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You assumed correct.SirBrownBear said:
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The wit to match a god, Yu Kaito vs Zen'ō
- Thread starter SirBrownBear
- Start date
- Status
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- #43
Well, Zeno's been shown to have the intelect of an average child, and is rather easily manipulated due to how naive and "innocent" he is, so that's a start.
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Can I just say one thing?
While a provoked Zen'o will definitely lead with Erasure, I kind of see where SirBrownBear is coming from and I agree. If not provoked first, Zen'o doesn't lead with erasure and has never done so. Against Zamasu he was bothered by Zamasu becoming the universe. Against Frost, Frost was violating the rules of Zen'os own tournament so of course Zeno is provoked by that. And everywhere else? Literally doing it because its called for, not because its something fight-worthy. A universe loses, they get erased. Its part of his own rules, thats it. We can't make an assumption saying a normal-headed Zen'o (AGAIN, normal headed because bloodlusted Zen'o is fine) in any other instance, fights specifically, would suddenly go for erasing the opponent if not provoked or bothered by them first.
While a provoked Zen'o will definitely lead with Erasure, I kind of see where SirBrownBear is coming from and I agree. If not provoked first, Zen'o doesn't lead with erasure and has never done so. Against Zamasu he was bothered by Zamasu becoming the universe. Against Frost, Frost was violating the rules of Zen'os own tournament so of course Zeno is provoked by that. And everywhere else? Literally doing it because its called for, not because its something fight-worthy. A universe loses, they get erased. Its part of his own rules, thats it. We can't make an assumption saying a normal-headed Zen'o (AGAIN, normal headed because bloodlusted Zen'o is fine) in any other instance, fights specifically, would suddenly go for erasing the opponent if not provoked or bothered by them first.
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No one would lead an attack while unprovoked, that logic applies to everyone.
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An attack of such magnitude? Maybe not, no. But otherwise, attacking period from the very start of the match is very possible, just not immediately with such drastic moves like E.E.
You dont need to be provoked by an opponent to start a match off. Theres a difference between that and getting annoyed to the point where you use some of your best stuff later on in a match.
You dont need to be provoked by an opponent to start a match off. Theres a difference between that and getting annoyed to the point where you use some of your best stuff later on in a match.
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You actually do kinda need to want to fight the opponent in front of you if you're going to lead with a move.
Tell me, would Dialga lead with time Stop or any time related abilities if it met something that it didn't know was even fighting him to begin with? No one leads with anything if they're not even in a fight to begin with.
<Such drastic moves such as existence Erasure
Literally his only move.
Tell me, would Dialga lead with time Stop or any time related abilities if it met something that it didn't know was even fighting him to begin with? No one leads with anything if they're not even in a fight to begin with.
<Such drastic moves such as existence Erasure
Literally his only move.
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"Kaito is very calm and mocking, riling up the emotions of his victims so that they would say the taboo word or attempt to attack him to no effect, defeating them without moving an inch."
In my opinion Kaito would try to mock and provoke Zen'ō, like he did many times, to prove his superiority and show that he's untouchable. You never stated that they know about each others, so I assume that it will definitely happen, and then Zeno will erase him.
As for Zen'ō intelligence, he has proven in the manga that he's not as clueless as people think he is, in the course of inquiring about the development of his universes, and I'm not even sure if Taboo would had any efect on his soul, due to other attacks from GoD's not working on him either.
Anyway from my standpoint, Kaito would try to provoke him, only to be erased second later. My vote goes for Zen-Chan.
In my opinion Kaito would try to mock and provoke Zen'ō, like he did many times, to prove his superiority and show that he's untouchable. You never stated that they know about each others, so I assume that it will definitely happen, and then Zeno will erase him.
As for Zen'ō intelligence, he has proven in the manga that he's not as clueless as people think he is, in the course of inquiring about the development of his universes, and I'm not even sure if Taboo would had any efect on his soul, due to other attacks from GoD's not working on him either.
Anyway from my standpoint, Kaito would try to provoke him, only to be erased second later. My vote goes for Zen-Chan.
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Wanting to fight an opponent isnt the same thing as getting annoyed and pulling out your best move from the start. All opponents in matches here automatically "want" to fight or else battles here would be meaningless. That doesnt mean you'll pull out your best move immediately. Doing it in-character is a thing, but we're specifically talking about someone who never fights and only used E.E. when either provoked first or its called for.Gargoyle One said:
Again, this isnt my point. Dialga would have to know its fightning someone to even be put in a vs match. Plus like I said, In character wise a person using there best stuff from the start isnt an issue if they've done so before. That isnt the case with Zen'o for reasons I already stated.
