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Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I woke up today and chose violence. It's about time we finally had this conversation already.
Hello everyone!
I hope you're having a good day, 'cause it's about to get a whole lot betteror worse if you're lame 
All jokes aside, this is a topic that I've been promising to tackle for quite a while now. We've had a few more pressing things to deal with first, but it's finally time to tackle the controversial Bijū scaling topic. We've let this topic get postponed for such a long time that it reached mythic proportions of hype. I knew that after years of controversy, it had to be me who brings this one home for us. But to do that, I'll need ya'll's help and cooperation. I'll need ya'll to read the following notes VERY CAREFULLY.
Very Crucial Notes:
1) This thread has but one goal. This goal is to propose that certain characters are Bijū level. This thread will only tackle those with direct Bijū-related scaling, statements, feats, and/or lore. This means that this thread will NOT go into a lot of power-scaling, and will not tackle exactly who scales to this characters.
2) Why am I not going to tackle all characters who will eventually become "Bijū level"? It's very simple. Our calcs are currently in a bit of a transitional phase. We're going through a lot of feats getting calced, re-calced, evaluated, re-evaluated, etc. This means that we don't even know what the Bijū will scale to for sure, yet. This is why I'm going to keep this thread purely focused on getting some scaling accepted only.
3) Let's be honest, assuming this is accepted, the next thread will be VERY straightforward and simple. It will just focus on good old fashioned power-scaling, deciding what the Bijū will scale to physically, and writing up justifications to apply on the actual profiles. Simply put, this thread will lay the foundation for everything that comes after.
4) It is very crucial that you guys remain focused, polite, on-topic, and provide scans, references, and evidence for every argument you make. If we want to get anywhere with this, and not have this devolve into a pointless mess like past Bijū related threads, we will have to be responsible and mature. Arguments from incredulity and disbelief will also not be accepted here, at all.
5) It is extremely discouraged to discuss other characters or power-scaling that is unrelated to the characters in the proposal.
6) The proposal only covers characters who are NOT accepted as Bijū level currently, and whom I believe should be considered as such. This means that I will not waste our collective time by covering characters that are already accepted as Bijū level, like Sage Revived Madara and Kurama Mode Naruto. I only included the 3rd Raikage as overall support for his son. And I included Gamabunta because he's technically not accepted as Bijū right now, but his profile was never updated for whatever reason.
7) Finally, I would like to urge you all to look at these arguments for their own merits and without preconceived biases. If you believe that certain other characters should not be scaling to some of the characters in the proposal, then try to refrain from voicing those concerns in this thread. It's pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, and should be left for the more power-scaling focused thread. Simply put, just look at these proposals for what they are and evaluate them based on their own correctness; not based on what you believe the power-scaling should look like overall.
I have to say that failure to abide by these notes will leave me no choice but to turn this into a Staff-Only thread.
I was already considering making it Staff-Only off the bat, but I decided against it because so many of you were excited for this thread, and I didn't wanna take it away from ya'll. I'm choosing to trust you, guys, so please don't make me regret it. Not to sound mean, but I will NOT risk this thread devolving into chaos and getting nowhere.
Thank you all for understanding. With all that being said, let's finally jump into it!!!
Note: We're assuming that Kakuzu survived Matatabi's strike thanks to the Iron Spear technique. This simply makes the most sense, helps us avoid any potential scaling issues, and is the overall safest assumption
And that's all she wrote for this one! Let's discuss!
Hello everyone!
I hope you're having a good day, 'cause it's about to get a whole lot better
All jokes aside, this is a topic that I've been promising to tackle for quite a while now. We've had a few more pressing things to deal with first, but it's finally time to tackle the controversial Bijū scaling topic. We've let this topic get postponed for such a long time that it reached mythic proportions of hype. I knew that after years of controversy, it had to be me who brings this one home for us. But to do that, I'll need ya'll's help and cooperation. I'll need ya'll to read the following notes VERY CAREFULLY.
