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Tier 0 Mathiverse
- Thread starter Andytrenom
- Start date
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I would like to know how you'd "better define" tier 0, this definition was chosen with pretty good reasons.
It makes it purely about power, unlike the old definition which also included status in the verse, to make it more in-line with the other tiers. And it gives it a baseline that lets in some characters while still actually being a notable milestone.
It makes it purely about power, unlike the old definition which also included status in the verse, to make it more in-line with the other tiers. And it gives it a baseline that lets in some characters while still actually being a notable milestone.
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I'm trying not to derail any further. God knows I didn't want to comment here because frankly, I hate how this new system is being applied (not the actual system itself) with a passion. It's why I said "we all know where this is going", and here we are.
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Then let's not please. A storm is brewing, and I do not desire to help create it.
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I can agree with Sera that, at least with some stuff I've seen recently, the application of the new system seems to be falling a bit flat, on certain levels. I remember the days when everyone got frustrated because the application of "big number" to compare certain 1-As running on entirely different systems led nowhere and was an exercise in futility and frustration. If the solution now has become "apply big number to everything beyond 1-A, as well", I'm not sure how that's meant to help, or makes anything beyond 1-A even serve a purpose. This makes things more difficult for tiers that are often heavily steeped in some sort of philosophical concepts.
In regards to the actual subject of the thread, while I have not read Flatterland, the quotes do seem to be a quite clear cut analogy for our relation to mathematics, which simultaneously is something that exists in our minds, but governs our entire universe. Because this is so meta, I'm not sure how one would tier the relation of "the Planeturthians thought up the Mathiverse, but it is also so real that it governs and controls all laws of their universe".
In regards to the actual subject of the thread, while I have not read Flatterland, the quotes do seem to be a quite clear cut analogy for our relation to mathematics, which simultaneously is something that exists in our minds, but governs our entire universe. Because this is so meta, I'm not sure how one would tier the relation of "the Planeturthians thought up the Mathiverse, but it is also so real that it governs and controls all laws of their universe".
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I think the system is fine in theory. We should just be more specific. Like maybe we could say that Tier Low 1-A is for [aleph 1] dimensional characters, Tier 1-A is for [aleph 2] dimensional characters, Tier High 1-A is for [aleph 3] dimensional characters, and Tier 0 is for [aleph 4] dimensional characters and up. Characters stated to be beyond all of this would be the highest form of Tier 0 (e.g. a being considered to be superior to the Mathiverse, Abrahamic God since God is stated to be greater than anything the human brain can begin to fathom, etc.).
However, I do understand why we we should NOT take every author's word for it (like if a random dude says "beyond logic") in spite of a hardcore Death of the Author approach saying we shouldn't care if an author doesnt understand the implications of such a strong claim. Just remember that if we're going pure Death of the Author then the default position would be to put random characters stated to be "above math" and rank them as superior to the mathiverse. However, the author being knowledgeable in the field would negate this problem. The author being knowledgeable is NOT a reason as to why we should trust their word, it is rather an exception to a reason why we shouldn't (said reason being that most authors dont understand the implications of the statement "beyond time and space").
However, I do understand why we we should NOT take every author's word for it (like if a random dude says "beyond logic") in spite of a hardcore Death of the Author approach saying we shouldn't care if an author doesnt understand the implications of such a strong claim. Just remember that if we're going pure Death of the Author then the default position would be to put random characters stated to be "above math" and rank them as superior to the mathiverse. However, the author being knowledgeable in the field would negate this problem. The author being knowledgeable is NOT a reason as to why we should trust their word, it is rather an exception to a reason why we shouldn't (said reason being that most authors dont understand the implications of the statement "beyond time and space").
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But all of this assumes that 4 dimensional beings are uncountably infinitely greater than 3 dimensional ones, and 5 dimensional beings to 4 dimensional ones, and so on. However, it is a widely accepted fact that the cardinality of the set of all points in a unit cube is exactly the same as the cardinality of the set of all points in a unit square. This is proven by cantors set because every single 3 dimensional coordinate can be matched with exactly one real number and the same applies to the unit square. Because of this, they both have the same cardinality as the that of the set of all real numbers, that is, aleph 1. So adding dimensions does not increase cardinality. Idk though, maybe this has been mentioned before.