And only thing? Zen'o has his nuke he used to off Zamasu. Thats very different than him rasing a hand and suddenly erasing starts. If anything Zen'o would be starting off with this instead of hand-rasing.
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Actually, it is, especially since as I've already said multiple times, that's his only shown way of fighting.
My point exactly, except Zeno has literally never done anything else but erase, this, we don't assume he'll do something else in character when he's literally never shown anything else.
I have literally zero idea what you're saying here.
My point exactly, except Zeno has literally never done anything else but erase, this, we don't assume he'll do something else in character when he's literally never shown anything else.
I have literally zero idea what you're saying here.
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Except the issue with that is its not even him fighting, let alone immediately pulling it out for his own reasoning. Zen'o erasing someone has again only ever been done when its called for. Like Frost blatently breaking his rules and a universe losing in the tournament. Zeno doesnt suddenly use erase when in the mood for it.
My point here is that unless an opponent gets him pissed or provokes him first, or he is bloodlusted, Zeno in no other circumstance will suddenly decide to immediately use erasure. Its using a lot of assumption that just because he uses it when his tournament rules call for it means he'll always start off with it in any fight.
And by erasure, im refering to his hand raise. People forget Zeno has 2 different means of attacking. Or 2 different forms of erasure anyway. He either nukes them with conventional attacks or raises his hand to erase them. Even granting him starting off with erasure, what reason is there he'd start off with hand-raising than nuking?
My point here is that unless an opponent gets him pissed or provokes him first, or he is bloodlusted, Zeno in no other circumstance will suddenly decide to immediately use erasure. Its using a lot of assumption that just because he uses it when his tournament rules call for it means he'll always start off with it in any fight.
And by erasure, im refering to his hand raise. People forget Zeno has 2 different means of attacking. Or 2 different forms of erasure anyway. He either nukes them with conventional attacks or raises his hand to erase them. Even granting him starting off with erasure, what reason is there he'd start off with hand-raising than nuking?
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Attacking someone is literally the definition of fighting god, and it doesn't matter what he uses as either one kills.
And as I've said multiple times, that logic applies to anyone
And as I've said multiple times, that logic applies to anyone
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Meshifuari Arimota said:
I hate to nitpick, especially with the first responce that looked into Kaito directly, but that attitude only applied towards a fight where in he was playing the part of an antagonist as part of a test for the protagonists, as well as personally challenging his intelectual rival, so it's unlikely he'll resort to that immeditly, if at all, as seen with his encounter with gamemaster later in the anime. He'll be competitive, for sure, but not so much provokingly rude and insulting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIg2BCSWBHM&t=623s
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Pretty sure the reasoning for all of Zeno's wins are "lol insta-Erasure". That reasoning for has been used for quite some time. If you are against that reasoning, you should probably bring it up here.
"He doesn't just suddenly erase someone with no reasoning. Frost and Zamasu were not erased for no reason...."
This is a fight for a reason. He is obviously not just passing by and waiting for Yu to attack. This fight is reasoning enough. EE is the only attack he has shown so I really don't know why it is being argued if it would be his first attack or not.
"He doesn't just suddenly erase someone with no reasoning. Frost and Zamasu were not erased for no reason...."
This is a fight for a reason. He is obviously not just passing by and waiting for Yu to attack. This fight is reasoning enough. EE is the only attack he has shown so I really don't know why it is being argued if it would be his first attack or not.
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Are you just going to just ignore every vote for Zeno or are you going to actually edit?
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Because again, it is not the only attack he has and I've said this like 3 times.
He either raises his hand and the opponent gets erased or he nukes them like he nuked Zamasu and the timeline he fused with. These are clearly 2 entirely different methods of attacking. Like I asked earlier, and I don't want this getting ignored again, what reason is there to say Zen'o will start off with erasure rather than nuking conventional blasts?
He either raises his hand and the opponent gets erased or he nukes them like he nuked Zamasu and the timeline he fused with. These are clearly 2 entirely different methods of attacking. Like I asked earlier, and I don't want this getting ignored again, what reason is there to say Zen'o will start off with erasure rather than nuking conventional blasts?
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Zamasu was erased tho...
Even if that is not the case, Yu has 10-B dura...
Even if that is not the case, Yu has 10-B dura...
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The arguement was never "is that going to be his first attack" clearly if and when he does that's going to be his option, the arguement is why would he open the encounter with that when he's in character and unprovoked by his opponent? Clearly if he gets annoyed or pissed he'll erase, my point is what leads up to him getting provoked into doing so, and why?
