Thor and Odin scaling to Captain Marvel?

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Before going crazy on me hating better hear me out.​

First i will stablish a thing or 2 about Carol Danvers and her Binary form.​

Spoiler: Better understanding of Binary and Carol

At one point in Ms marvel (2006) issue #21 she fought an alien called Cru
In this same issue we found out Cru and Carol kind of fused
And he stablish how Captain Marvel has dormant abilities she is too afraid to use.
And not going into details Carol was in danger so Cru activated her Binary form without the need for a White hole nor a significant boost of power absorved
Ms.Marvel (2006) #24
She clearly states how Cru opened a "passageway which proves that she can actually use the Binary power anytime she just doesnt have the control to open by herself usually and or likely as Cru stated a power she is too afraid to use.
In this same issue she was fighting the Brood Queen the same that she exploded when she first got her binary powers where she blown the entire planet. In this same issue the Brood Queen is nuked by this explosion she fared quite well considering the size of this explosion the same Queen that was being damaged and hurt by base Carol almost out of energy

Spoiler: Current Captain Marvel

The current Captain Marvel has been getting more powerful and discovering new powers she had never used before I even made a post about it, and one of those feats was she creating a "avatar" of herself, this avatar was in Binary mode which means she can and has used Binary levels of energy in base mode confirming she can indeed use powers in the same level of Binary as her base self, this avatar was very powerful including powers that are not even available to regular Carol like intangibility. This remotes to what i said before about her dormant powers.

Now lets head to the main subject about Thor and Odin​

Now that we know her binary form and her base form dont have a clear difference we can talk about the current situations that Carol is going through.
In her recent comic Captain Marvel (2019) issue #12 she fought Thor sure you might say because of Thor's profile that he was holding back but how much was he holding back? Was he holding back that much that this is meaningless? I think not, like I said before her levels of energy are not normal and she can access even Binary levels of energy even in base form which in this fight shouldnt be a problem considering Captain Marvel had time to prepare for this fight so its logical to assume she absorbed high levels of energy before she went to fight Thor. During this fight Thor hit Carol multiple times and she also hit him back so we can call it to a certain extent a on pair fight in the end Carol knocked Thor out of combat with a powerful blast that even caused pain to Thor, sure Thor holds back but does he hold back his resistance and pain tolerance? Maybe his profile kinda of cover this up so lets keep going.

During the current events of the Avengers (2018) the avengers are fighting against Mephisto and that brought them to 1 000 000 BC where they found each other with the avengers among them you have Odin, Phoenix, Iron fist, Agamotho, Starbrand but they obviosly dont see eye to eye at fist so the 2 formations of the Avengers fight each other.
So Thor and Captain Marvel end up fighting against Starbrand but not any starbrand a hulk size starbrand, not saying he should scale with hulk but Starbrand's power is already considered Galaxy in his profile for scaling of hulk and Thor so this starbrand should also scale to the same Thor and Hulk. During this fight Starbrand even lifts this a good chunk of the world while she wasnt holding back she does this, this proves they are in similar levels enough so that they can fight a threat like Starbrand together without one holding the other back even to the point where Captain Marvel and Thor were both holding one of Starbrands arms. This proves Thor and Captain MArvel need to be on similar speeds strenght and durability to fight an equally powerful opponent like Starbrand.
Later they stopped fighting among themselves and start fighting against the Multiverse Masters of evil in this part Captain Marvel, Odin and Thor fight King killmonger while using the destroyer armour made by the gods that he killed so he is obviosly talking about the actual asgardian destroyer which obviosly scales to Thor and considering he also killed the gods that made that armour well it clearly makes sense that he would scale to Thor, an attack of Captain Marvel with Odin and Thor managed to melt part of the destroyer armour. The Odin used here is very much weaker than his actual prime version he is still young and using Mjolnir but he should scale to at least the same level as the same Thor in this event considering that they launched their mjolnirs and they ended up stalemating in a giant explosion that knocked out everyone there including Thor, Odin, Starbrand and Captain Marvel alike.