Very Crucial Notes:
1) This thread has but one goal. This goal is to propose that certain characters are Bijū level. This thread will only tackle those with direct Bijū-related scaling, statements, feats, and/or lore. This means that this thread will NOT go into a lot of power-scaling, and will not tackle exactly who scales to this characters.
2) Why am I not going to tackle all characters who will eventually become "Bijū level"? It's very simple. Our calcs are currently in a bit of a transitional phase. We're going through a lot of feats getting calced, re-calced, evaluated, re-evaluated, etc. This means that we don't even know what the Bijū will scale to for sure, yet. This is why I'm going to keep this thread purely focused on getting some scaling accepted only.
3) Let's be honest, assuming this is accepted, the next thread will be VERY straightforward and simple. It will just focus on good old fashioned power-scaling, deciding what the Bijū will scale to physically, and writing up justifications to apply on the actual profiles. Simply put, this thread will lay the foundation for everything that comes after.
4) It is very crucial that you guys remain focused, polite, on-topic, and provide scans, references, and evidence for every argument you make. If we want to get anywhere with this, and not have this devolve into a pointless mess like past Bijū related threads, we will have to be responsible and mature. Arguments from incredulity and disbelief will also not be accepted here, at all.
5) It is extremely discouraged to discuss other characters or power-scaling that is unrelated to the characters in the proposal.
6) The proposal only covers characters who are NOT accepted as Bijū level currently, and whom I believe should be considered as such. This means that I will not waste our collective time by covering characters that are already accepted as Bijū level, like Sage Revived Madara and Kurama Mode Naruto. I only included the 3rd Raikage as overall support for his son. And I included Gamabunta because he's technically not accepted as Bijū right now, but his profile was never updated for whatever reason.
7) Finally, I would like to urge you all to look at these arguments for their own merits and without preconceived biases. If you believe that certain other characters should not be scaling to some of the characters in the proposal, then try to refrain from voicing those concerns in this thread. It's pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, and should be left for the more power-scaling focused thread. Simply put, just look at these proposals for what they are and evaluate them based on their own correctness; not based on what you believe the power-scaling should look like overall.
I have to say that failure to abide by these notes will leave me no choice but to turn this into a Staff-Only thread.
I was already considering making it Staff-Only off the bat, but I decided against it because so many of you were excited for this thread, and I didn't wanna take it away from ya'll. I'm choosing to trust you, guys, so please don't make me regret it. Not to sound mean, but I will NOT risk this thread devolving into chaos and getting nowhere.
Thank you all for understanding. With all that being said, let's finally jump into it!!!
The Raikage(s)
General Raikage Stuff:
The Raikage, or "A", is the strongest Shinobi in the village. [1]3rd Raikage:
The 3rd Raikage is rather straightforward. His lore is full of support for him being Bijuu level, or more specifically, Gyūki level. The 3rd Raikage has a reputation for being a the only Shinobi in history to fight a Bijuu unarmored and unarmed. [2] His Databook entry[3] offers further support for this by citing his ability to fight Gyūki with his bare hands, and sever its tails. We even hear it from Gyūki's own mouth[4] when he sings his praises to Naruto, and tells him of one of their battles where they both fought until they collapsed from exhaustion. Interesting things to note are the Raikage chopping all of Gyūki's Tails at once and Gyūki heavily implying he used Bijū bombs against the 3rd.4th Raikage:
Oh boy, where to begin? Alright, so most people agree with the 3rd Raikage being Bijū level, but for whatever reason the 4th is where a lot of people draw the line. This is pretty strange IMO, because the 4th Raikage's Bijū level scaling is just as explicit as the 3rd's as I'll be showcasing below.The Evidence
- The most straightforward piece of evidence is A just straight up harming Gyūki. During one of Gyūki's past rampages, A (4th) was able to chop off his horn, drop him to the ground, and make him wince in pain.[5] Very straightforward feat.
- The 4th Raikage is confirmed to have the highest battle power in his village[6]. This statement has absolutely no caveats, so I feel confident in including Killer B, and as a result Gyūki, in the list of people he's considered above. This is very consistent with the other statement affirming that the Raikage is meant to be the strongest in the village, and with the fact that a much younger A had already shown to be capable of contending with Gyūki. It also makes sense in general, as the duty of protecting the village from a rampaging Gyūki generally falls upon the Raikage.