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@Sera Azathoth I'm pretty sure I'd disagree, but fair enough that now's not the time for that argument.
@Jaakubb The tiers already have specific descriptions, but you got High 1-A and above pretty badly wrong. 1-A is for [aleph 2] dimensional characters, 1-A+ is for [aleph omega] dimensional characters, High 1-A is for the first inaccessible cardinal (I forgot what it's known as), and 0 is for the cardinal inaccessible to inaccessible cardinals (I think it's ord or mahlo?).
There is no "highest form of tier 0", in the same way that there's no lowest form of 11-C. There's no endpoint for them.
Why are you talking about the cardinality of all points in an object when talking about its size? If you do things that way then everything 1-D and above, no matter what, has the exact same size, which is completely unreasonable for a tiering system.
You're essentially measuring how much larger than a 0-D object a cube and a square are, and a cube and a square are both uncountably infinitely larger than a point, so you get that result.
However, if you tried to measure how many squares fit in a cube or a square, you'd find that one square fits in one square, but uncountably infinite squares fit in a cube. This is where "4 dimensional beings are uncountably infinitely greater than 3 dimensional ones" comes from.
This has been mentioned before tons of times. It's been part of "dimensional tiering debunked!!!!" posts for years.
@Jaakubb The tiers already have specific descriptions, but you got High 1-A and above pretty badly wrong. 1-A is for [aleph 2] dimensional characters, 1-A+ is for [aleph omega] dimensional characters, High 1-A is for the first inaccessible cardinal (I forgot what it's known as), and 0 is for the cardinal inaccessible to inaccessible cardinals (I think it's ord or mahlo?).
There is no "highest form of tier 0", in the same way that there's no lowest form of 11-C. There's no endpoint for them.
Why are you talking about the cardinality of all points in an object when talking about its size? If you do things that way then everything 1-D and above, no matter what, has the exact same size, which is completely unreasonable for a tiering system.
You're essentially measuring how much larger than a 0-D object a cube and a square are, and a cube and a square are both uncountably infinitely larger than a point, so you get that result.
However, if you tried to measure how many squares fit in a cube or a square, you'd find that one square fits in one square, but uncountably infinite squares fit in a cube. This is where "4 dimensional beings are uncountably infinitely greater than 3 dimensional ones" comes from.
This has been mentioned before tons of times. It's been part of "dimensional tiering debunked!!!!" posts for years.
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Has this thread really got derailed this badly? Oh well, I had no idea it would turn into another shitfest of people disagreeing with something and then dropping the topic only for someone else to pick it up and continue it at full force. You are all free to object certain things about the system, but take it somewhere else.
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Aleph 2 is inaccessible to aleph 1 though. Same with 3 to 2 and 4 to 3. You cant just multiply aleph 1 by aleph 1 to get aleph 2. Its inaccessible in the same way aleph naught is inaccessible to Graham's number.
Also, what I mean by "high end of Tier 0" is the highest form of Tier 0 we can measure. For example, there is no point in measuring anything smaller than Planck length because it's literally impossible. E.g. Abrahamic God because we cant use man made measurements at all to describe his power. Forget the "being superior to mathiverse", that doesnt make any sense. You cant be beyond logic. That's like in suggsverse where they say their characters are beyond omnipotent. You might as well say that your character can Ih399zKsI&#;">*Hme97198>*#,#*.
Yeah I guess you're right about the 4d thing.
Also, what I mean by "high end of Tier 0" is the highest form of Tier 0 we can measure. For example, there is no point in measuring anything smaller than Planck length because it's literally impossible. E.g. Abrahamic God because we cant use man made measurements at all to describe his power. Forget the "being superior to mathiverse", that doesnt make any sense. You cant be beyond logic. That's like in suggsverse where they say their characters are beyond omnipotent. You might as well say that your character can Ih399zKsI&#;">*Hme97198>*#,#*.
Yeah I guess you're right about the 4d thing.
