in the real world. The key difference here being that, instead of IMAGER being just thinking, it's an actual, in-universe mechanism applicable only to the People of Planithurth.

So, basically, while the Planithurthians aren't physically Tier 0 or transcendent over the Mathiverse in any way (quite the contrary, in fact), their collective consciousness expressed through the phenomenon of IMAGER is what allowed them to birth it as an expression of their formulations in an abstract meta-space.

Hence, the closest thing to a compromise me and others reached after some off-site discussion was to rate them at "10-B. 0 with IMAGER", or whatever tier we decide the Mathiverse to be.

Although, I believe Kep in particular has some issues with this rating, which I can see myself agreeing with, so.
 
My issue with the rating is that this sounded pretty similar to your average mythology verse, where humans create deities by telling stories about them. None of this is sounding like an inherent "ability" anymore than "people made it up so it exists now" is an ability for humans in the aforementioned verses, IMO.
 
Kepekley23 said:
My issue with the rating is that this sounded pretty similar to your average mythology verse, where humans create deities by telling stories about them. None of this is sounding like an inherent "ability" anymore than "people made it up so it exists now" is an ability for humans in the aforementioned verses, IMO.
Click to expand...
My issue with that issue is that, that sort of thing is actually an ability in some verses. SCP-001 (S Andrew Swann's Proposal) is 1-A because some horror writers wrote some stories, and because of the nature of the cosmology those stories were made real on a lower order reality.

What is the meaningful difference between these three cases?
 
I think the question is, why would imagining something, even if it is tier 0, a feat for scaling someone's physical properties.

This seems like it's a feat of intelligence or resistance to madness hax by being able to imagine and control a mental realm.

Manipulating a mental realm shouldn't be considered any clause for your physical feats, considering the fact that these feats are done in a realm which is designed to be manipulated by thought, hence a mental realm.

This is like scaling someone to the entire ocean by the ocean filling its container (acting like water should)
 
@Agnaa

I agree, although I guess what would make The mathivervse (and to an extent Warhammer 40k, but that's not from meta elements) different from I/O and SCP is that the latter's meta constructions from fiction is based mainly on "lower layers" of their reality. That being said, it's a generalization, because there are examples in both verses where the collective mind or at least some of them effect beings beyond their layer. Functionally I do agree
 
Sera EX said:
I completely agree with Udlmaster. One of our many problems which has resulted in our unreliability is scaling everything to physical AP and/or not differentiating between actual AP and hax for higher tiered characters (we got it down for lower tiers pretty much).
Click to expand...
Yeah, honestly, it's been an unspoken issue I've had for a while that reality warping is treated as AP almost as default, instead of the hax it probably should be
 
@Udl @Sera Because the Planiturthians stand above (having created) a tier 0 hierarchy, and so if another character were to be placed in Flatland alongside other 10-Bs like A Sphere, Planiturthians would be tier 0 relative to them.

If another character were to be in the Flatland verse, they would need to reach tier 0 levels of physicality to break out of that mental scape and be physically on par with them.

But it seems like we were already kinda going to disregard the idea of it scaling to physical stats, since Ultima's suggestion was to give them 10-B normally, tier 0 with IMAGER, which wouldn't scale to SS/LS/Dura.
 
So, from what I understand, Flatterland wasn't written by the guy who wrote Flatland, it's just something written when the latter got into public domain?
 
InfiniteSped said:
So, from what I understand, Flatterland wasn't written by the guy who wrote Flatland, it's just something written when the latter got into public domain?
Click to expand...
Yeah.
 
InfiniteSped said:
Shouldn't it be separated from the Flatland verse, then? I don't think we put stuff based of public domain works as the same verse, it should be its own thing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I mentioned that before and I strongly agree.

One slightly weird thing about that, though, is that we use pictures from the 2007 Flatland film, that was similarly made by someone completely separate once it reached public domain.
 
I also think that Flatterland should be separate from Flatland.
 
Agnaa said:
@Udl @Sera Because the Planiturthians stand above (having created) a tier 0 hierarchy, and so if another character were to be placed in Flatland alongside other 10-Bs like A Sphere, Planiturthians would be tier 0 relative to them.
If another character were to be in the Flatland verse, they would need to reach tier 0 levels of physicality to break out of that mental scape and be physically on par with them.

But it seems like we were already kinda going to disregard the idea of it scaling to physical stats, since Ultima's suggestion was to give them 10-B normally, tier 0 with IMAGER, which wouldn't scale to SS/LS/Dura.
Click to expand...
However, and correct me if I am wrong, but, the realm they created was a mental realm, right? It existed in some form of realm of the mind designed to bend to thought itself.

You could argue the realm is that large, but a mental realm takes up no "space" as it is mental, not physical. It can still exist, it just wouldn't take up space.

Also, for this mental realm, was it created by these beings or was it a side-effect of thought. For example, let's say in real life there is a mental realm which contained all human thoughts. That realm existing doesn't make us Universal, Multiversal, Outerversal etc.

To break out of the realm wouldn't require Outerversal power either. A thought becoming real is merely a reality fiction difference, the entire realm doesn't need to be taken into account, in fact, it could just be the common fictional thing of "stepping sideways from reality".
 
@Udlmaster Treating it like a mental realm only in relation to the Planiturthians is having it both ways. There's two possibilities.

  • 1. We treat it as a mental realm, and as such is below reality. Beyond going against our Reality Equalizatio guidelines, this would downgrade every Flatland (Universe) character to being the lowest 11-Cs on the site, as they all sit at the very bottom of a tier 0-sized hierarchy below 10-B.
  • 2. We treat it as a mental realm, but such that the 3-D part of that realm is 3-D in our system. This keeps the tiers for Flatland characters, but would have Planiturthians at high reaches of tier 1/0.
And again, there are many, many verses where thoughts, stories, etc. are tiered as if they were constructs of size when characters create and control huge constructs of them.
 
@Matthew

Well, I wouldn't express myself like that, but the point is correct.

Anyway, what should we do here? Should The Mathiverse profile be deleted?
 
Antvasima said:
@Matthew
Well, I wouldn't express myself like that, but the point is correct.

Anyway, what should we do here? Should The Mathiverse profile be deleted?
Click to expand...
I was being blunt to get the overall point across, yes.

Perhaps a cleaner comparison would be to point out the obvious difference between something like Lewis Carrol's original Alice stories, and the Japanese Otome Dating Sim Alice in the Country of Hearts.
 
Much more discussion is needed on whether The Mathiverse would eventually stay. At the very least, it should no longer be linked on the Flatland (Universe) page, and shouldn't link to that on its profile.

EDIT: Even beyond the discussion of The Mathiverse's tier, discussion is required on whether Planiturthians should scale, since that would decide whether it stays or goes.
 
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