- Upon entering his V2 Lightning Armor, Karin states that the Raikage's chakra is "at Bijū level"[7]. Now this is obviously in comparison to Gyūki, who's the only Bijū Karin ever encountered to our knowledge. And before ya'll start hitting me with the good old "chakra amount/volume/yadayadayada =/= AP", this is A's chakra level in Raiton Chakra Mode. This is a form that uses chakra to directly amp A's stats. So yes, in this case Chakra amount is definitely translated into AP. And honestly, with all the previous supporting points, I don't think anyone can tell me with a straight face that A being Bijū level isn't the clearest implication for this statement.
Addressing the Counterevidence
- "The Raikage cutting Gyūki's horns is just piercing/cutting damage shenanigans at work again!"
- Honestly, this argument is laughable. Cutting and piercing attacks are still a form of AP. It's not like having a sharp stick ensures that you can damage anyone; it's not durability negation. Sure, fiction can be weird and inconsistent when it comes to sharp attacks, but that should be the exception, not the rule, when dealing with these superhuman characters. The wiki mostly operates on this principle regardless, and treats sword users (for example) as having normal AP. So, quite frankly, I don't even see why the Raikage has to deal with this level of scrutiny and doubt when it comes to such a clear cut feat. Piercing damage or not, he damaged Gyūki. He has AP on that level, it's that simple. Unless we want to re-examine all feats performed by characters using sharp/cutting objects, this is how it is. Piercing and cutting definitely offers an edge in most cases, but it's still very dependent on the strength of the person wielding the weapon and their thrusting/slashing power. An academy student holding a kunai isn't going to cut Gyūki's horn or tails off.
- Additionally, it's not like piercing or cutting damage is a guaranteed free hit in Naruto to begin with. Here are examples of piercing/cutting attacks being partially or completely negated.
- Here's the 3rd Raikage taking the Rasenshuriken with minor damage, which is essentially the epitome of piercing/cutting attacks in the verse due to its countless cellular sized blades attacking its target simultaneously. (Naruto Chapter 554)
- Here's KN4 Naruto taking Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade with no damage. (Naruto Chapter 296)
- Here's Obito blocking Suigetsu's sword swing with his bare hands. (Naruto Chapter 404)
- Here's the Raikage no-selling Sasuke's Chidori blade. And no, his Raiton Armor wouldn't be the sole reason for him tanking it here because Sasuke's own Raiton would pretty much match and nullify its advantage. (Naruto Chapter 462)
- Here's Sasuke's Susano'o no-selling Danzo's Kunai. (Naruto Chapter 477)
- Here's KCM Nard blocking a bunch of swords. (Naruto Chapter 559)
- Here's Madara's Susano'o blocking A's chop. (Naruto Chapter 563)
- Here's an already injured Madara taking a point-blank Rasenshuriken. (Naruto Chapter 673)
- Here's Momoshiki no-selling Sasuke's attempt to decapitate him. (Boruto Chapter 7)
- Now, my purpose here isn't to convince you that piercing damage is NEVER effective or that it's not a factor in Naruto, because it is. Like most series out there, characters get hurt by piercing or cutting attacks, so bringing forth examples of people getting damaged by swords or Kunai does absolutely nothing here. So please don't waste our collective time by doing that. My goal here is to showcase the fact that piercing damage doesn't guarantee damage against absolutely anyone in Naruto. As such, my only hope is that the series gets treated like any other verse out there, and that are feats are treated for what they are. I don't think that's too much to ask.