It's a "fight", yes, but one brought about through different means than "A and B appear and are pissed at one another, FIGHT!", the reasonings for such and the context behind it have been explained in this thread already.
It's a "fight", yes, but one brought about through different means than "A and B appear and are pissed at one another, FIGHT!", the reasonings for such and the context behind it have been explained in this thread already.
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Btw, I'm neutral about who wins this fight specifically. Only wanted to bring up a specific point here.
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Gargoyle One said:
Only one vote towards Zeno counts so far because, unike all the others that just use some variation of "lol, Zeno stomps" without any explination of how and why he does within the specifics of this scenario, they actually explained how he would win, granted they used innacurate info towards Kaito to get to that conclusion, so i'm waiting for their responce before I add the vote.
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No one stated Zen'o stomps. The closest thing was "Zeno squishes".
Also, the argument of "lol insta-Erase" that you seem so vehemently against has been accepted by multiple Admins and staff members. SBA dictates that Zen'o is willing to kill so he would mostly kill Kaito before violating the taboo.
Also, the argument of "lol insta-Erase" that you seem so vehemently against has been accepted by multiple Admins and staff members. SBA dictates that Zen'o is willing to kill so he would mostly kill Kaito before violating the taboo.
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>"some variation of" the overall point was they gave no other reasons other than "zeno's stronger, therefore win"
When matches have no specific set up's, and are just random encounters with no specification of strictly in character or flat out bloodlusted matches/matches with characters who do start with attacking or threat displays, yes, those liberties and freedoms apply, this is a different case. And, again, willing to kill =/= immediatly aiming to kill even if the in character personality wouldn't have them doing so while unprovoked.
When matches have no specific set up's, and are just random encounters with no specification of strictly in character or flat out bloodlusted matches/matches with characters who do start with attacking or threat displays, yes, those liberties and freedoms apply, this is a different case. And, again, willing to kill =/= immediatly aiming to kill even if the in character personality wouldn't have them doing so while unprovoked.
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Just because something's common for others who, no offense to anyone in particular, might not stress the details, doesn't mean it's that's an absolute rule for every match ever. Take several factors into consideration, who was he facing off against, was that person the type to lead in with a threat display or attack, how did they encounter one another, were they stated specifically to be going for the kill but still act "in character" otherwise? You can't paint all matches with the same broad brush.
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Blues right on that point. Zen'o does lead with erasure in all of his matches.
My only issue with this is how it's executed but I'll just bring it up another time. At this point it'd be detailing.
My only issue with this is how it's executed but I'll just bring it up another time. At this point it'd be detailing.
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That logic can be applied to literally anyone Bear
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What? Is that a character who's in character personality dictates that they wouldn't kill without a proper reason would, in fact, not kill without a proper reason while character and unprovoked? Are you trying to say that logic doesn't make sense, and instead all in character matches actually mean aim to kill off the bat? Once again, willing to kill does not mean immediately aiming to kill, it just means, when left with no other option, they will do so despite the characters feelings/usual reservations. Win by KO/BFR/etc are all still a thing for a reason, there's more than one win scenario than a kill, not saying Zeno wouldn't kill, in fact I've never said that, but, for the last time, he has no reason to lead in with EE without a probable cause or provocative while in character and facing another who isn't directly harming him or making threat displays.
Just because other threads lead in with the vague criteria of "Zeno vs X, speed equal" and nothing else, leading the readers to all assume multiple different, and for some largely incorrect things, doesn't mean that's the ironclad gold standard, and every thread has to follow that same vague, unspecified "anything goes" rule.
I don't think I need to explain that yes, had I set this up as an off the bat aiming to kill Zeno vs off the bat aiming to kill Kaito, a good 7/10, assuming Zeno isn't within range of Kaito and Kaito hasn't made speech taboo to slip up Zeno as he possibly says something, resulting in a draw since he'd lose his soul, while Kaito also dies, Zeno wins. Because of that I specified a scenario where in both of these character's "character/personality" clashing wouldn't result in an immediate brawl or "shoot to kill off the bat" but rather an actual match bewteen the two where both have a fair change of beating the other, because unlike most of the rest of the DBZ cast, Zeno isn's a fighter, he's just a monsterously naive and detached from reality kid, the kind of kid who would happily play a game with a stranger who wouldn't immediatly cower or run at the sight of him, considering his loneliness, near constant boredom, and longing to have someone that will play with him, and all this works with an opposing character who would go along with said game, with he himself being no stranger to strange looking demons/creatures, thus we have a clear and cut scenario for the match.
