Tier 0 Mathiverse

[LordWhis]

Isn't the whole point of tier 1a that it can't be conceptualised by mathematics ?

 

[Andytrenom]

No

 

[Antvasima]

And, well, like I said on Discord, that thing's page isn't staying anyways, so at the end this debate is pretty much a pointless formality at this stage, in my view. So you can all do as you wish.

Thank you for trying to be reasonable. So has anybody removed the page yet?

We do allow cosmology explanation pages though, so the Mathiverse might be transfered to that instead, but it depends on what Sera and Agnaa think.

 

[Agnaa]

Descriptions of it should work as part of a cosmology blog. I'm not sure about it as a cosmology page, because the thread establishing guidelines for those said they'd only be included if characters scale to them.

As far as I can tell some characters travel through parts of The Mathiverse, but none scale to its full extent. And allowing pages for multiverses just because characters travel through them seems like a really bad precedent to set.

 

[MYHERO]

Isn't the whole point of tier 1a that it can't be conceptualised by mathematics ?

The whole point of the new tiering system is that 1-A can still be measured by mathematical standards.

 

[Sera_EX]

because the thread establishing guidelines for those said they'd only be included if characters scale to them.

That was the consensus? Because that's messed up. I don't think it should have to be scalable to be included.

The guideline that I remember was: Tier 1 verses get cosmology pages and fantasy verses with unique worlds much different from our own regardless of tier also can have cosmology pages (i.e. verses with 5-A sized Earths). Traditional "infinite timelines/universes" multiverses don't need pages because they are straightforward, but more complex Tier 2 multiverses (such as those with time-space dimensions and realms, which are usually a subject of debate) are also permissible.

That's what I remember at least.

 

[Agnaa]

because the thread establishing guidelines for those said they'd only be included if characters scale to them.

That was the consensus? Because that's messed up. I don't think it should have to be scalable to be included.

The guideline that I remember was: Tier 1 verses get cosmology pages and fantasy verses with unique worlds much different from our own regardless of tier also can have cosmology pages (i.e. verses with 5-A sized Earths). Traditional "infinite timelines/universes" multiverses don't need pages because they are straightforward, but more complex Tier 2 multiverses (such as those with time-space dimensions and realms, which are usually a subject of debate) are also permissible.

That's what I remember at least.

After reading through the whole thread more closely this time, Ant initially said that The Sphere of the Gods can stay as long as people scale to it, which got 7 kudos.

From there it quickly moved from a discussion on location/cosmology profiles to a discussion of cosmology pages. I'm bolding these because the suggestion seemed to be essentially turning explanation blogs into pages, rather than having the cosmology rated in a profile format like The Mathiverse or The Sphere of the Gods.

The criteria you mentioned was brought up agreed with by many people, but I think this profiles/pages distinction is important to make.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ahh, I get it now.

 

[Agnaa]

I've had some quotes shown to me, showing that a civilization described in Flatterverse scales to The Mathiverse and sees it as fiction.

Space Hoppers use the name 'Planiturth' to refer to the world that you, dear reader, inhabit. Planiturth is not the same as what old Albert had called 'Spaceland' - but there is a close connection. Spaceland is an abstraction that captures some of the essence of Planiturthian geometry, but Planiturth is real Planiturth has a history as well as a geography, and its relation to the Mathiverse is complex and convoluted. Even philosophers (a special breed of the creatures that live on Planiturth, generically known as Peoples) do not doubt that Planiturth is intimately associated with the Mathiverse - of it but not in it, so to speak (not that 'in' ... but we've been through that already, sorry). In a sense, the Mathiverse is a creation of the combined mentality of the Intelligences of Planiturth. It is a Planiturthian mental construct. Despite which, it has its own kind of reality - it is so real that every atom of Planiturth's universe dances to its tune. The very rules by which Planiturth's universe runs are drawn from the Mathiverse.

The Planiturthians are unique among the creatures of (but perhaps not in) the Mathiverse in that they are not sure which Space (or Time, or Spacetime, or...) they really belong to. Long ago they thought they inhabited Spaceland, a rigid 3D universe; Time was simply something that passed, a separate ID process. This was the Clockwork Universe of a famous People named Isaacnewton: Absolute and Uniform Space ticking to the beat of an Absolute and Uniform clock, and decorated with Absolute (but definitely not Uniform) Matter. Spaceland is a genuine part of the Mathiverse, but the Planiturthians have now decided - correctly - that they don't actually live in Spaceland at all. They live, perhaps, in Curvyspace. Or is it in Waveworld? Or are they gambolling in the Quantum Fields ('gambling' might be a better word since these fields are made from probabilities). The Planiturthians aren't really sure, and about every ten years they completely change their minds.

This is an extremely literal analogy - Planiturthians are us in the real world, and The Mathiverse is mathematics as humanity knows it.