- Finally, it's definitely worth mentioning that we actually have a pretty direct comparison between the Raikage's chops and his punches. Here's Lightened V2 Ay's punch vs Madara's Susano'o. For comparison, here's Lightened V2 Ay's chop vs Madara's Susano'o. As you can see, Ay's punch does even more damage to the Susano'o than the chop. It cracks its ribs and sends it flying, while the chop just cracks the outer armor. And, no, this is not because Ay had better footing while throwing the punch, since he was flying and had significant momentum while throwing the chop. This comparison works so well because it is the exact same form of Ay, at around the same general timeframe, and against the same exact opponent. As far as comparisons go, I don't think it gets much better than this. Simply put, the "Ay doesn't scale because piercing damage gg" take falls flat no matter how we look at it. If there's a better argument to disregard all of these feats and statements, I'd love to hear it, but this definitely won't do it for me.
- "Ha! How can the 4th Raikage be Bijuu level if the 3rd Raikage was stated to be the only Shinobi to have fought a Bijuu barehanded? GG fodder!"
- Okay, come on, now. I've heard this argument before from several people, and no offense to them, but it's honestly pretty weak. For starters, A3's reputation for being able to fight a Bijuu was built due to the fact that he's had to fight the rampaging Gyuki several times during his reign. This was because in the decades since Kumogakure came to possess the Hachibi, they have never managed to produce a Jinchuriki capable of successfully controlling and/or cooperating with Gyuki, until Killer B came along. And this is where A4 comes in. Killer B had already cultivated a friendly relationship with Gyuki even before A4 became the Raikage, and this is precisely why A would never have had to fight the rampaging Eight-Tails ever again, unlike his father. So, yeah, simply put, there's no contradiction here. The statement is pretty sus anyway, because we literally see A4 fighting Gyuki alongside his dad, but whatever.
- "B-B-But if the Fourth Raikage scales, then everyone will end up becoming Bijuu level!!"
- I mean, honestly, this might be the worst argument of them all. For starters, the sentiment is wrong, because not that many people scale to A, and those that do are pretty much all High Kage level. Secondly, it's a classic argument from incredulity. We NEVER disregard such clear-cut scaling, feats, and/or statements because it may scale to others. Like, what??? If other characters end up scaling to A for valid reasons, then that's how it's going to be. We don't deny direct scaling because we don't like it. If there's actual, legitimate issues with someone scaling to A (or anyone else for that matter), then that scaling will be scrapped; otherwise, it's valid. Also, this idea that Bijuu are some untouchable gods who scale to absolutely nobody is absolute VSBW-driven headcanon that we let fester over the years until it became widely accepted as a fact on the site for whatever reason. The fact of the matter is that certain characters do scale to Bijuu, both narratively and through feats and statements. A happens to fulfill both the narrative and feats-based criteria. So yeah, let's just analyze these feats and statements for what they are.
Conclusion
Yeah, man, these guys are Bijuu level. I see direct feats, direct statements, and direct narrative implications. If ALL OF THIS isn't enough to warrant scaling, then I genuinely don't know what does and I might as well quit power-scaling lmao.
Gamabunta:
Here[8][9] is, more or less, the entire Gamabunta vs Shukaku battle. As you all can see, Gamabunta was capable of physically matching Shukaku at several points during this fight, and he was also capable of matching Shukaku's Ninjutsu with his own. Here's a more detailed analysis:- The fight starts with these two beasts charging towards each other, and Bunta slicing off Shukaku's arm with great difficulty. [8]
- Gaara then goes to sleep, and it's noted that while he's awake, Shukaku's strength is suppressed. [8] It's clearly not an insane degree of suppression though, because Bunta still manages to contend with Shukaku after Gaara falls asleep. So his previous feats against Shukaku should still be considered IMO. Although, they are less impressive than what comes next, anyway, so it probably doesn't matter.
- Shukaku then fires his Air Bullets at Bunta, which he dodges. Shukaku fires some more Air Bullets, which Bunta matches with his Liquid Bullets. Bunta misses one Air Bullet, though, and takes it head-on. He's hurt by this attack, clearly, but it's really not severe or fight ending damage by any means. His main issue isn't the power of the attack, it's his inability to take many more of Shukaku's attacks, which is purely a stamina or endurance issue rather than his durability not being high enough.[8]
- Shukaku (with Naruto's help) then transforms into a giant fox and grabs ahold of Shukaku, physically restraining him and causing him to groan in pain. He then continues to hold Shukaku back physically and wrestles him. [9] It should be noted that Bunta was continuously getting tired throughout this fight, as summoned creatures generally don't seem to have high stamina or be able to hold their summoning for very long. So this explains why he was getting somewhat overpowered towards the end.
