Death Battle REMATCH | Madara vs Aizen

[Shadowbokunohero]

The original claim was that the Edo werent affected because they were in Zetsu bodies. The counter to that was, When Orochimaru brought back the kage, he put his soul into a white zetsu to escape the cost of being sealed in the belly of the reaper. Lo and behold, he was still trapped in the infinite tsukuyomi. This makes me skeptical of the reason the edo's were not effected being because they were trapped in zetsu, which why Kinsey created the ad hoc "dead soul" distinction.

ahh, but Orochimaru's jutsu overwrites the victim when he resurrects, his not controlling the zetsu's body like a empty corpse . so i dont think his comparable to the edo either.

Eh. Izanami gg.

i dont think this is a valid wincon, as not only has madara never used it in character ever at any point, Aizen isnt a character who's trying to be something his not.

 

[Arcker123]

ahh, but Orochimaru's jutsu overwrites the victim when he resurrects, his not controlling the zetsu's body like a empty corpse . so i dont think his comparable to the edo either.

Wouldn't Gigai (Dead souls in literal puppet bodies) be comparable then?

i dont think this is a valid wincon, as not only has madara never used it in character ever at any point, Aizen isnt a character who's trying to be something his not.

Fair enough on IC (I made this argument before), but I do think you can argue about it working on Aizen, given what we learn in chapter 423

 

[KingogKings777]

ahh, but Orochimaru's jutsu overwrites the victim when he resurrects, his not controlling the zetsu's body like a empty corpse . so i dont think his comparable to the edo either.

Doesn't the second go god dang he got some of brothers cells in him or something when summoned?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wouldn't Gigai (Dead souls in literal puppet bodies) be comparable then?

I mean arnt Giga closer to being just empty biological bodies as oppose to being literal corpses?

Fair enough on IC (I made this argument before), but I do think you can argue about it working on Aizen, given what we learn in chapter 423

While i dont agree with some of the sentiments here about izanami just being random genjutsu and you can make parallels of izanami being a counter to izanagi's fate bending and reality warping jutsu with something like the Hogyoku but i feel like its a still bit too speculative to me to base an entire wincon round.

but as i see it right now Madara's only agreed wincon seems to have an equal amount divisiveness if it would even work, and even if that wincon lands, theres an equal amount of scrutiny if it would even be sustainable , given Aizen's adaption.

while this isnt aimed at you or anyone specifically , given i havent read much of the 3 pages prior to this, but a lot of Madara's wincons come off as grasping as straws to create a non committal vague wincon for Madara for the sake of avoiding the thread being closed as a stomp.

Aizen has a higher AP, can evolve, resists everything madara can throw at him, Madara has no way of permanently putting him down and his only potential wincons are debatable at best and a OOC move thats very circumstantial .

id prob suggest OP use different versions of these characters for the sake of having a fairer match.

 

[Arcker123]

I mean arnt Giga closer to being just empty biological bodies as oppose to being literal corpses

Certain Gigai (Like Isshins) are. Most aren't, and are literal human dummies like the ones you'd study in an anatomy class.

While i dont agree with some of the sentiments here about izanami just being random genjutsu and you can make parallels of izanami being a counter to izanagi's fate bending and reality warping jutsu with something like the Hogyoku but i feel like its a still bit too speculative to me to base an entire wincon round.

Yeah I was joking there about Aizen being "lol I'm lonely" in chapter in 423 as a reason Izanami might initially work. I really only laughed off the idea that it directly manipulated fate as Kinsey claimed.

Even then, I already agreed with and posted multiple reasons the Izanami is a faulty wincon. Hogyoku is also >>>>>>> Izanagi in terms of, well everything (The Izanami counters the Izanagi in the sense that it forces Izanagi users to repeat their actions and repent. It doesn't directly interact with the ability itself, so i dont see why it specially counters Hogyoku's fate manipuĺatuon and reality warping, which are inherently better by being 3-A to Low 2-C).

Aizen has a higher AP, can evolve, resists everything madara can throw at him, Madara has no way of permanently putting him down and his only potential wincons are debatable at best and a OOC move thats very circumstantial .

id prob suggest OP use different versions of these characters for the sake of having a fairer match.

This is the weakest version of Aizen vs the strongest form of Madara.

Unless we want to use soul society captain Aizen, this will never go differently.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

then the match should prob just be closed

 

[Arcker123]

I mean I'm down to debate Glasses aizen vs Juubidara.

At least TSO's can be an actual wincon (Aizen still wins).

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If this match isn’t labeled a stomp, count my vote in favor of Aizen.