Even without the author knowledge stuff this would still place the Planiturthians at tier 0, the author knowledge stuff would just put them stupidly far beyond any other character in fiction, and I don't say that lightly.

I'm not really sure what to make of this all right now. I'll sleep on it and read other people's thoughts on it later.

 

[Andytrenom]

Can't wait to see a tier 0 civilisation

 

[Genericstickman]

I cant believe Flatland has both one of the weakest character (even though they stomp verses with no type 1 immortality) and one of the strongest character (or not character) on the wiki

 

[Crzer07]

Flatland ironically is the largest verse in fiction.

 

[Sandman31]

Its funny that there are some parts of Mathiverse that cant be easily visited by The Space Hopper because of intellectual property law lol

"The link between cause and effect. If you want to understand that, we need to visit Minkowski Space. Now, because of the commercial exploitation of Intellectual Property rights .. . look, it's tricky to explain, but basically somebody bought Minkowski Space, along with several other spaces that you really ought to visit. They've been franchised out"

Most of the Mathiverse is in Public Domain

"Unfortunately, it's not. Most parts of the Mathiverse are in the Public Domain, because mathematicians never understand how important their ideas are until long after they've told everyone about them. Anyway, according to metaspatial law, mathematicians aren't allowed to patent mathematics mathematics because it consists of ideas. Anyone else can patent mathematics, as long as they don't admit that that's what it is, but mathematicians can't because - being mathematicians - they know it's mathematics, and are bound by their logical training to say so."

 

[Sera_EX]

Flatland ironically is the largest verse in fiction.

It's not.

 

[Sera_EX]

I've had some quotes shown to me, showing that a civilization described in Flatterverse scales to The Mathiverse and sees it as fiction.

Sounds like something isn't really Tier 0, don't it?

 

[Moritzva]

I've had some quotes shown to me, showing that a civilization described in Flatterverse scales to The Mathiverse and sees it as fiction.
Sounds like something isn't really Tier 0, don't it?

By any chance, what if an entity we established as Tier 0 was seen as fiction to another entity in-verse?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I've had some quotes shown to me, showing that a civilization described in Flatterverse scales to The Mathiverse and sees it as fiction.

Sounds like something isn't really Tier 0, don't it?

Minor correction, but Tier 0s aren't necessarily all-powerful and needn't be so in the context of their verse. They're pretty much like any other character now, so they can be put into hierarchies, be surpassed, trivialized and what have you.

 

[Moritzva]

Pretty much what Ultima said. If a character is described and marked as Tier 0, and then something turns out to be stronger than it, it would be odd to suddenly make it no longer Tier 0.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree with the first bit (no fictional character can truly be all powerful), but strongly disagree with the second. I don't think it's the best place to get into that discussion though.

 

[Moritzva]

Would you like to make a thread on it?

(It seems that Mathiverse is denied via being a location, anyways.)

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I would also suggest keeping this thread open for the time being. Aeyu has been reading through the book and found some stuff that might make the Mathiverse qualify as a character, and she also still believes it to be Tier 0.

 

[Sera_EX]

Would you like to make a thread on it?

Ehhh...nah. He's right in that Tier 0s have limitations (no frictional character can truly displayed as limitless, as even a basic fan would eventually find a minute thing that's technically a limitation). However, I think being trivialized to the point that its compared to a higher being as "fiction" is too much for a Tier 0 and is much more in line with 1-As.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sera makes sense.

 

[Sandman31]

Its not really as simple as a reality-fiction difference. The relationship between Planiturth and the Mathiverse is more complex than that. Though Mathiverse is a construct (A "Virtual Unreal Constract") created by the people in Planiturth its not really comparable to a reality fiction difference as show by this excerpt from the novel


"You know that the Mathiverse and the Planiturthian universe are different, yet strangely intertwined. The Mathiverse is a collective mental creation of Planiturthian intelligences - yet the structure and behaviour of the Planiturthian universe is somehow governed by the Mathiverse. So have these bizarre creatures invented their own universe out of pure mentality?" "What WAS going on, then? I asked him. He pointed out that Planiturthians don't possess a VUE. They can't experience the Mathiverse directly, like I'm doing. But that, he said, is because they are real whereas I am a Virtual Unreality Construct. I got annoyed, but he says he's one too."

 

[Kepekley23]

From what I hear, the Mathiverse is supposed to be sentient, so "location profile" isn't the issue.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Sera

I mean, the new tiering system kinda demystified Tier 0. Unless I missed something big, you can no longer be disqualified from tier 0 or High 1-A due to a certain number of limitations. Hell, the Masadaverse has most of their high end cast at High 1-A. It certainly feels wrong, but there isnt anything inherent that stops there being a whole race of tier 0, at least in theory

 

[Sera_EX]

I said nothing about "number of limitations". I never said a 0 can't be overcame and I never said a 0 can only have "minor limitations" (whatever that means).

