Tier 0 Mathiverse

[Sandman31]

-snip-

However, and correct me if I am wrong, but, the realm they created was a mental realm, right? It existed in some form of realm of the mind designed to bend to thought itself.
You could argue the realm is that large, but a mental realm takes up no "space" as it is mental, not physical. It can still exist, it just wouldn't take up space.

-snip-

Mathiverse occupies space. In fact, the Planiturthians occupies Mathiversian space, the only difference is that the Planiturthians are "real" and cant experience and interact with the Mathiverse directly unlike beings from Mathiverse and Space Hopper who are "Virtual Unreality Constructs"

"Of all the realms of the Mathiverse, there is none stranger than Cat Country. It is (until replaced by something else) the space in which all Planiturthians live - the space from which they are built"

To break out of the realm wouldn't require Outerversal power either. A thought becoming real is merely a reality fiction difference, the entire realm doesn't need to be taken into account, in fact, it could just be the common fictional thing of "stepping sideways from reality".

This implies that the difference between the "real" and the "unreal" is just 1 transcendence which is not the case. This realm has its own cosmology, has dimensions that functions just like real spatial dimensions, it has itws own hierarchy.

What youre saying is a hypothetical scenario that contradicts what is shown in the series, the entire realm does need to be taken into account. A Flatlander cant just jump dimensions or straight into metaspace, he needs to ascend the dimensions/spaces required.

I dont really see the problem with Mathiverse being a mental construct of the Planiturthian. Why should the analysis be biased towards the one at the top? entire cosmologies being mental constructs is nothing new here, many high tiered characters here have their entire cosmology as their dream/imagination etc

Even if Mathiverse doesnt occupy space and is only a mental realm in relation Planiturth does it really matter? The entire Cthulhu verse is a dream of Azathoth, and is only a mental construct in relation to him (I know its getting revised) but we rate him at tier 0 because because we know even though the verse is only a dream in relation to him, that dream has its own cosmology that allows Azzy to be that powerful.

 

[Sandman31]

Vertigo has a somewhat similar cosmology. The humans/living beings in Vertigo are the ones who shapes reality through dreams and beliefs. They create stories and then they live in them (if enough people believe in them). This is like what Planiturthians do, except with math and with the difference that in Vertigo, Creation resets, while in Flatterland the Planiturthers just creates a new space in Mathiverse then lives in it.

 

[Antvasima]

So you are against rating the Planiturthians as higher than tier 10 then?

 

[DarkGrath]

Eh, bump?

 

[Threemagi]

We already have a civilization that can create this 'Mathiverse'. They're called Downstreamers, and they're only 1-A .

(Btw, they have a reasoning for baseline 1-A too, their 1-A tier isn't solely based on mathematicsbabble)

I just want to point it out. A relevant thread .

 

[KLOL506]

What even is Mathiverse

 

[Sandman31]

Theyre not exactly the same

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The Downstreamers and the Mathiverse are different cases, though. As far as I know, Manifold just describes an ensemble comprised of all logically-possible universes where mathematics is the fundamental essence of all things, so the Downstreamers could be higher but mostly just lack further context supporting anything of the sort, while the Mathiverse describes far more things and is way more explicit about existing beyond any extensions of the categories contained in it, so it being at minimum High 1-A is sort of a given.

I'm not sure if whether or not it should be Tier 0 has been decided upon, though.

 

[Udlmaster]

I have to ask, why would explaining the specifics of Mathematics bypass our rule on "transcend math and logic doesn't grant a person any tier".

Is this just not the same thing but giving us a grocery list to read on top of "Transcend and contain all math", it seems like a double standard on the mathematics rule, which lends to the other issue where math has gone from being a supporter of our system to the absolute law or gospel of the system.

 

[Agnaa]

I have to ask, why would explaining the specifics of Mathematics bypass our rule on "transcend math and logic doesn't grant a person any tier".

Is this just not the same thing but giving us a grocery list to read on top of "Transcend and contain all math", it seems like a double standard on the mathematics rule, which lends to the other issue where math has gone from being a supporter of our system to the absolute law or gospel of the system.

Because it specifies specific things that are transcended, and those things do have specific limits on their size. "Transcends all mathematics" and "Transcends all mathematics, including the first large cardinal" are different because the latter does actually correspond to a size.

 

[Threemagi]

What if for some reason there is only one Planithur? Would they still be able to affect whole Mathiverse or...

Hmm, Planithurs 'powers' sounds uncontrollable

 

[Livinmeme]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Seems like mostly skepticism about T0.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Livinmeme]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Staff input would be appreciated.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

The Mathiverse profile has been moved to a blog after another CR thread, due to being a location rather than a character or cosmology page.