This should establish a consistent relation enought to scale Captain Marvel with "normal Thor". Which would scale Captain Marvel to Galaxy level and MFTL+ speed comparable to Thor.

Edit: Multiple other feats that support a 3-C and MFTL+ change were said in the rest of this post so im gonna add them here to make it easier
She fought a non holding back Cosmic Ghost Rider while stating she had enought energy to open a hole through a star
She fought Firelord.
She fought Terrax.
And during a fight with Firelord and Terrax she managed to move multiple lightyears in little time.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

sure you might say because of Thor's profile that he was holding back but how much was he holding back? Was he holding back that much that this is meaningless?

The giant explanation section on Thor's page covers this

This means that not every character (or object) that would seem to scale their statistics to Thor and vice versa would always do so, the context of the showings and the historical consistency of the involved characters' statistics need to be evaluated. In practice for Marvel, this means something a bit more counterintuitive; Thor has hundreds of showings across his career, contending at least somewhat evenly against foes whom he should easily one-shot and speed blitz. Although this makes some sense given to his proven approach for combat, it also includes instances where Thor's life was at stake or people needed to be saved. However, as illogical as this may sound, a much greater number of inconsistencies would arrive with all of the involved characters scaling to Thor at his peak despite their much more abundant evidence to not remotely be of this level. Some attention needs to be given to the in-universe reasons regarding why weaker foes would gain an upper hand against or content with Thor, even if they come off as illogical excuses, as they're repeatedly used and normalized between different writers.

As Thor consistently holds back when facing non-divine opponents, or when on Earth, please avoid scaling other characters to his tiering unless they meet the criteria and it is consistent for the characters in question.

In short, Thor has a reason to hold back that ideally makes his showings against weaker characters more logical. However, all of these occasions do not always make perfect sense, and care needs to be put to not abuse such cases as more meaningful than what they are in order for consistency and accuracy to be maintained.

sure Thor holds back but does he hold back his resistance and pain tolerance?

Most characters can't usually hold back durability. But then we have Kratos getting killed by GoW Thor when both were holding back, and later shook off a direct strike from a bloodlusted Thor when Kratos held back way less.

MC Thor isn't really any different. When holding back, he can get harmed by things that he would easily tank or beat the shit out of when not holding back. That, and it's a case of comicbook inconsistency.

This should establish a consistent relation enought to scale Captain Marvel with "normal Thor". Which would scale Captain Marvel to Galaxy level and MFTL+ speed comparable to Thor.

By this point, Thor obtained the Odinforce, which means he is 2-A. So if you're trying to scale CM to current Thor, you're basically trying to advocate for 2-A Captain Marvel, not 3-C

This should establish a consistent relation

NO

We have rules regarding Marvel powerscaling, especially for characters like Thor

 

[Excellence616]

Following

 

[Excellence616]

Following

I disagree

 

[Dalesean027]

Following

I disagree

Man did that with a quickness

 

[Excellence616]

Man did that with a quickness

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The giant explanation section on Thor's page covers this

Covers that he holds back never covered how much he does it.

Most characters can't usually hold back durability. But then we have Kratos getting killed by GoW Thor when both were holding back, and later shook off a direct strike from a bloodlusted Thor when Kratos held back way less.

MC Thor isn't really any different. When holding back, he can get harmed by things that he would easily tank or beat the shit out of when not holding back

Lol Kratos has no room here its Marvel not GoW. You know i think it was you that in another post argued about me using a example from another fictional universe so im going to tell you the same thing.

By this point, Thor obtained the Odinforce, which means he is 2-A. So if you're trying to scale CM to current Thor, you're basically trying to advocate for 2-A Captain Marvel, not 3-C

NO

Im not scaling Thor odinforce with Captain Marvel I was scaling his enemies like Starbrand and king killmonger to evaluate Thor's strenght at this time he couldnt be holding back less than Galaxy level because his enemies are galaxy level.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Lol Kratos has no room here its Marvel not GoW. You know i think it was you that in another post argued about me using a example from another fictional universe so im going to tell you the same thing.