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@Ultima
I would expect this to be exactly the type of thread in which such concerns arise due to it relating specifically to the tiering of the subject of the thread, as well as another character from the same verse. As long as it doesn't consume the entire topic or devolve into "entire tiering system bad", I don't think it's strictly problematic to address possible concerns. In this case though, after finding (at least part of) the book online, I think the Planiturthian issue is definitely more in regards to the nature of the stuff in the book than the system itself.
I checked through and saw mention of how the Planiturthians, being us, are 3-D, and experience the world as such, and that the Mathiverse is meant to mimic the rules of our/their reality, which gets closer to observed reality the more tinkering that's done. I don't think this creates some kind of weird Tier 0 chain, because the rules that govern the Mathiverse seem to be the ones that govern their reality, as well. Yeah, it's weird and meta, but they still seem to be...people.
This is to say nothing of the tier of the Mathiverse, itself. I have no qualms with whatever's decided there. I'd read the whole book to more thoroughly help with that, but that's something I just don't have the time for, anymore.
Edit: I can obviously grab the specific quote if needed, but it won't let me copy-paste and I really didn't feel like typing it.
I would expect this to be exactly the type of thread in which such concerns arise due to it relating specifically to the tiering of the subject of the thread, as well as another character from the same verse. As long as it doesn't consume the entire topic or devolve into "entire tiering system bad", I don't think it's strictly problematic to address possible concerns. In this case though, after finding (at least part of) the book online, I think the Planiturthian issue is definitely more in regards to the nature of the stuff in the book than the system itself.
I checked through and saw mention of how the Planiturthians, being us, are 3-D, and experience the world as such, and that the Mathiverse is meant to mimic the rules of our/their reality, which gets closer to observed reality the more tinkering that's done. I don't think this creates some kind of weird Tier 0 chain, because the rules that govern the Mathiverse seem to be the ones that govern their reality, as well. Yeah, it's weird and meta, but they still seem to be...people.
This is to say nothing of the tier of the Mathiverse, itself. I have no qualms with whatever's decided there. I'd read the whole book to more thoroughly help with that, but that's something I just don't have the time for, anymore.
Edit: I can obviously grab the specific quote if needed, but it won't let me copy-paste and I really didn't feel like typing it.
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I agree with Sera and Azathoth in this respect.
I would greatly appreciate if the two of you discuss how to improve on the new system in private, and then talk with me about your conclusions. However, I would very much prefer if we keep some sort of ascending hierarchy for 1-A, and tier 0 as well.
I would greatly appreciate if the two of you discuss how to improve on the new system in private, and then talk with me about your conclusions. However, I would very much prefer if we keep some sort of ascending hierarchy for 1-A, and tier 0 as well.
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I also don't approve of making all of 3-D humanity a tier 0 species. It would strongly violate our Reality - Fiction Interaction regulations.
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Well to be fair, they wouldn't be at tier 0 for being humanity, they'd be at tier 0 for seeing a High 1-A/0 structure as a mere mental construct and for having influence over it.Antvasima said:
Even though they are 3-D, I think it fits with the Reality Equalizatio regulations, since the story takes place inside The Mathiverse, with Planiturthians and their effects only being mentioned, and with them being higher beings who can meaningfully affect The Mathiverse.
I think there's something weird/offputting about having them at tier 0 and I'm not sure what it is, but I'm pretty sure it's not a violation of reality - fiction interactions.
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Agreed. I think it is more the idea of a group of 3-D beings, who are supposed to be us, getting placed in Tier 0 due to the fact they can supposedly exert total influence over a reality that contains basically everything ever, even though such a thing seems contradictory to the very ideas presented by the Mathiverse that landed it in this tier, to begin with. Alongside the fact that the Mathiverse is supposed to mimic the rules of observed reality "pretty well", and through further tinkering, "the correspondence between Mathiversian rules and observed reality becomes extraordinarily accurate", this makes it difficult to cut the meta concepts away and leave only the remains for a clear tier. The commentary about the nature of mathematics and the part they play in our world is something that you can't remove from a work that is almost solely about said idea told in a whimsical fashion.Agnaa said:
The Mathiverse's description isn't really the problem, as even if it was a virtual simulation(?), it is supposed to be pretty close/getting closer to what reality actually is, from the quotes near the end of the book (I don't know if something after what I'm referring to contradicts all of this, so someone please correct me if that's the case), and the ideas presented can be given a tier. The problem arises if we now assume a race of 3-D beings has some higher form of control over it.