I specified a limitation so severe it disqualifies for the tier. It's no different than how we prevent certain 3-As from becoming Low 2-Cs due to limitations. How is something "boundless/beyond hierarchical scale" yet is trivialized by hierarchical scale? It's the exact thing that downgraded certain 0s to 1-As you know?

 

[Moritzva]

I see no reason why something that would be Tier 0 would suddenly be 1-A if something became stronger than it. That seems incredibly odd - that character's power didn't actually change one bit by the introduction of another power that, say, sees it 'as fiction'. If you were to remove that higher entity from the picture, why would it suddenly go back to Tier 0? It seems quite arbitrary to bounce a defined power up and down when, fundamentally, their strength hadn't really changed.

...such seems off topic in relation to Mathiverse, though, unless someone could connect it back.

 

[MYHERO]

When it says beyond hierarchical scale, they are referring to just the specific hierarchy they have shown to transcend in their verse. This doesn't include all hierarchies in general, or even all the ones in their verse either. It's just being superior to a high 1-A system to the same scale that the high 1-A exceeds all others. While I have never seen it in fiction, the idea that a tier 0 transcending the construct of a high 1-A level and even then having other higher levels not transcended is now possible in this new tiering system, as stated, "This tier has no true endpoint, and can be extended unto any higher level, spiraling infinitely upwards." It's suppose to simply be another benchmark when you transcend high 1-As to a ridiculous scale.

Plus I'm pretty sure those tier 0s that has been downgraded are because of the fact that they had nothing to prove that the cosmology can reach to like the inaccessible and above cardinals.

 

[Agnaa]

I said nothing about "number of limitations". I never said a 0 can't be overcame and I never said a 0 can only have "minor limitations" (whatever that means).

I specified a limitation so severe it disqualifies for the tier. It's no different than how we prevent certain 3-As from becoming Low 2-Cs due to limitations. How is something "boundless/beyond hierarchical scale" yet is trivialized by hierarchical scale? It's the exact thing that downgraded certain 0s to 1-As you know?

That doesn't matter under the updates to the tiering system. Tier 0s used to be downgraded to 1-A because of this in the past, but not any more.

Also, tier 0s aren't defined by being beyond all hierarchical scale. They're simply any characters that are beyond High 1-A hierarchies. i.e. they're any characters who see High 1-As as High 1-As see 1-As.

 

[Kepekley23]

> How is something "boundless/beyond hierarchical scale" yet is trivialized by hierarchical scale?

By not being beyond hierarchical scale.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyway, as I said above, the Mathiverse is allegedly referred to as a sentient entity in Flatterland. That would put it in the same category as characters like Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, who is not really a character so much as a location.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, with these revelations, I'd suggest placing The Mathiverse at "At least High 1-A, possibly higher" as that's what the statements without outside author statements seem to show. I'm not 100% sure if the Planiturthians should be rated as the same or as tier 0, since their way of transcending The Mathiverse is very weird and not quite absolute, even though they created it and have some control over it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Boundless isn't beyond hierarchal scale. It's just a level beyond High Outerverse Level to a ludicrous degree, as mentioned by a few. They can be given hierarchies and level above. It's just we haven't encountered a verse (yet but I know we are going to eventually) that has an official Tier 0 Hierarchy. \

 

[Sera_EX]

@Moritzva

I didn't say a tier 0 couldn't have something stronger than it.

@Everyone else

Anyway, given what you all claim, what's the point of High 1-A and 0? This is why I said the system should stop at 1-A. If you want the end of the tier to extend infinitely, stop at 1-A+. High 1-A and especially 0 are completely meaningless tiers now.

Well, whatever. The Mathiverse is 0 despite clearly not being any more impressive than 1-A+s here except "is described more biggerer" - exactly the kind of trite we're known for now. Though, if that's what everyone has come to accept, so be it.

 

[Agnaa]

Every single tier is only impressive by being bigger though? That's the entire point of the tiering system, to mark separate milestones for different levels of bigness.

We have High 1-A and 0 because characters qualify for it, they're significant separations worthy of being made, and because casual visitors seem to enjoy the tier 0 category.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's clearly not more impressive than 1-A+s, just described in more impressive terms? How exactly does that work?

 

[Sera_EX]

I can make up a tier and prove several qualify for it. That doesn't mean it should exist. It's the main counterargument against Tier N/A being a thing.

 

[Agnaa]

I think the existence and usefulness of the tier 0 category for casual visitors is an important part of the reasoning.

 

[Sera_EX]

A Tier 0 is fine, it just needs to be better defined. But I suppose that's a discussion for later and isn't directly tied to the Mathiverse specifically.