The True Uchiha VS The False Uchiha: Kakashi Hatake VS Madara Uchiha

[Purgy]

Him having it doesn't mean it's not interesting to fight.

If Madara had and could use the Eight Inner Gates are you honestly arguing he'd be anywhere near as interested in fighting Guy as he was? The answers pretty obvious.

He used limbo against Naruto and Sasuke because he was feeling super pressured.

Not true, he used Limbo against Naruto and Sasuke because it's one of his best moves and there's no reason for him not to use it, again, you're trying to use his fight with Guy as how he'd act against anybody which just isn't true.

We have Madara considering using Limbo against Obito and Kakashi, both of whom are immeasurably weaker than Eight Gates Guy, clearly Limbo is far more in character than you want to accept, Madara isn't going to fight Kakashi like he fought Guy at all.

Because he had a goal in mind of getting the final half of Kurama. He doesn't have such a strong motivation in this case.

He does though, he's trying to cast IT at this point, so getting rid of Kakashi as fast as possible is his goal.

Again, having it is not the same as fighting it.

Prove Madara would be as interested in PS as he would the Eighth Gate, you can't.

Bruh...it was literally a plot point that kamui is faster with both MS

That's only for sending themselves to the Kamui Dimension, zero evidence Kakashi's ability to BFR other people is faster when he has DMS

That's just straight up dishonest to say he knows just as much about it as Kakashi. Madara has barely learnt anything about it from a bit of observation, while Kakashi has studied it for years, and is far more experienced with it.

Based on what?

In fact, he literally used it better than Kakashi ever did on his first time using it, he managed to send himself to the Kamui dimension with Kakashi's Kamui, something Kakashi never demonstrated.

Combine that with having seen it used many times and even explicitly knowing how Obito's one works as he states himself when Obito passes through his TSB staff.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident that he has as much knowledge on it as Kakashi does, or at least, comparable enough for him to not just let his head be sniped off.

He used it immediately cause he saw Naruto making a gigantic lava rasenshuriken, there won't be so much time with Kakashi.

Or maybe it's just how he fights in general? In every other fight except Guy we see him using Limbo constantly, his fight with Guy is the exception and it's pretty easy to see why, he wanted to experience the 8th Gate.

Madara could handle Guy. There were multiple times throughout the fight he could've killed Guy but he didn't, like when he was charging up Night Guy. Naruto however was handling HIM.

Guy handled Madara just as bad and arguably worse that whatever Naruto did, whether or not that's because you think Madara let him is irrelevant.

Having a discount wood release didn't help against Hashirama. Having a discount kamui won't work against DMS Kakashi.

It lets him return from being BFR'd if that ever happens.

 

[TauanVictor]

Wouldn't considering Kamui for Madara be, say, going against the anime?

I mean, there are 2 eyes of Kamui that were used in the entire anime, and both will be with Kakashi. Consider +1 eye for Madara wouldn't be something like inconsistency?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If Madara had and could use the Eight Inner Gates are you honestly arguing he'd be anywhere near as interested in fighting Guy as he was? The answers pretty obvious.

Not true, he used Limbo against Naruto and Sasuke because it's one of his best moves and there's no reason for him not to use it, again, you're trying to use his fight with Guy as how he'd act against anybody which just isn't true.

We have Madara considering using Limbo against Obito and Kakashi, both of whom are immeasurably weaker than Eight Gates Guy, clearly Limbo is far more in character than you want to accept, Madara isn't going to fight Kakashi like he fought Guy at all.

He does though, he's trying to cast IT at this point, so getting rid of Kakashi as fast as possible is his goal.

Prove Madara would be as interested in PS as he would the Eighth Gate, you can't.

That's only for sending themselves to the Kamui Dimension, zero evidence Kakashi's ability to BFR other people is faster when he has DMS

Based on what?

In fact, he literally used it better than Kakashi ever did on his first time using it, he managed to send himself to the Kamui dimension with Kakashi's Kamui, something Kakashi never demonstrated.

Combine that with having seen it used many times and even explicitly knowing how Obito's one works as he states himself when Obito passes through his TSB staff.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident that he has as much knowledge on it as Kakashi does, or at least, comparable enough for him to not just let his head be sniped off.

Or maybe it's just how he fights in general? In every other fight except Guy we see him using Limbo constantly, his fight with Guy is the exception and it's pretty easy to see why, he wanted to experience the 8th Gate.