Maybe it's more accurate to say we're tiering the the reality that the Mathiverse is an approximation of? It's kind of weird setting the imagined Mathiverse as Tier 0, and then regular 3-D people at Tier 0 due to imagining the idea of it, while the physical reality they are a part of and entirely beholden to is what the Mathiverse was a copy of.
This one's kind of a pain, I'll admit.
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It feels really ******* odd to say this, but perhaps they are physically 3D beings, in that their bodies exist in 3 dimensions, but they have tier 0 power. Kinda like a really extreme version of characters with "human" bodies attacking with higher dimensional attack potency, taken to an uncomfortably extreme degree.
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How would we even describe their power? "10-B normally, 0 when creating new mathematical concepts and with patents"? Eugh.Iapitus The Impaler said:
It's not even that they created it all at once, the patent/public domain situation of the Planiturthian world affects it, and new discoveries in mathematics create new areas in The Mathiverse:
| We're getting into very difficult intellectual territory here, Diary Dear, and not just philosophically. This stuff is right out on the frontiers of the Mathiverse, where new concepts are still popping into existence ... and the physics is pretty hairy too. So I'm going to make some notes for you. |
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I mean this clearly doesn't fully violate the reality-fiction interraction. It's still set in a fictional version of our own reality. I feel like we are over thinking this a little bit. I feel like the solution here is to make a profile for the characters that can manipulate the Mathiverse and move the Mathiverse profile into a blog with perhaps a slightly more detailed explanation.
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I don't think it's actually that simple, though.
The characters are fictional versions of us, yes, but they still seem like they're supposed to be humans, just as viewed from an outsiders perspective.
Assuming they actually created and can fundamentally change the Mathiverse, and that this is happening from the perspective of 3-D beings and not some all-powerful gods, does this not seem contradictory to the idea of the Mathiverse's transcendence and everything within it having already existed? If we treat these changes made by the Planiturthians as having always existed, then are they even altering it at all, or just altering their perception of it? This is pretty clearly meant to be human beings pondering the nature of mathematics and the universe, and thus is not as direct as most other cases of tiering.
If the Mathiverse reality is a relatively competent copy of the "real" world, then how do both of them transcend "thought" and "transcendence", while one is a less real copy of the other inhabited by virtual beings?
Even if we just slap a tier 0 on these people and don't think about it, how do we even describe it? As Agnaa said, "10-B normally, 0 when creating new mathematical concepts and with patents"? Because all of this is coming from the way they can affect a world that they and other "real" things don't seem to be entirely part of, as a way of trying to better understand reality. They aren't transcendent gods, or anything. Distinctly human imperfections seem to be brought up multiple times, even just on the pages I'm currently able to look through.
There aren't nearly as many issues with tiering the nature of the Mathiverse in a vacuum as there are trying to determine its more specific nature in comparison to otherwise regular-ass people, and then giving them an absurdly high tier, because of it.
The characters are fictional versions of us, yes, but they still seem like they're supposed to be humans, just as viewed from an outsiders perspective.
Assuming they actually created and can fundamentally change the Mathiverse, and that this is happening from the perspective of 3-D beings and not some all-powerful gods, does this not seem contradictory to the idea of the Mathiverse's transcendence and everything within it having already existed? If we treat these changes made by the Planiturthians as having always existed, then are they even altering it at all, or just altering their perception of it? This is pretty clearly meant to be human beings pondering the nature of mathematics and the universe, and thus is not as direct as most other cases of tiering.
If the Mathiverse reality is a relatively competent copy of the "real" world, then how do both of them transcend "thought" and "transcendence", while one is a less real copy of the other inhabited by virtual beings?
Even if we just slap a tier 0 on these people and don't think about it, how do we even describe it? As Agnaa said, "10-B normally, 0 when creating new mathematical concepts and with patents"? Because all of this is coming from the way they can affect a world that they and other "real" things don't seem to be entirely part of, as a way of trying to better understand reality. They aren't transcendent gods, or anything. Distinctly human imperfections seem to be brought up multiple times, even just on the pages I'm currently able to look through.
