(Super To Aru Revision) A Certain Magical Revision Genesis Testament

[DontTalkDT]

Let's start with the UES stuff. For a start AIM isn't the energy source of espers. It's just a random byproduct created by their powers, which are powered by nothing. (They work based on Subjective Reality)

Anyway, this stuff doesn't qualify for UES. Like, lots of those characters do have stats that apply all around due to various circumstances (e.g. basically all saints fight physically) but Idol Theory gives a hard no to scaling magic to physicals, just because you can use magic to boost physicals. Magic in ToAru just is generally not as easy as Energy Input = Energy Output. Each spell, depending on how well it is designed, can have any degree of output. As Birdway and Index demonstrated when creating Gungnir, given the right setup, a Tier 6 magician can call forth Tier 1 power using the right spell. The power of a spell is primarily decided by which supernatural thing it calls upon and how well it does so (i.e. how good the replica is, which is why saints who are natural replicas of history saints have such a big advantage).
As such physical boosting spells are not necessarily equal in strength to every other spell a character uses.

Edit: Also just commented on a bunch of those calcs, in case ya don't get notifications from your blogs. (Fandom can be weird)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

If you scale Touma to 5B, or whatever rating the MGs, Anna, etc end after this CRT, it will scale to literally everyone in the verse, from Kanzaki and Acqua to Terra and even Kihara Amata.

This really just doesn't work, you noted in the OP that Silvia turned him into a dark red mass and you still want to scale Touma to her level or even above? Do you at least know the difference between endurance and durability?

Okay, waht are you talking about? I was only ever talked about a possibly at most rating for whatever rating that the high tier/saint tier people have, and even then, it would be a highly downscaled version of it that would be made very apparent that while he would be "at" that level, he would still belong to a category that is below them. The only 5-B that Touma harmed was Anna, whose durability is questionable (and whose stats is suffering the same way Alice are cuz GT is just starting and we have no idea on how to fully scale them just yet as they have showed off little to nothing - but that is a writing problem from Kamachi's problem of introducing new characters and bigger and stronger baddies without truly showing off what means them stronger than previous threats, and also a scaling problem... but that is off-topic), to say the least.

Yes, and Silvia only turned him into a dark red mass after an entirely off-screen beating that we don't know the exact length of; and was entirely capable of standing up and moving after Ollerus came to save them, and could fight Thor and suffer another painful beating from him due to Almighty Thor; and he could still move good enough to evade all of Othinus' arrows even after that, meaning, Touma's durability could shrug off Silvia's beating to a degree and he could endure the injuries.

And the entire foundation of this "scaling" stems AP-wise from Touma being able to punch Black Wing Accelerator with no issue in WWIII and knock out White Wing Accelerator with a rock strike to the heart - we both know that Accelerator gets constantly powered up by his wings to have better durability via his wings flowing its energy throughout his body, Touma couldn't fully negate Accelerator's wings nor any constant power source, and, well, he could punch him without issue; Thor likely has a similar deal going on with Mjolnir based on the few things we know about that mode of his, and Touma's right hand, and thus his body, could withstand the force that broke Thor's wrists. We also know that both Touma and Accelerator can take hits from Dark Matter wings without much issue.

Truth be told, however, I did get hasty from Doggo's sudden approval of this idea.

Let me go through these 4 feats really quickly:

MGs' surface feat: doesn't scale to saint level

Fiamma's surface feat: you sure he'd destroy the whole surface and not just Eurasia?

Fiamma's ocean feat: doesn't scale to saint level

Aleister's feat: doesn't scale to saint level

Ye, ye.

MG: Why are you even mentioning that feat? Of course anything the magic gods do doesn't scale to Saint level; it was only added for supporting evidence for them.

Fiamma #1: Yes. It was specially mentioned that a ridiculously huge explosion will spread across the surface and it could easily destroy all of human civilization - Fiamma affirmed and then added on that at least the entire continent of Eurasia would be enveloped by his attack.

Fiamma #2: Supporting evidence for Fiamma's High 6-A rating, essentially. And because it was only stated he could do that after he was being heavily weakened by his plan falling apart and then Touma pissed Fiamma off a bit too much to do his explosion thingy.