Just because other threads lead in with the vague criteria of "Zeno vs X, speed equal" and nothing else, leading the readers to all assume multiple different, and for some largely incorrect things, doesn't mean that's the ironclad gold standard, and every thread has to follow that same vague, unspecified "anything goes" rule.
I don't think I need to explain that yes, had I set this up as an off the bat aiming to kill Zeno vs off the bat aiming to kill Kaito, a good 7/10, assuming Zeno isn't within range of Kaito and Kaito hasn't made speech taboo to slip up Zeno as he possibly says something, resulting in a draw since he'd lose his soul, while Kaito also dies, Zeno wins. Because of that I specified a scenario where in both of these character's "character/personality" clashing wouldn't result in an immediate brawl or "shoot to kill off the bat" but rather an actual match bewteen the two where both have a fair change of beating the other, because unlike most of the rest of the DBZ cast, Zeno isn's a fighter, he's just a monsterously naive and detached from reality kid, the kind of kid who would happily play a game with a stranger who wouldn't immediatly cower or run at the sight of him, considering his loneliness, near constant boredom, and longing to have someone that will play with him, and all this works with an opposing character who would go along with said game, with he himself being no stranger to strange looking demons/creatures, thus we have a clear and cut scenario for the match.
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Did you even read what you typed? Willing to kill means they are willing to use whatever they have to kill their opponents.SirBrownBear said:
Win by KO/BFR/etc are all still a thing for a reason, there's more than one win scenario than a kill, not saying Zeno wouldn't kill, in fact I've never said that, but, for the last time, he has no reason to lead in with EE without a probable cause or provocative while in character and facing another who isn't directly harming him or making threat displays.
If you even watched any episode of the tournament of power arc that has Zeno in it, he literally kills other people with no remorse.
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>Did you even read what you typed?
Yes I did, did you? Because it clearly explains what that means in regards to the "in character" part of the rule, how those situations play out, unless specified differently.
>If you even watched any episode of the tournament of power arc that has Zeno in it, he literally kills other people with no remorse.
I have, what's your point? He killed Frost because he violated his rules, he deletes universes because that's also part of the rules, he didn't do so on a random whim because "bored now, lol, gone you go". Just because his naive and grossly detached childish mentality leads him to treat the universe, planets, and it's inhabitants as toys and a means of entertainment like you or I would view in a video game/video game characters, doesn't mean his childish and playful mentality suddenly doesn't exist.
Yes I did, did you? Because it clearly explains what that means in regards to the "in character" part of the rule, how those situations play out, unless specified differently.
>If you even watched any episode of the tournament of power arc that has Zeno in it, he literally kills other people with no remorse.
I have, what's your point? He killed Frost because he violated his rules, he deletes universes because that's also part of the rules, he didn't do so on a random whim because "bored now, lol, gone you go". Just because his naive and grossly detached childish mentality leads him to treat the universe, planets, and it's inhabitants as toys and a means of entertainment like you or I would view in a video game/video game characters, doesn't mean his childish and playful mentality suddenly doesn't exist.
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How does ANY of that disregard the point that he immediately erases right off the bat against anyone.
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I agree with Bear here. Zen'O, as a childish figure, would love games and probably humor him in playing it.
Zen'O will erase those he dislikes without any care, but if someone doesn't show overt aggression he has no reason to throw erases around. If someone tries to attack him yeah they are gone.
Zen'O will erase those he dislikes without any care, but if someone doesn't show overt aggression he has no reason to throw erases around. If someone tries to attack him yeah they are gone.
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@Assault Zeno gets irritated from the slightest things that happen. So even if he wants to play, it's only a matter of time until zeno raises his hand and GG.
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Easy, future Zeno's interaction with Goku. He was suddenly summoned before a guy who he never knew before hand or met, and yet when this complete stranger charged towards him for a hug he wasn't expecting, there was no erasure before or after the fact, nor an indication that Zeno was ever going to do so, if anything given future Zeno's glum and blank expressions compared to the more bright and cheerful present Zeno. It stands to reason that he's multitudes more bored and lonely at that point, especially considering Zamasu wiped out basically everything, so any kind of none threatening, friendly interactions would be welcome, as they clearly appeared to be. Stack that on top of normal Zeno and how he behaves as well as the details and info listed above that i'm not retyping out for the fifth time, and you get a docile Zeno, at least until he's unprovoked.
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Zen'O may have no empathy but he doesn't just delete people right and left. Goku walked up to him and he didn't get deleted. He has his guards and others that are constantly around him who don't get deleted.