There aren't nearly as many issues with tiering the nature of the Mathiverse in a vacuum as there are trying to determine its more specific nature in comparison to otherwise regular-ass people, and then giving them an absurdly high tier, because of it.
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Assuming they actually created and can fundamentally change the Mathiverse, and that this is happening from the perspective of 3-D beings and not some all-powerful gods, does this not seem contradictory to the idea of the Mathiverse's transcendence and everything within it having already existed? If we treat these changes made by the Planiturthians as having always existed, then are they even altering it at all, or just altering their perception of it?
Really really good points here, I think. The statements that make the Planiturthians scale to it seem to directly contradict the statements that give The Mathiverse its extreme scale in the first place.
If the Mathiverse reality is a relatively competent copy of the "real" world, then how do both of them transcend "thought" and "transcendence", while one is a less real copy of the other inhabited by virtual beings?
From the quotes I've seen, thinking of the Mathiverse as a copy of the "real" world (as described in Flatterverse) is missing the mark. It seems like Mathiverse is just all of mathematics, and part of mathematics is the mathematics describing the real world. So this talk about "copies" seems a bit off-base to me.
Really really good points here, I think. The statements that make the Planiturthians scale to it seem to directly contradict the statements that give The Mathiverse its extreme scale in the first place.
If the Mathiverse reality is a relatively competent copy of the "real" world, then how do both of them transcend "thought" and "transcendence", while one is a less real copy of the other inhabited by virtual beings?
From the quotes I've seen, thinking of the Mathiverse as a copy of the "real" world (as described in Flatterverse) is missing the mark. It seems like Mathiverse is just all of mathematics, and part of mathematics is the mathematics describing the real world. So this talk about "copies" seems a bit off-base to me.
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I think that Azathoth makes perfect good sense as usual. Thank you for helping out.
Also, I would obviously still prefer if you stay as a bureaucrat in this wiki if you are still interested in helping out with input on a reasonably regular basis.
Also, I would obviously still prefer if you stay as a bureaucrat in this wiki if you are still interested in helping out with input on a reasonably regular basis.
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Normal humans who can manipulate concepts we would consider Tier 0 sounds like exactly what a mathematician would write as a fictional story. What degree of control over the Mathiverse do the Planiturthians posses? Like is it explicitly stated that the concepts they imagine are reflected in the actual Mathiverse itself?
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Normal mortal 3D people making thought experiments in mathematics is no different from if they make thought experiments in philosophy and metaphysics in the sense that all of it still just exists within their consciousness/imagination. It does not make them have a greater amount of practical power and stature.
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It's stated that it's a mental construct created by them. It's stated that new concepts are still being added to it. And it's stated that patents in the Planiturthian world make some areas difficult to access for beings in it, while areas under public domain in the Planiturthian world are easy to access.
So I don't think "concepts they imagine are reflected there" is explicitly stated, but it's very heavily implied by it being a mental construct created by them, and by new concepts being introduced to it. (Which I'd again like to note, contradicts the earlier statement of everything in mathematics already having been in The Mathiverse forever)
So I don't think "concepts they imagine are reflected there" is explicitly stated, but it's very heavily implied by it being a mental construct created by them, and by new concepts being introduced to it. (Which I'd again like to note, contradicts the earlier statement of everything in mathematics already having been in The Mathiverse forever)
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All of it is still a very straightforward allegory to both fiction and mathematics existing as mental constructs for 10-C to 9-C mortal 3D beings. It would be ridiculous and extremely unreliable to rate all of humanity as Tier 0 entities simply because we can define their scale of power and stature.
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@Agnaa
I would agree that "copy" perhaps isn't the best word. More accurately, it is a mathematical view of our own universe. Elaborating on what I meant, the Space Hopper states that Planiturthians can't experience the Mathiverse directly "because they are real, whereas I am a Virtual Unreality Construct" (I know the "I" was referring to the character he was speaking to, but he immediately says this applies to himself, as well). Instead, they experience it through IMAGER, which is "Imagination, Mathematics, Analogy, Generalization, Extrapolation, and Recursio". This clearly represents humanity pondering mathematics and applying our knowledge of it to gain a better understanding of the physical world, because we don't directly interact with these abstract mathematical concepts and featureless shapes. Perhaps the more accurate way of going about this is saying that we're tiering what the Mathiverse represents, as it is just a mathematical understanding of the totality of existence, but not the idea of the Mathiverse as thought up by Planiturthians, which they distinctly cannot interact with due to being "real", and which is inhabited by "Virtual Unreality Constructs". I don't think it's as simple or strange as "Planiturthians are Tier 0 via thinking, but are otherwise just people".