Addressing certain concerns
- "If Gamabunta scales, a lot of other characters would, too."
- Much like the case with the Raikage, I just don't see how this is a valid debunk for Bunta scaling to Shukaku. Like, if other people scale for valid reasons, then they scale. We have an illogical tendency to protect "Bijuu level" as this exalted tier that only very, very few non-god tiers should reach, but again, that's all complete headcanon. If the scaling is valid, then it's valid.
- "Bunta only fought a weakened Shukaku"
- I've heard this argument SO MANY times, it's ridiculous. It also happens to be very incorrect. Shukaku was only suppressed during the very start of the fight. After Gaara fell asleep, which accounts for the majority of the battle, the suppression was no longer in effect. Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, it's not like Shukaku started to massively outclass Bunta after Gaara fell asleep, so it's not like he was heavily suppressed to begin with.
- "Shukaku didn't use Bijuu bombs during this fight!"
- This is another one I see pop up very often, and to be completely honest, I fail to see its relevance. Bunta scales to Shukaku physically, and also scales to his Ninjutsu. A Bijuu's usage of Bijuu bombs is not a prerequisite for characters to scale to them. Once we settle on what the Bijuu will scale to physically, Bunta will simply scale to that.
Deidara:
This one's rather straightforward. Deidara uses a single clay bomb and knocks the Three-Tails unconscious[10][11]. The 3rd Databook confirms it was a single clay bomb[12], so the argument that Deidara may have used a bunch of bombs is incorrect. Likewise, the argument that Tobi somehow contributed to its defeat is also unfounded, as the DB doesn't make mention of it, and it's nothing but a comedic relief gag, anyway. As for which "C" level this bomb is, it's kind of unknown. It's definitely not C3, C4, or C0 for very obvious reasons. It being C1 would also be a bit strange as they have been stated to have their power toned down to the maximum, and are used mainly for sneak attacks and the like. C2 also seems unlikely since Deidara didn't have the Dragon out when he used the Fish bomb. We might just be forced to treat the Fish bomb as its own thing, unless someone has any better suggestions. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the proposal itself, and can be discussed later I suppose.Addressing certain concerns
- "Deidara says that the Three-Tails wasn't able to use its full power because he lacked a Jinchuriki, right? So Deidara shouldn't scale to the Three-Tails with his clay bomb!"
- This whole issue is actually born out of an in-verse misconception. The idea that the Bijuu can't control or use their powers because they are not intelligent or too unstable is blatantly false. It's just something people assumed, until it became a widely accepted "fact" in the Naruto world. The truth of the matter is that Bijuu are highly intelligent, aware, and have emotions. We've seen this time and time again during the War Arc. In fact, a big portion of that arc was dedicated to Naruto learning the Bijuu's names and coming to understand the long history of Bijuu abuse at the hands of humans. They were captured, imprisoned, and forced into continuous labor as weapons of war. The Bijuu "wreaking havoc" on their villages was nothing more than them attempting to escape their imprisonment. The fact of the matter is that the only use a Jinchuriki actually has is containing Bijuu and more easily controlling them[12], in order to ultimately use them as weapons. They are not weaker without Jinchuriki, they are just harder to control and contain.
- "Isobu was off-guard when Deidara's bomb knocked him out."
- Not gonna lie, I'm not seeing this one. Isobu was chasing after an enemy and primed for attack. Additionally, he's got an exoskeleton that covers most of his body. I see no reason for us to assume that his durability was reduced in this instance, at all.