I don't remember such a thing. And I'm just using Kratos as an example in which a character can somehow hold back their durability. Heck, even ignoring him, Thor has that idea that he can limit his durability as stated under his Notes section

• Note that, much like his strength and durability, Thor can limit his speed if he wants to, which should be considered before scaling other characters to him. This, of course, includes the speed of his hammer being thrown.

Covers that he holds back never covered how much he does it.

Read this:

As Thor consistently holds back when facing non-divine opponents, or when on Earth, please avoid scaling other characters to his tiering unless they meet the criteria and it is consistent for the characters in question.

In short, Thor has a reason to hold back that ideally makes his showings against weaker characters more logical. However, all of these occasions do not always make perfect sense, and care needs to be put to not abuse such cases as more meaningful than what they are in order for consistency and accuracy to be maintained.

Marvel Comics powerscaling is so ****** up that there is an entire page about the rules of it and an additional section on the verse page for powerscaling 3-C/2-C characters like Thor

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel Comics scaling is always all over the place and currently just seems to boil down to "because the writer for that story likes one character more than the other", and current Odinforce Thor also somehow had serious problems when fighting the Hulk, so our current chain-scaling system of listing all the more powerful regular Marvel Comics characters as 2-C, rather than using their own feats, seems very counter-productive, and likely needs a major revision.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm using Kratos as an example in which a character can somehow hold back their durability. Heck, even ignoring Kratos, Thor has that idea that he can limit his durability under his Notes section


Read this:

Marvel Comics powerscaling is so ****** up that there is entire page about the rules of it and an additional section on the verse page for powerscaling 3-C/2-C characters like Thor

I mentioned before and will say it again the page never states how much he holds back.
And in this post i clearly show how Thor and Captain Marvel are scaling of Starbrand which holds no note about holding back, she is scaling on King killmonger which clearly doesnt hold back, she is even scaling to Odin again no key about holding back. I showed a consistent proof that Thor couldnt be holding back less than Galaxy with proves. So unless you have any actual argument about my scaling stop mentioning Thor's specific note about him holding back

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX @Excel616 @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, 3-C scaling seems fine, but no way is 2-A scaling acceptable

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Well, Marvel Comics scaling is always all over the place and currently just seems to boil down to "because the writer for that story likes one character more than the other", and current Odinforce Thor also somehow had serious problems when fighting the Hulk, so our current chain-scaling system of listing all the more powerful regular Marvel Comics characters as 2-C, rather than using their own feats, seems very counter-productive, and likely needs a major revision.

Captain Marvel was once considered comparable to Thor in speed because of "flying at similar speeds" This was taken back because of the all thing "Thor holds back"
In this post i made a consistent scaling im not even counting all on thor i actually scaled Thor's level with other characters

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

our current chain-scaling system of listing all the more powerful regular Marvel Comics characters as 2-C, rather than using their own feats, seems very counter-productive, and likely needs a major revision

The characters that have blatant 2-C feats can keep their ratings. The ones that don't definitely should be revised

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX @Excel616 @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

There are multiple ongoing CRTs right? This one should probably be closed until the others have finished

 

[Deagonx]

I don't find this persuasive for the reasons that others have elaborated upon.

 

[Antvasima]

The characters that have blatant 2-C feats can keep their ratings. The ones that don't definitely should be revised

Strongly agreed.

There are multiple ongoing CRTs right? This one should probably be closed until the others have finished

Well, they are largely unrelated to each other in terms of topics, so I am uncertain.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The characters that have blatant 2-C feats can keep their ratings. The ones that don't definitely should be revised

There are multiple ongoing CRTs right? This one should probably be closed until the others have finished

None of which talk about this particular case and again is not about 2-C feats

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Well, they are largely unrelated to each other in terms of topics, so I am uncertain.