Aleister: It was specifically mentioned that her Son of God, during the end of it, while it had already build up her purified body to a higher level. that there was some build-up to take on the wounds "he" had received when "he" was crucified for Aleister to ascend, so to speak, meaning it was likely that she wasn't entirely at the level of the top tiers just yet. Yes, "he" is Jesus and I had no idea on how to bring him up other than here.

Although, truth be told, I am warming up to your idea of 6-B rating, and we can back it up by Accelerator and Hyouka getting hit by at least one sweep arrow/meteor/whatever it is.

Now you're trying to get every single mid tier in the verse to solar system level...

Like, don't you see any problem with the strongest spell of a character being half-planet level when they are supposed to be solar system with every single punch?

Again, just because a verse has a UES doesn't mean you can scale absolutely every feat to everyone without having any support, that's not how it works, we'd have everyone in JJK at 5A by this point if we went by that route.

Also, there are other spells that are a more direct version of reality warping, Thor for example has a earth-exclusive version of Astro in Hand and it doesn't give him planet level stats, you know.

You and I know both know that I was pointing it out that Misha put more "effort" into casting Sweep than into any of her "Astro in Hand" feats, i.e, she actually had to "charge" while she just had to "blink" her eyes, and not specifically trying to scale them to that level.

Thor's spell also specifically doesn't have any offensive power in the slightest; it is just a spell that moves him to a spot where he would win, nothing more, nothing less. I've repeated checked and it wasn't stated anywhere that it could do damage, essentially, it is a souped-up version of Awaki's teleporting but from the "magic side" - and is more akin to Accelerator's galaxy shaking feat or Kimi's black hole creation than anything else.

And sides, DT regarding UES has commented. And well, ye. What he said was convincing.

 

[Churronzon]

What do you make of Accelerator's holism? Does it apply a tier 4 attack on people?

it bares mention that Wing Winged Accelerator's only feat was something that Accelerator was prepared to do with his Black Wings but was stopped by Last Order before he could.

We don't know if his Black Wings would have allowed him to accomplish the same feat he did with his white wings. We should stick with using feats.

Took several direct hits from Nephthys without any mention of his Vector Manipulation reducing their effectiveness.

Well the implication that his vector manip didn't reduce the dmg would place him around planet level (or 3-A per the scaling in this thread) physically.

It was considered remarkable by the narrative for Lola/Coronzon to have survived against them.

I like how Kamachi compared Coronzon's fight with Niang-Niang to Aleisters fight with True Gremlin as if the former was still High 1-C. He said the same with Samuel Mathers

Coronzon was confident that she could survive an incomplete activation of her Ceremony of Mo Athair, while it wouldn't activate the actual verse-wide wipe Coronzon actually wanted it to do, it was still stated that the incomplete ceremony was enough to destroy about half the universe - and that she just figure out another way to achieve her goals after her obvious enemies were dealt with, and she can't do that if she is dead. Although, there is the counter that this is probably only due to the physical body that Coronzon has used throughout the series is merely an avatar Coronzon that exists somewhere else, so this probably isn't good enough by itself. (Half of the Universe is... still 3-A? or just high end 3-B? Idk)

The reason I went for 3-B is because of this following statement:

• Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently estimated to be 93 billion light-years in diameter.

It is funny however to consider the scenario that Toaru's 3rd dimension is 93 billion light years across while supporting a High 1-C structure. Maybe an upgrade could be made.

New Justification for (AF) Misha's Attack Potency - At Least High 6-A, possibly 5-C (Should be comparable to her Attack Potency)

Seems like you have a typo here when you say that her AP is comparable to her AP.

Astro in Hand and Sweep works via telesma/ley line energy/whatever energy source Misha runs on

What energy source do you think Coronzon's Ceremony uses for the destruction of the known verse that requires a point equidistant from the center points of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland? Not talking about the temple barrier.

 

[Churronzon]

Dare I even ask how NT4 Fiamma scales above WWIII LPSaD Fiamma

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

What do you make of Accelerator's holism? Does it apply a tier 4 attack on people?

Ye, it seems so to me.