Guy handled Madara just as bad and arguably worse that whatever Naruto did, whether or not that's because you think Madara let him is irrelevant.

It lets him return from being BFR'd if that ever happens.

You can't say he wouldn't be.

Prove it.

Already answered that.

Is he trying to do that in this fight? I'm pretty sure plot isn't considered in VS battles.

It's a giant chakra avatar against a small man. Seems pretty interesting.

But Kakashi used his ability to BFR others to help Obito.

...

...yeah, never teleported himself. Unless you're saying teleporting himself out of it doesn't mean he can teleport into it, which is...based on nothing.

Naruto also has seen Kakashi use Kamui many times and could explain it, so is he as knowledgable about its ins and outs as Kakashi?

Not getting your head sniped by Kamui is very difficult in general. Deidara despite flying and being faster than Kakashi, couldn't completely avoid a Kamui snipe from a completely fresh Kamui.

Even if Madara used Limbo, that wouldn't get him front inside his PS.

It's because Madara knew Guy wasn't better than him so he wasn't terrified.

Doesn't let him return if his head is off.

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump?

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump

 

[TauanVictor]

Bumping

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Madara FRA.

Kakashi's PS is Low 6-B, and he's physically High 7-A. Both he and his Susano'o just get one shot out of existence by a single Limbo clone which he can't perceive at all. Kamui is dangerous, sure, but it's not going to help him against an attack he can't see or perceive until it's too late.

I agree with @Purgy about Limbo being very much in character for Madara. It's his most in-character move as a Juubi Jinchūriki, arguing otherwise is ridiculous.

Also, Kamui's BFR isn't instantaneous. In that extremely small window of time, Madara can just substitute with one of his clones and proceed to one-shot the insanely fragile Kakashi with another Limbo that he won't see coming.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Madara FRA.

Kakashi's PS is Low 6-B, and he's physically High 7-A. Both he and his Susano'o just get one shot out of existence by a single Limbo clone which he can't perceive at all. Kamui is dangerous, sure, but it's not going to help him against an attack he can't see or perceive until it's too late.

I agree with @Purgy about Limbo being very much in character for Madara. It's his most in-character move as a Juubi Jinchūriki, arguing otherwise is ridiculous.

Also, Kamui's BFR isn't instantaneous. In that extremely small window of time, Madara can just substitute with one of his clones and proceed to one-shot the insanely fragile Kakashi with another Limbo that he won't see coming.

When he feels the limbo hit the Susanoo and he gets knocked back, he'll go intangible. Like how when the all killing ash bones pierced his PS he then went intangible in response.

Even if it's in character, Kakashi's Kamui wincons are faster.

? He only had one limbo clone with 1 rinnegan.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

When he feels the limbo hit the Susanoo and he gets knocked back, he'll go intangible. Like how when the all killing ash bones pierced his PS he then went intangible in response.

Fair, but he can't attack while he's intangible and he can't fly without the Susano'o, so Madara's Limbo clone can just sit around and wait for the moment he turns tangible and Kakashi will be none the wiser as he cannot perceive it.

Even if it's in character, Kakashi's Kamui wincons are faster.

Kamui Shuriken and Raikiri can be easily avoided, or regenerated from in the Raikiri's case.
And again, speed isn't everything (not that it matters since it's equalized here anyway, but yeah). Madara Limbo's are simply something that Kakashi has no answer to. Can't see them, can't sense them, and they can easily one-shot him.

? He only had one limbo clone with 1 rinnegan.

Yeah my bad, I thought this was Triclops Madara. Doesn't change my argument too much though. Clone substitution is still something he can use to save himself if need be.

 

[Slacjow]

Fair, but he can't attack while he's intangible

Actually he can, that's the whole point of Kamui Raikiri.

An enhanced version of Kakashi’s original Ninjutsu. It is a Raikiri imbued with the power of Kamui. A divine speed hit is performed, in conjunction with the intangibility effect. The part of the enemy’s body pierced by this Jutsu is immediately transported to the other dimension.

But the thing is that Kakashi doesn't know when to dematerialize because Limbo is always around. Any time he dematerializes might be his last moment.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Actually he can, that's the whole point of Kamui Raikiri.