If Zen'O isn't provoked he doesn't just flail his deleting hands around.
If Zen'O isn't provoked he doesn't just flail his deleting hands around.
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Theglassman12 said:
Ok, I'm not saying that can't happen, but how long does it take for that to happen? How does Zeno get angry/annoyed enough to do that? What actions play out to have him go from "yay, game time" to "lol, alt+f4 nerd"? Does Zeno for some reason shown not play the game? Can he even get past the taboo without slipping up at some point? Explain your reasoning in a way that's relevent to the scenario and info given, not for the reasons Zeno won in some other thread under a different scenario, that's all I'm asking for here.
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@Assalt
I'd like to come out and note that Zen'O didn't erase Goku because Goku literally just entertained Zen'O with an awesome fight as well as offers the idea of a tournament where Zen'O can be entertained even more. And the point about his guards is moot since he understands the roles of his guards and Grand Priest, telling them "It's okay" and directly requesting things from Grand Priest.
"If Zen'O isn't provoked he doesn't just flail his deleting hands around." Except... y'know.... Zen'O is arguably worse than Beerus, who commits mass genocide because their food was too oily...?
I'd like to come out and note that Zen'O didn't erase Goku because Goku literally just entertained Zen'O with an awesome fight as well as offers the idea of a tournament where Zen'O can be entertained even more. And the point about his guards is moot since he understands the roles of his guards and Grand Priest, telling them "It's okay" and directly requesting things from Grand Priest.
"If Zen'O isn't provoked he doesn't just flail his deleting hands around." Except... y'know.... Zen'O is arguably worse than Beerus, who commits mass genocide because their food was too oily...?
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"State of mind: In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."
^^People tend to miss that part of the SBA....but i'm just enjoying the show, don't mind me.
^^People tend to miss that part of the SBA....but i'm just enjoying the show, don't mind me.
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>"If Zen'O isn't provoked he doesn't just flail his deleting hands around." Except... y'know.... Zen'O is arguably worse than Beerus, who commits mass genocide because their food was too oily...?
Difference between the two is Beerus is a "down to earth" being who's fully aware of his actions, who he's taking advantage of, etc, and his reasoning for not caring about the people he kills or the planets he destroys is that no one can stop him/tell him otherwise (except for Zeno, but he and the grand priest don't seem to care, until the tourney anyways.) Zeno on the other hand is akin to a sheltered, naive, spoiled child with full creator control over a giant VR game, and views the people, planets, and so on within it as toys or simple entertainment, not because he's a twisted psycho, but because he's never been outside his palace and interacted with the world, he's always viewed the mortal world through a hologram/screen, stack that alongside the blue alien and his kids that give you the title of and consider you the supreme god, and you have a kid with no grasp of reality outside his own "bubble" who doesn't view the rest of reality as anything but some game/a show to entertain, but also has to be maintained. Until it gets out of hand (zamasu), becomes more trouble than it's worth (all the universes on the chopping block/already deleted), or personally annoys him (zamasu and frost) in which case he wipes em out because "oh well, I got more." As long as he's happy and his demands are met, he has no reason to lash out (i'm getting sick of repeating this, but it seems if I don't someone assumes I'm denying Zeno access to his powers) IN CHARACTER.
Difference between the two is Beerus is a "down to earth" being who's fully aware of his actions, who he's taking advantage of, etc, and his reasoning for not caring about the people he kills or the planets he destroys is that no one can stop him/tell him otherwise (except for Zeno, but he and the grand priest don't seem to care, until the tourney anyways.) Zeno on the other hand is akin to a sheltered, naive, spoiled child with full creator control over a giant VR game, and views the people, planets, and so on within it as toys or simple entertainment, not because he's a twisted psycho, but because he's never been outside his palace and interacted with the world, he's always viewed the mortal world through a hologram/screen, stack that alongside the blue alien and his kids that give you the title of and consider you the supreme god, and you have a kid with no grasp of reality outside his own "bubble" who doesn't view the rest of reality as anything but some game/a show to entertain, but also has to be maintained. Until it gets out of hand (zamasu), becomes more trouble than it's worth (all the universes on the chopping block/already deleted), or personally annoys him (zamasu and frost) in which case he wipes em out because "oh well, I got more." As long as he's happy and his demands are met, he has no reason to lash out (i'm getting sick of repeating this, but it seems if I don't someone assumes I'm denying Zeno access to his powers) IN CHARACTER.
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@Akreious
I meant Future Zen'O.
I meant Future Zen'O.
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SirBrownBear said:
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