We don't know if his Black Wings would have allowed him to accomplish the same feat he did with his white wings. We should stick with using feats.

Yes, and the white wings only have a singular feat, we also don't know if Accelerator's Black Wings and Accelerator's White Wings are any different from each other other than the emotions that they use to manifest - it also doesn't help that the only time that the wings were used in actual combat, and not one-sided stomps like Teitoku and Amata (or against Coronzon, but those wings were entirely different from his White and Black Wings, so eh), were only against Touma... and yes, I am also counting Rensa. I am more open to the idea of those two wings being on a similar level, since the only thing that makes them different is, well... just a single feat, that Accelerator was preparing to do with his Black Wings.

Well the implication that his vector manip didn't reduce the dmg would place him around planet level (or 3-A per the scaling in this thread) physically.

Eh, and at that point in NT, the only person that had bypassed his reflection and physically harmed him was Nephthys, and only her, and nobody since has fought the Accelerator that was fighting all-out since from what I recall, he holding back against Elizard and the only threat to him during that fight was Curtana Second, which has dura-neg qualities and could potentially kill Aiwass, and he was able to knock her out easily with a single punch; and we know that Accelerator got somewhat of a power up via his trash daughter, Qliphah, so Touma being able to knock him out in NT10 doesn't scale him to his level either.

I like how Kamachi compared Coronzon's fight with Niang-Niang to Aleisters fight with True Gremlin as if the former was still High 1-C. He said the same with Samuel Mathers

I am inclined to think that the comparison was made since Coronzon got off relatively light and could fight and fend off Niang-Niang compared to Aleister's offscreen fight with True Gremlin in where his body got fricked up and True Gremlin didn't even consider him much of a threat and more along the lines of an annoying bug that they let live out because of a whim if we consider their scenes in NT12.

The reason I went for 3-B is because of this following statement:

• Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently estimated to be 93 billion light-years in diameter.

It is funny however to consider the scenario that Toaru's 3rd dimension is 93 billion light years across while supporting a High 1-C structure. Maybe an upgrade could be made.

That isn't in my ballpark, so can't comment, however... So sorry about that, you are on your own on this.

Seems like you have a typo here when you say that her AP is comparable to her AP.

Thanks.

What energy source do you think Coronzon's Ceremony uses for the destruction of the known verse that requires a point equidistant from the center points of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland? Not talking about the temple barrier.

Best guess is leylines as my first guess. My second guess that it may come from her own power. But am leaning towards the former instead of the latter, since that shit powers a lot of stuff and is the largest source of magical energy that Coronzon can use freely.

Dare I even ask how NT4 Fiamma scales above WWIII LPSaD Fiamma

Nah, that is a limitation of the scaling chain. Basically, we know that Othinus could sense the power that IT had during WWIII, wasn't afraid to challenge it and was unimpressed at Baggage City IT to the point that she could casually crush it - we also know that Fiamma and Ollerus could fend Othinus off. So the scaling chain is more along the lines of... WWIII IT >>> BC IT <<< Othinus ~ {Fiamma} ~ {Ollerus}


Othinus scaling vastly above Baggage City IT which scales vastly below WWIII IT, Ollerus and Fiamma need to work together to fend off Othinus - and Ollerus himself admits that he is below her in overall power - so they downscale to her to a notable degree; I just couldn't properly put this together neatly in the scaling chain.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hey, hey, fanta here. Ye. I'm going to be serious here. I am going to be gone for a bit; fam member is at hosptial, I am going to leave in 30 mins and Ineed to watch over 'em since I am the person who is physically closest to their location (and they are relatively close to me), and won't be around for a bit cuz of that. You can talk and whatnot, but I can't update my OP or talk with ya folks during that time. Will try to come back two days from now, but no promises.

 

[Churronzon]

Sorry to hear that.

Hope all goes well

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Back. Sorta. Fam mem is fine, but I might have to live with them full-time to take care of them, depending on certain IRL stuff and if other fam mems can't help out, so my online time is limited to say the least and I might have to take a break from certain online stuff (like this stuff) in the near future for a few months to focus on 'em and very important irl stuff like college and the aformentioned. So before I go, let's get talking.