 

[Raiden_Azno]

Good thing he has info analysis in his physiology and as his raw intellect-based ability. Also the Hogyoku would notice whatever Aizen was hit by and how to counter it, which is why it doesn't matter in the first place.

Where does he have info analysis in his physiology? He adapts to something after its already taken effect not before, not only that it takes a little while before he's adapted. If Aizen achieve's his dreams (which the Infinite Tsukiyomi does) then the Hogyoku will not do anything.

No not really, Aizen adapted to his senses being reversed by Shinji, which affected his Reikaku as well, Aizen would just find a way around it since unlike vs Shinji, he has Reikaku untouched.

Here's where you're wrong, Shinji's reverses your perception and that's something Kabuto instantly adapted to. Madara's genjutsu is not only massively stronger than Shinji's, he can control you, control your perception of time, erase your memory and ect.

Look at the AP diff from the first fusion to the second fusion, if Madara triggers his RE, he's cooked beyond belief because then he dies from Reiatsu Crush due to the AP diff. Also you need to neg Mid-Godly to destroy the Hogyoku, which Madara cannot do

He's only allowed his first fusion. Aizen cannot go to his second.

The Hogyoku itself grants regen and has a mind of its own, so logically the Hogyoku can regenerate on its own. There are probably scans of it doing so, but I'm too tired rn to look but Arcker might have them.

I need to see that.

Look over the past page of debate. Its about the Edo Tensei, and how Aizen being a spirit would react in a similar way.

Edo's have been put under genjutsu example Edo-Itachi.

That was sarcasm. You didn't dispute the idea that limbo even using jutsu (let alone susanoo) is out of character, and is thus tantamount to fannon.

If this is out of character, doesn't Aizen feel lonely and want to lose? That means he doesn't to alot of the things you're arguing and simply observes. Lesser clones have used the originals jutsu including sunsanoo plus Storm has them all using perfect Susanoo's

Incorrect. Aizen can evolve cosmic awareness naturally as apart of his evolutions (as he did in canon). Aizen having knowledge is thus irrelevant to the Hogyoku's capability to spontaneously give him that ability, as it can already do so naturally.

He would because the Hogyoku reads his heart and decides what he wants, by then he's gonna have 5 Sunanoo's on his head.

Edit: The Hogyoku can also read minds, ND determine the hearts of those around it, so you can argue for Aizen having knowledge.

He doesn't utilize this so no.

Physical chakra manifestation ≠ Physical orb. An esoteric energy becoming tangible isn't the same as an actual object. How were they Physical as well inside of Madara's body?

Both are tangible things, I don't see your point. TB become Physical Chakra manifestations outside of his body.

Check soul physiology for the absorption resistances.

I asked for the Hogyoku having this.

Aizen in base is already stronger than Madara, even before evolutions. Check the AP sections. Hogyoku Regens any damage it takes given how it regenerated from Mugetsu, and thus has mid godly.

A stronger Aizen, not this one.

Out of character for S06P madara, who never used susanoo in that form.

So Aizen wants to lose?

The Hogyoku took him from 5-C to 4-A in one transformation, and also took him from 4-A to 3-C by just sitting on his ass. Literally billions of times stronger in terms of a pure VS wiki ap scale. That's the kind of evolution the Hogyoku is capable.

Does he get stronger just sitting there? Or does he need to get to the next form to do so.

Over the course of a short fight, Aizen becomes too durable to damage and just one shots.

I gave you multiple examples. Mugetsu, Yhwach crushing a hole in Aizens chest where the Hogyoku is, Getting incinerate from the inside out and being reduced to nothing by Kisuke's wrist seals (forcing Aizen to create a cocoon around the literal nothingness that was his body as it reformed). All of these things effected the Hogyoku (due to being in Aizen's body) and as such, shows it can regen, which is also explicitly outlined on profile:

Different Aizen. He also wasn't reduced to nothing, the Hogyoku could have tanked it.

"Regeneration (Mid-Godly - Aizen and the Hōgyoku itself can quickly regenerate from attacks such as Mugetsu or any attack within The Soul Society[63][64]), The Hogyoku reforms in the same way Aizen's body does.

Not the same Aizen.

Madara has nothing in his kit that can do anything to the Hogyoku. Stealing it will only get him killed like Gin (Which will force Aizen to evolve and one shot him).

Not with 5 Susanoo's on him or if he destroys it.

Also, why should I grant that Madara is even capable of destroying the Hogyoku? Reality Warping, fate hax, Aizen just evolving and teleporting all make destroying it an uphill battle (Ignoring the fact he's not even capable of destroying it).