Rasa:
Simply put, Rasa has been repeatedly stated to have subdued Shukaku[13][14][15] during his past rampages using his Gold Dust. Now, I understand the temptation to write this off as exclusively higher Lifting Strength; however, the repeated usage of the word "subdue" has me believing otherwise. Merely weighing and slowing down Shukaku's sand would not actually subdue him. It would offer a big advantage of course, but Rasa still has to defeat the slowed down beast first and foremost. Additionally, both the manga and DB imply that Rasa clashed with Shukaku's sand, in a similar manner to what he did against Gaara during the War Arc, which would require him matching the opposing sand's KE and power before the weighing down even starts. So overall, I believe Rasa's Gold Dust should be comparable to Shukaku and his sand. It's very well supported narratively IMO. This is something Rasa has had to do on a semi-regular basis, after all.
Kakuzu('s RAW DURABILITY):
This one's a bit controversial, and in truth, I was vehemently against it for a very long time, buuut Kakuzu's durability probably should scale to Matatabi's AP. He survives the full force of one of her swipes with zero damage[16]. We see him after the time-cut, and he's completely unharmed; even his clothes are undamaged. Like, I tried to think of ways around it, but man, there's nothing.......his dura simply scales. Thankfully, this does not really cause any issues, as nobody actually scales to harming Kakuzu, except Kakashi via Raikiri. Frankly, Kakashi's Raikiri has no anti-feats whatsoever, and has quite literally never failed to pierce its target, so this is also not really much of an issue at all. Yeah, pretty simple stuff tbh.Note: We're assuming that Kakuzu survived Matatabi's strike thanks to the Iron Spear technique. This simply makes the most sense, helps us avoid any potential scaling issues, and is the overall safest assumption
Those Who are NOT Bijuu Level:
- "Kisame has been repeatedly referred to as a 'Tail-less Biju' due to his massive chakra reserves, so how come he's not actually Biju level?"
- First of all, he literally cannot be Biju level given the fact that he was physically overpowered and severely injured by V2 Killer B, who's notably not Biju level for obvious reasons. Like, yeah, I feel that getting folded by a character who's literally in a form below Biju Mode automatically disqualifies one from being Biju level.
- Additionally, he's not actually stated to literally have Biju level chakra or power. In his fight against B, it was clearly explained that his title is mainly due to Samehada's ability to absorb an opponent's chakra and transfer it to Kisame in order to replenish his stamina, heal his wounds, and give him more strength while weakening his opponent; effectively giving the illusion that he has nearly unlimited chakra reserves like those of a Biju. Of course, his natural chakra reserves are still massive, being compared to those of a Jinchuriki and directly to those of Naruto on a few occasions, but in both of those cases that is still not quite Biju level, but a peg below at Jinchuriki level chakra reserves.
- An important thing to make note of is that the chakra Samehada absorbs is NOT passively transferred to Kisame, but he has to manually take it for himself from Samehada. The only way to take all the power for himself directly is by fusing with Samehada, which greatly increases his abilities as it gives him direct access to all of the chakra that Samehada stole and stored. This further cements that his 'Biju level' status really is mainly thanks to that blade. Kisame's power output was also described to be Jinchuriki level when he fuses with Samehada, which is consistent with both his performance against V2 Bee, where even Gyuki thought that he'd be able to overpower and kill B which he almost did, and the conclusions I already presented here. So, yeah, no Biju level shenanigans I'm afraid.
- "Akatsuki members have been stated and narratively supported to be capable of taking down Biju, right? So they should scale to them! It's literally their job to take down and capture Biju for god's sake!"
- While I do understand this sentiment, it is a pretty simplistic view of the situation that misses a lot of vital context and nuance. A two man cell of Akatsuki members is, indeed, tasked with and believed to be capable of bringing down a Biju quite comfortably. However, it is also made very clear that a big part of that is actually attributed to their unique abilities, many of which are straight up hax. So that statement isn't exactly equivalent to "All Akatsuki members have physical capabilities that would allow them to take down a Biju". Furthermore, when we look at the scaling critically, we will realize that this simply does not work at all. I have already covered why kisame literally cannot be Biju level physically above, and quite a few members of the Akatsuki (such as sick Itachi, Hidan, and Kakuzu) end up scaling back to Kisame through their various scaling chains and whatnot. So yeah, taking this statement at face value for all Akatsuki members simply does not work, at all. It should also be noted that being "Jinchuriki level" or stronger than a Jinchuriki does not mean you're somehow Biju level. Jinchuriki are not as strong as their Biju, so defeating a Jinchuriki really does nothing for one's Biju level status.