Worst case, I'll ask @DontTalkDT to close this thread and give permission for anybody to use my calcs for upgrades, like you, @Churronzon, or you, @Doggo - and of 'course, premission to downgrade 'em, like I know @DontTalkDT plans to do someday, due to my CRT efforts being wrong... even if that sort of thing doesn't need premission, figured I should say it. lel.

 

[Doggo]

Back. Sorta. Fam mem is fine, but I might have to live with them full-time to take care of them, depending on certain IRL stuff and if other fam mems can't help out, so my online time is limited to say the least and I might have to take a break from certain online stuff (like this stuff) in the near future for a few months to focus on 'em and very important irl stuff like college and the aformentioned. So before I go, let's get talking.

Worst case, I'll ask @DontTalkDT to close this thread and give permission for anybody to use my calcs for upgrades, like you, @Churronzon, or you, @Doggo - and of 'course, premission to downgrade 'em, like I know @DontTalkDT plans to do someday, due to my CRT efforts being wrong... even if that sort of thing doesn't need premission, figured I should say it. lel.

It's fine take your time

Your life is more important than this

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This fanta already knows that, Doggo, lel.

Figured I should give you guys all a heads up on when it happens.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Anyhows...

Anybody have thoughts of what everything else was said? I was planning to revert the section regarding the lowerer tiers (Joker, Low, Middle) to... well, actually, the same as before (At Least 8-C / 8-B, Possibly 8-B / 8-A) or (At Least 8-B or 8-A, with a possibly higher being added to Touma and Accel only) or something else somebody suggested depending on which one that is better to you guys. And regarding the High Tiers, was thinking At Least 6-B was good for 'em via Misha/Gabby scaling due to what Noir said and possibly have a Possibly High 6-A rating attached to it via Liquid-Proof Railgun scaling via it being superior to Accel's High 6-A attack in OT13 (note: this was likely going to only be for Aleister and Mathers, I think more could qualify but am not entirely sure)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye. Well... Somethings pop into my mind, so I'mma ask you guys about 'em since they are somewhat important in this CRT.

About Teitoku Kakine

Or more specifically, how do we treat Teitoku's Dark Matter wings clearly hitting Touma and Accelerator? Doesn't seem like an outliner since both of them could withstand it and continue fighting, and Teitoku himself has a clear fear of clashing directly with Accelerator for several mins (or whatever the canon timeframe for their fight was) until they were both sent rocketing away from each other due to a shockwave coming from their final clash until Accelerator surpassed him and his Dark Matter, which injured the both of them equally.

So, does this mean Teitoku's Dark Matter shouldn't scale to Accelerator's Ability Full AP and SS value at all and its Dura is in the same boat? This doesn't seem to be the case since Teitoku could, well, stop Accelerator's vector attacks and match them blow-for-blow - something Beetle 05 did as well when he fought against the Rensa who was using Accelerator's ability prior to her popping out the Black Wings.

Although, the Black Wings also don't really matter - Accelerator didn't even use it on Teitoku, he just used a long-distance vector attack and began beating him to near-death with his bare hands; Beetle 05 got insta one-shot when he got hit by the black wings from Rensa and was out of the fight for a long time afterwards but Beetle is a heavily nerfed Teitoku and those wings did something weird to his body, so that is understandable.

About Brunhild

Or more specifically, how do we treat her fight with Mikoto? These was no hint or mention that she was holding back - especially since she had no reason to hold back and she did go for the kill whenever she had the chance. So we can't say that her arrogance lowered her durability or something, when Mikoto managed to injure her with her electricity nor can we say that Brunhild could tank or stop Mikoto's Railgun when we know that Mikoto's entire complex about being weak and her railgun being, well, a door knocker in fights all started with the High Priest encounter.

We also have very few fights in where Brunhild is mentioned to hold back or anything - like, if my memory serves me right (which it should since I remember reading it a bit ago), Kaori in Norse SS figured every opponent that she faced in that SS whom managed to be on a level where they could fight her stemed from Brunhild either telling them advice or them showcasing what a saint like her could do, so there is that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Going to lock this by FantaRin's request. Outstanding arguments can of course be picked up again in new threads.