@Ant
While I do enjoy helping out when I can, I do not think I can regularly commit to bureaucratic responsibilities, at the moment. Honestly getting involved in the few threads I'm currently replying to was probably really, really stupid.
I would agree that "copy" perhaps isn't the best word. More accurately, it is a mathematical view of our own universe. Elaborating on what I meant, the Space Hopper states that Planiturthians can't experience the Mathiverse directly "because they are real, whereas I am a Virtual Unreality Construct" (I know the "I" was referring to the character he was speaking to, but he immediately says this applies to himself, as well). Instead, they experience it through IMAGER, which is "Imagination, Mathematics, Analogy, Generalization, Extrapolation, and Recursio". This clearly represents humanity pondering mathematics and applying our knowledge of it to gain a better understanding of the physical world, because we don't directly interact with these abstract mathematical concepts and featureless shapes. Perhaps the more accurate way of going about this is saying that we're tiering what the Mathiverse represents, as it is just a mathematical understanding of the totality of existence, but not the idea of the Mathiverse as thought up by Planiturthians, which they distinctly cannot interact with due to being "real", and which is inhabited by "Virtual Unreality Constructs". I don't think it's as simple or strange as "Planiturthians are Tier 0 via thinking, but are otherwise just people".
@Ant
While I do enjoy helping out when I can, I do not think I can regularly commit to bureaucratic responsibilities, at the moment. Honestly getting involved in the few threads I'm currently replying to was probably really, really stupid.
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@Azathoth
Well, for what it is worth, I appreciate your help, as you are easily one of the most rational and sensible members of this wiki. I would also really appreciate if you could help Sera in private, as I have similar serious concerns regarding the current tiering system as you both do.
Well, for what it is worth, I appreciate your help, as you are easily one of the most rational and sensible members of this wiki. I would also really appreciate if you could help Sera in private, as I have similar serious concerns regarding the current tiering system as you both do.
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@Ant
I'm not sure if I actually have too many issues with the system itself, but more so improper application for certain things in a few cases, which can happen to even the most thoroughly examined systems, as the fault isn't internal. Even if I did, the site will always do things its own way, just as other sites will do things their own way. I'm not sure I'm the guy to go about changing anything, even if I had huge problems with everything, due to my astonishing lack of a consistent presence. (Edit: Reading back on this paragraph, it comes off as unintentionally passive-aggressive to me, but the intent behind it is genuine.)
But I will try to help out generally when I have the time, or if something is deemed of the utmost importance.
I'm not sure if I actually have too many issues with the system itself, but more so improper application for certain things in a few cases, which can happen to even the most thoroughly examined systems, as the fault isn't internal. Even if I did, the site will always do things its own way, just as other sites will do things their own way. I'm not sure I'm the guy to go about changing anything, even if I had huge problems with everything, due to my astonishing lack of a consistent presence. (Edit: Reading back on this paragraph, it comes off as unintentionally passive-aggressive to me, but the intent behind it is genuine.)
But I will try to help out generally when I have the time, or if something is deemed of the utmost importance.
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I think another thing that really complicates things is the Reality Equalizatio guidelines. The sort of thing that allows SCP's Swann's Proposal (which is a bunch of 10-B horror writers) and SCP's Overvoid Lurk (which is a webpage, as well as the living embodiment of a story) be 1-A since they reside on a higher realm than where most of the story takes place, and they regularly interact with and can modify the story as if it was fiction.
Planiturthians seem to be a really blurred line with this. I'd like to say that the only difference is that they're viewing mathematics which has a story in it, rather than just viewing plain old stories, it still feels like there's a difference and I can't put my finger on it, but the issue can't just be "3-D mortal humans can't be in high tiers" since they're no different in that regard.