- Now let me be clear, this is not to say that Akatsuki members simply cannot be Biju level under any circumstances, that is not the case. I believe a decent chunk of them have Biju level techniques and scaling, and if I have my way, these changes will be implemented eventually. What I take issue with is the default assumption that all Akatsuki members are simply Biju level physically because of one out of context statement. Those who deserve to be Biju level through their own valid scaling or statements will get there, and rightfully so. It's that simple.
- "Hidan and Kakuzu defeated Matatabi, did they not? So why don't they fully scale to her physically? Both of them are purely physical fighters, after all, and even Hidan's hax requires him to deal damage first."
- All of these statements are true. At the same time, none of them really guarantee scaling for Hidan and Kakuzu for various reasons:
- For starters, most of this fight was off-screen. This makes it pretty difficult to judge without going into too many hypotheticals. What we do know, though, is that Kakuzu attempted to block Matatabi's paw swipe and proceeded to get completely overpowered. Hidan then dodged her fireball, and we get cut off from the battle for a while. When we return, we find Yugito is already defeated by Hidan's Jashin Ritual. Unfortunately, nothing here even remotely suggests that these guys are comparable to Matatabi, with the possible exception of Kakuzu's durability. Nothing we see really supports them scaling; certainly not Kakuzu getting easily overpowered physically, lol.
- Now I hear you, Hidan's ritual does require him to deal physical damage for it to take effect. It's an absolute pre-requisite. The issue with that is that Hidan only needs a drop of blood for it to work. A single drop of blood will suffice. Now, I'm usually not a fan of the surface area and chip damage arguments, but in this case I believe it's absolutely warranted. Hidan's scythe and stakes is absolutely tiny compared to Matatabi. It is literally the equivalent of a mosquito trying to draw blood from a FAR larger animal. Such a small, sharp edge would absolutely draw blood from such a massive body. And again, all he would need is a single drop. To add insult to injury, Matatabi is specifically stated to have soft and pliant muscles, making her even more susceptible to this phenomenon. Like, the argument that he had to have damaged her with his physicals before the ritual kicked in is true, but not nearly as impressive or indicative of Hidan scaling to her as one might initially think.
- Since we know VERY little about how the fight actually went, I thought I'd also offer another potential alternative to what happened. Many of you may not know this, but Yugito is actually a perfect jinchuriki. This means that, much like Naruto and B, her Biju Mode transformation has a time limit. Now, this time limit is obviously unknown, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that two immortals like Hidan and Kakuzu simply outlasted her transformation and then proceeded to defeat Yugito herself later. I understand that this isn't a factual argument, and is entirely hypothetical, but it is just meant to showcase that this battle had a lot of unknown variables, and could've went in many different directions. We simply don't know what happened, so we should just stick with what we do know. And what we do know does very little as far supporting these guys' scaling to Matatabi goes.
- Perhaps the most important reason for why these guys shouldn't scale to Matatabi is the fact that it does not fit the scaling, AT ALL. Simply put, even if everything I've mentioned previously is wrong and these guys have legit Biju level feats, it'd still be considered a problematic outlier. Why? Because these two have pretty explicit, undeniable, scaling to Kakashi, and no matter how we spin it, Immortal Arc Kakashi can't have Biju level physicals. Without getting into too much details, the man has several scaling chains and statements that end up putting him at roughly Kisame level, and I already explained why kisame cannot be Biju level, so yeah. It simply does not work.
- All of these statements are true. At the same time, none of them really guarantee scaling for Hidan and Kakuzu for various reasons:
And that's all she wrote for this one! Let's discuss!
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then yeah I’ll avoid derailing by focusing on which bombs. I’ve got nothing else to add other than all the characters in the OP have direct feats for scaling so checks out 