None of which talk about this particular case and again is not about 2-C feats

Well nothing there says anything about them being related or not

But eh, I don't really care either way. If you think it should be kept open, then sure. Just that having too many CRTs ongoing at the same time makes it difficult to keep up

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm reading the Caprain Marvel Omnibus on the marvel comics app (its like 30 or 40 bucks) so I'm wanting to eventually catch up on her stories starting from here. Rn I can't help out here though

(May buy the mar-vell omnibus as well)

 

[Antvasima]

Well nothing there says anything about them being related or not

But eh, I don't really care either way. If you think it should be kept open, then sure. Just that having too many CRTs ongoing at the same time makes it difficult to keep up

Yes, that is true. Perhaps we should close this thread then.

I would greatly appreciate if some knowledgeable members are willing to help Eficiente fix our Marvel Comics scaling problems though, as, again, chain-scaling without concrete feats is almost always a complete mess for these characters, due to hundreds of very irresponsible writers who are engaged in extreme favoritism.

 

[Deagonx]

Eficiente fix our Marvel Comics scaling problems though, as, again, chain-scaling without concrete feats is almost always a complete mess for these characters, due to hundreds of very irresponsible writers who are engaged in extreme favoritism.

I'll PM him about it

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Well nothing there says anything about them being related or not

But eh, I don't really care either way. If you think it should be kept open, then sure. Just that having too many CRTs ongoing at the same time makes it difficult to keep up

One of those is talking about a not yet accepted calc that one should be closed rather than this one

 

[Antvasima]

I'll PM him about it

Thank you. It is very appreciated.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Need to go to sleep soon since it's past 2am. But if more stuff to support 3-C Captain Marvel can be gathered, then I won't be against it. Just that with only what's in the OP right now, I'm against it

Perhaps we should close this thread then.

I agree with this, though

One of those is talking about a not yet accepted calc that one should be closed rather than this one

There's still other much bigger Marvel Comics CRTs out there than this one

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.

 

[Antvasima]

Our current chain-scaling system of listing all the more powerful regular Marvel Comics characters as 2-C, rather than using their own feats, seems very counter-productive, and likely needs a major revision.

Those who contact Eficiente, please keep this strongly in mind by the way.

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to reopen this thread:

https://vsbattles.com/members/antvasima.17/#profile-post-comment-79404

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I was asked to reopen this thread:

https://vsbattles.com/members/antvasima.17/#profile-post-comment-79404

Thanks

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Need to go to sleep soon since it's past 2am. But if more stuff to support 3-C Captain Marvel can be gathered, then I won't be against it. Just that with only what's in the OP right now, I'm against it
There's still other much bigger Marvel Comics CRTs out there than this one

Now that it was re opened i would like to hear what are your doubts

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Like I said, I'd rather get more showings of her consistently and reliably fighting OTHER 3-C characters (without Thor Odinson scaling being the sole reason for them being at such a tier) before making a decision

Spoiler: One Example

Captain Marvel fought and took hits from Sindr, who:

• Fought, harmed and restrained War Thor, who in turn fought against Jane Foster Thor
  • While fighting War Thor, she claimed to have burned stars from the sky
• Took a hit from Jane Foster Thor
• Easily overpowered Ares (his page is deleted, but he does at the very least have 5-B scaling)

Even if we do decide to upgrade her to 3-C, this may affect the scaling for other 5-B characters and every one of them may end up being 3-C too. So if we do upgrade Carol, that needs to be taken into account

I won't be against an upgrade if there's enough solid and reliable evidence without also f**king up powerscaling

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Like I said, I'd rather get more showings of her consistently and reliably fighting OTHER 3-C characters (without Thor Odinson scaling being the sole reason for their tiers) before making a decision

Spoiler: Example

Captain Marvel fought and took hits from Sindr, who:

• Fought, harmed and restrained War Thor, who in turn fought against Jane Foster Thor
  • While fighting War Thor, she claimed to have burned stars from the sky
• Took a hit from Jane Foster Thor
• Easily overpowered Ares (his page is deleted, but he does at the very least have 5-B scaling)

I actually been revisiting her Avengers comic run and we have more feats she fought cosmic ghost rider, Firelord and Terrax all of which have the galaxy rating. I will bring the scans if you need it.