EDIT: But in general I really want input from other people on this. I was going to ask DT since he's familiar with the original Flatland at least, but it seems like he's on hiatus for now.
Planiturthians seem to be a really blurred line with this. I'd like to say that the only difference is that they're viewing mathematics which has a story in it, rather than just viewing plain old stories, it still feels like there's a difference and I can't put my finger on it, but the issue can't just be "3-D mortal humans can't be in high tiers" since they're no different in that regard.
EDIT: But in general I really want input from other people on this. I was going to ask DT since he's familiar with the original Flatland at least, but it seems like he's on hiatus for now.
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@Azathoth
Thank you and no problem. I do consider helping Sera examine our current system as being of utmost importance though. I am not a fan of that it almost completely disregards transcendental metaphysics and philosophy in favour of strictly using mathematics. I would much prefer a mostly seamless combination of the two.
Thank you and no problem. I do consider helping Sera examine our current system as being of utmost importance though. I am not a fan of that it almost completely disregards transcendental metaphysics and philosophy in favour of strictly using mathematics. I would much prefer a mostly seamless combination of the two.
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Could it be an extreme case of "belief makes it real", like some American Gods on steroids?
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If I had cash and time to spare right now, I'd buy the ebook, because boy would having all the pages help me with some of this.
On another note, it's past 3:30 in the morning in my timezone, so I'm probably going to bounce.
On another note, it's past 3:30 in the morning in my timezone, so I'm probably going to bounce.
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Reading through some of the excerpts, I'd say that I wouldn't really give any rating to the Planiturthians, at this rate. Vicky and the Space Hopper are "not real" compared to them in the sense that they and the Mathiverse are just abstract models and representations of mathematical constructs that don't really physically exist. Vicky even states that, while both Planithurth and Spaceland are 3-dimensional, they are differentiated by the fact that the latter is just an abstraction meant to convey the former, which is of course common sense: Geometric shapes don't exist in the physical world, they are just models more akin to cardboard cut-outs than anything.
Planithurth doesn't even exist beyond the Mathiverse either; it is stated to be "of it, but not in it", in the sense that the physical world we inhabit isn't contained alongside a bunch of other literal mathematical structures as if they were physically real (Tegmark would probably disagree, but I digress), but is still nonetheless fundamentally defined and tracked by mathematics in the first place, which the story apparently treats as being real to some extent, just abstracted in some virtual metareality.
So, to me, the relationship between the Planiturthians and the Mathiverse isn't really one between reality and fiction. It moreso looks like the Mathiverse is supposed to be kind of like the Matrix but in steroids and acid simultaneously, if anything.
Planithurth doesn't even exist beyond the Mathiverse either; it is stated to be "of it, but not in it", in the sense that the physical world we inhabit isn't contained alongside a bunch of other literal mathematical structures as if they were physically real (Tegmark would probably disagree, but I digress), but is still nonetheless fundamentally defined and tracked by mathematics in the first place, which the story apparently treats as being real to some extent, just abstracted in some virtual metareality.
So, to me, the relationship between the Planiturthians and the Mathiverse isn't really one between reality and fiction. It moreso looks like the Mathiverse is supposed to be kind of like the Matrix but in steroids and acid simultaneously, if anything.
- 6,104
- 5,102
Well, perhaps next time people should think twice before asking me to comment on a thread specifically about the last three tiers of the system which I'm not fond of how they are currently being applied. I've said this on multiple threads prior to this so it's not like I haven't warned you guys: Call on Sera, expect her to disagree with certainty, possibly resulting in derail. Especially when there's other people that have a lot to say on the thread as well, it's practically guaranteed to be derailed at this point.
I mean, damn I actually can consider the Mathiverse to be Tier 0. I'm not close minded. I have no problems with Tier 0s being overcame, having limitations (for lack of a better word), etc. If The Overvoid gets "defeated" in a DC comic, yeah it'd still be 0. It's also why I'm serious when I say Demonbane Azathoth should still be 0 (or High 1-A...whichever). I just remember when we all agreed after much discussion to make Tier 0s boundless beings but because this is fictio, they are still vulnerable to whatever PIS the author pulls out of the aether, and thus are subject to defeat, not being perfectly displayed as omniscient or omnipresent, etc. yet that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered the all powerful end of their verses. That's what after a long conversation where DarkLK, Matt, Azzy, Ant, and myself managed to settle on what 0 should be (long prior to the three/four new system threads btw).