But the thing is that Kakashi doesn't know when to dematerialize because Limbo is always around. Any time he dematerializes might be his last moment.

The intangibility effect is combined with Raikiri itself, not Kakashi. That whole entry is about the Raikiri itself and how its been enhanced with Kamui.
Not that it matters too much honestly, Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, his reactions should allow him to dodge that.

 

[Slacjow]

The intangibility effect is combined with Raikiri itself, not Kakashi. That whole entry is about the Raikiri itself and how its been enhanced with Kamui.
Not that it matters too much honestly, Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, his reactions should allow him to dodge that.

I don't think so, in the previous sentence it already says that Raikiri is imbued with the power of Kamui. The other sentence refers to Kamui intangibility.
I don't remember someone referring to the offensive part of Kamui as "intangible effect", ever.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Fair, but he can't attack while he's intangible and he can't fly without the Susano'o, so Madara's Limbo clone can just sit around and wait for the moment he turns tangible and Kakashi will be none the wiser as he cannot perceive it.

Kamui Shuriken and Raikiri can be easily avoided, or regenerated from in the Raikiri's case.
And again, speed isn't everything (not that it matters since it's equalized here anyway, but yeah). Madara Limbo's are simply something that Kakashi has no answer to. Can't see them, can't sense them, and they can easily one-shot him.

Yeah my bad, I thought this was Triclops Madara. Doesn't change my argument too much though. Clone substitution is still something he can use to save himself if need be.

But the Limbo clone has no idea when Kakashi will become tangible either.

Kamui Shuriken has a large explosion radius. It's likely Madara will dodge it or block it and then when it blows up and sucks in everything around it Madara is ******.

I don't mena it's faster cause Kakashi's faster, just that it's a shorter process than a Limbo clone attacking Kakashi. And can they easily one shot him? It's never one shot anyone, not even Shukaku when used by SM Madara.

If he uses clone substitution then he can't use the limbo clone and without it he is literally ******. There's absolutely nothing he'll be able to do about Kakashi then. And yes the Kamui attack will affect the clone, since Sasuke just said you need six paths power to affect it

The intangibility effect is combined with Raikiri itself, not Kakashi. That whole entry is about the Raikiri itself and how its been enhanced with Kamui.
Not that it matters too much honestly, Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, his reactions should allow him to dodge that.

Didn't allow Kaguya to dodge it.

 

[TauanVictor]

Bump

 

[noct]

If it’s IC and Kamui time limit Madara can arguably win high diff , if it’s booodkisted and infinite state Kakashi just solos the verse lol

 

[TauanVictor]

If it’s IC and Kamui time limit Madara can arguably win high diff , if it’s booodkisted and infinite state Kakashi just solos the verse lol

Voting on?

 

[theultimate5105]

After reading the thread Kakashi FRA

 

[noct]

IC I can’t tell I am not a pro of this , bloodlust Kakashi one shot when I say one shot it’s not bc kakashi is far stronger but his hax is only to one shot he can’t kill him w time or smth lol if he does not one shot then he tries again since he is intag while phase that’s kind of a mistake from kishi I hate his power up lol that’s too much for a char like him he would just give him susano and Kamui normal not intag while phase this is just extremely broken in the verse even w infinite chakra Kaguya would be tied , since no one can kill each other , intag immortality BFR come back lol that’s not funng at all , actually if the fight have stayed 10 days then Obito would stay 10 days so it’s just for plot that Kishi has restricted it fast he just carried the fight lol , if he got the seals he just creates a clone and seals her haha but that’s stupid , anyways Kakashi is weaker than Madara , but he wins in a fight

 

[noct]

So I vote Kakashi but not sure in IC he can lose time for his Kamui but I doubt Madara can scale to his speed or counter space time hax lol , unless he can use god of death to reincarnate himself w rinnegan but too slow , and BFR should be removed this is unfair he will just die in another dimension this is not a even a fight

 

[noct]

And susano can protect from infinite tsukuyomi lol I hate saying this but in a pure fight like bloodlust morals off no knowledge no plot , Kakashi just eats him lol my Madara fanboy soul is crying now

 

[TauanVictor]

Bumping.

 

[TauanVictor]

Checking here, Grace must be done.

This can now be added.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Checking here, Grace must be done.

This can now be added.

Yessss, DMS Kakashi just barely got the recognition from the wiki he deserves.