Even if we do decide to upgrade her to 3-C, this may affect the scaling for other 5-B characters and every one of them will end up being 3-C. So if we do upgrade Carol, that needs to be taken into account

Actually no, in the first part of my thread i talk about how Carol Danvers recently started to become stronger than she was even been before so it would only scales for the characters she fights from the start of this avengers and Captain Marvel solo run onwards doesnt scale to her previous fights. Also keep in mind that this only scale if she is actually full of energy so it only scales if they fight a full on energy Carol.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Actually no, in the first part of my thread i talk about how Carol Danvers recently started to become stronger than she was even been before so it would only scales for the characters she fights from the start of this avengers and Captain Marvel solo run onwards doesnt scale to her previous fights. Also keep in mind that this only scale if she is actually full of energy so it only scales if they fight a full on energy Carol.

So would 3-C be like a new key for Carol or sth like that?

she fought cosmic ghost rider

CGR easily blocked her attack, though that statement to "melt a hole in a star" could help

Firelord

Could work

Terrax

Eh, maybe? I skimmed through the issues pretty fast because of how absolute dogshit Jason Aaron's current works are, so maybe I missed it

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Daam you i was now getting all the scans.

So would 3-C be like a new key for Carol or sth like that?

I think it could work. But that would scale to her Binary key too since she keeps the binary as a mode

CGR easily blocked her attack and Carol was even told to avoid fighting him, though that statement to "melt a hole in a star" could help

Cosmic Ghost Rider also previously stated he wouldnt hold back any longer after fighting She hulk and Thor and even a weird attack called Gamma lightning using both She hulk and thor's power

Could work

Eh, maybe? I skimmed through the issues pretty fast, so maybe I missed it

She managed to hurt him so i think it should count they kept fighting off panel and we had another panel later where they are still fighting after Terrax said to kill them all so no holding back.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Cosmic Ghost Rider also previously stated he wouldnt hold back any longer after fighting She hulk and Thor and even a weird attack called Gamma lightning using both She hulk and thor's power

True. But the point is that CGR has zero difficulty in blocking Carol's attack and was just casually talking about... stuff

we had another panel later where they are still fighting

I see it now. Though staff input is necessary for any of this to get accepted

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

True. But the point is that CGR has zero difficulty in blocking Carol's attack and was just casually talking about... stuff

I see it now. Though staff input is necessary for any of this to get accepted

By the way in the issue 29# we see that Captain Marvel is lightyears away from Starbrand and then Captain america takes the ship and Carol says she would catch up after Terrax some time later she shows up in the same place Starbrand his this is a proof of MFTL+ speed travel?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

By the way in the issue 29# we see that Captain Marvel is lightyears away from Starbrand and then Captain america takes the ship and Carol says she would catch up after Terrax some time later she shows up in the same place Starbrand his this is a proof of MFTL+ speed travel?

They seemed a lot closer than lightyears when she said she'll catch up. The lightyears statement was several pages ago. But to have gotten that near means they would still need to travel that distance while fighting, so I guess so.

Firelord is Massively FTL+ anyway

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

They seemed a lot closer than lightyears when she said she'll catch up.

Well they said it was a few lightyears away so i guess thats probably symbolic. Or the planet they were was really big

The lightyears statement was several pages ago. But to have gotten that near means they would still need to travel that distance while fighting, so I guess so

Ok thanks.
By the way i dont know how to tag staff members or anyone so... Can you help me or should i ask Antivasima?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

By the way i dont know how to tag staff members or anyone so... Can you help me or should i ask Antivasima?

Antvasima already tagged them earlier (normal members aren't allowed to). But you try going to their message walls and asking for their input while linking the CRT

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Antvasima already tagged them earlier (normal members aren't allowed to). But you try going to their message walls and asking for their input while linking the CRT

Well he linked and then this thread was closed so they probably didnt paied it any attention

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure given I do not know much about Carol Danvers, but Thor and Hulk are typically portrayed as being far superior to their peers when fighting at absolute seriousness so we should try to be strict when scaling them to other Avengers or mutants.