This was before the math got involved, which makes me have mixed feelings about the new system, because now, rather than math being a principle behind the system, it's the absolute law or gospel of the system. Objectivity isn't that important. I know math and even theology tells us there's essentially infinite levels to Tier 0 and beyond, and it just goes forever and ever. But just because there can technically be a verse with a Tier 0 hierarchy extending infinitely doesn't mean we should include such aspects in our system. How many notable verses actually use such hierarchies? I can't even think of one. This is also why allowing anything with a story regardless of how obscure and ambiguous it is was a shaky idea. Be it a verse hardly anyone knows, or a mostly untranslated verse (unless it has a translator willing to assist in CRTs). It's no different than how we ignore certain elements of physics for the betterment of the system. Some ideas are better left in obscurity.
Again, for the purpose of this thread, I'm fine with a Tier 0 Mathiverse because I trust you, but I strongly disagree with a 0 being trivialized to such a degree that for example it's seen as fiction. Since as explained above and again by Ultima, that doesn't apply to the Mathiverse per se, you can put me in the "agree/support" category. I just wanted to make that clear because I'm starting to get offended when people throw shade at me as if I freaking asked to be here despite saying on other 0 and High 1-A threads that I don't agree with the tiers anymore.
My critique of the system and its applications (and the site as a whole) is coming soon, just be patient and please, kindly don't summon me to speak on a subject I clearly will disagree with (and have plenty to say while at it). It derails the threads and prevents progress from being achieved. For the record, I was planning on writing this sooner but I ended up falling asleep with my daughters so I just woke up. Sorry for re-derailing the thread in that case.
I mean, damn I actually can consider the Mathiverse to be Tier 0. I'm not close minded. I have no problems with Tier 0s being overcame, having limitations (for lack of a better word), etc. If The Overvoid gets "defeated" in a DC comic, yeah it'd still be 0. It's also why I'm serious when I say Demonbane Azathoth should still be 0 (or High 1-A...whichever). I just remember when we all agreed after much discussion to make Tier 0s boundless beings but because this is fictio, they are still vulnerable to whatever PIS the author pulls out of the aether, and thus are subject to defeat, not being perfectly displayed as omniscient or omnipresent, etc. yet that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered the all powerful end of their verses. That's what after a long conversation where DarkLK, Matt, Azzy, Ant, and myself managed to settle on what 0 should be (long prior to the three/four new system threads btw).
This was before the math got involved, which makes me have mixed feelings about the new system, because now, rather than math being a principle behind the system, it's the absolute law or gospel of the system. Objectivity isn't that important. I know math and even theology tells us there's essentially infinite levels to Tier 0 and beyond, and it just goes forever and ever. But just because there can technically be a verse with a Tier 0 hierarchy extending infinitely doesn't mean we should include such aspects in our system. How many notable verses actually use such hierarchies? I can't even think of one. This is also why allowing anything with a story regardless of how obscure and ambiguous it is was a shaky idea. Be it a verse hardly anyone knows, or a mostly untranslated verse (unless it has a translator willing to assist in CRTs). It's no different than how we ignore certain elements of physics for the betterment of the system. Some ideas are better left in obscurity.
Again, for the purpose of this thread, I'm fine with a Tier 0 Mathiverse because I trust you, but I strongly disagree with a 0 being trivialized to such a degree that for example it's seen as fiction. Since as explained above and again by Ultima, that doesn't apply to the Mathiverse per se, you can put me in the "agree/support" category. I just wanted to make that clear because I'm starting to get offended when people throw shade at me as if I freaking asked to be here despite saying on other 0 and High 1-A threads that I don't agree with the tiers anymore.
My critique of the system and its applications (and the site as a whole) is coming soon, just be patient and please, kindly don't summon me to speak on a subject I clearly will disagree with (and have plenty to say while at it). It derails the threads and prevents progress from being achieved. For the record, I was planning on writing this sooner but I ended up falling asleep with my daughters so I just woke up. Sorry for re-derailing the thread in that case.
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