Because the Hogyoku is weaker than this Aizen and his evolution takes time as it did with Gin. I do not know how it has Fate hax btw as it's stated to grant a wish.

 

[Arcker123]

Edo's have been put under genjutsu example Edo-Itachi.

It's just a weakness exclusive to infinite Tsukuyomi then. IT explicitly failed to work on them.

If this is out of character, doesn't Aizen feel lonely and want to lose? That means he doesn't to alot of the things you're arguing and simply observes. Lesser clones have used the originals jutsu including sunsanoo plus Storm has them all using perfect Susanoo's

You're misinterpreting. Aizen has contradictory wishes. He wants to become a god, whilst also wanting to be a normal soul reaper. The only reason the Hogyoku allowed Aizen to lose was because he found someone who could understand his heart (Ichigo), and the Hogyoku acted upon his subconscious. TLDR, a bunch of plot specific jumbo that would never apply here.

Aizen had those same feelings throughout the entire story, and he fought people.

I'll take your concession on not having any scans of Limbo using jutsu or susanno. It's out of character for them to do that.

He would because the Hogyoku reads his heart and decides what he wants, by then he's gonna have 5 Sunanoo's on his head.

Show me the scan of Limbo using Susanoo. Stop arguing that Madara is gonna do things he never did in story.

He doesn't utilize this so no.

What are you talking about? Aizen utilized this to manipulate the whole story. Read the scans in the profile.

Both are tangible things, I don't see your point. TB become Physical Chakra manifestations outside of his body.

Physical chakra manifestations ≠ Physical object. You can use esoteric absorption on one, not the other, because one is made of the esoteric energy, and the other isn't. Prove it can absorb Physical things that aren't made of chakra or concede this.

I asked for the Hogyoku having this.

The Hogyoku has soul physiology. It's comprised of countless Shinigami souls and Soul King fragments. It possesses their resistances.

Besides, The Hogyoku is apart of Aizen's body, he'd have to get past Aizen's body's resistance first, which he can't.

A stronger Aizen, not this one.

Aizen has this same abilities in base with the Hogyoku. These abilities are inherent to the Hogyoku, and he has them in all of his keys with it (which includes this one).

So Aizen wants to lose?

I'll take your concession on it being out of character if you don't bother to respond.

Does he get stronger just sitting there? Or does he need to get to the next form to do so.

Yes, he got stronger by sitting there. The Hogyoku's ability to evolve Aizen includes, but is not limited to the transformations we saw in deicide.

Different Aizen. He also wasn't reduced to nothing, the Hogyoku could have tanked it.

Do you realize why we have the Hogyoku powers in a separate tabber than the ones for his fusions? It's because those Hogyoku abilities are inherent to it, and Aizen has them in all of his keys.

You're just misreading the profile.

Also he was reduced to nothing. The cocoon formed around Aizen because his body was reduced to nothing, and began reforming as a purple goo, which then rematerialized as Aizen as he was evolving.

Not the same Aizen.

This is a reading comprehension error. Aizen has all of the Hogyoku powers in his base key.

Not with 5 Susanoo's on him or if he destroys it.

You've failed to prove Limbo use Susano'o in character, or even show how madara gets past mid godly.

Because the Hogyoku is weaker than this Aizen

Headcanon you could never prove. It has all of the same abilities it does in that tabber in every key. It's its own tabber for a reason.

and his evolution takes time as it did with Gin.

It takes a miniscule amount of time. Aizen evolved in a couple pages after the Hogyoku was removed from his body and all of his cells were eroded.

I do not know how it has Fate hax btw as it's stated to grant a wish

We have profiles for a reason. I suggest you take more time reading them.

 

[Arcker123]

Where does he have info analysis in his physiology? He adapts to something after its already taken effect not before, not only that it takes a little while before he's adapted. If Aizen achieve's his dreams (which the Infinite Tsukiyomi does) then the Hogyoku will not do anything.

You haven't given any argument as to why IT works on Aizen, or responded to any argument as to why it wouldn't.

Aizen has info analysis on his page, and on soul physiology, along with the Hogyokus power to read mind.

The Hogyoku's goal is to protect Aizen. It has its own sentience and is going to act in ways to protect him without him knowing (It evolved him to fight Ichigo in his monster form after getting mollywhopped of its own volition, proving it doesn't rely entirely on Aizen's cognition). This is in chapter 421. The Hogyoku will be aware Aizen is under an illusion and do everything in its power to break him out. Just because Aizen believes his wishes are accomplished, doesn't mean the Hogyoku will agree and just stop doing anything. We saw this happen in Aizens defeat in chapter 423 and 424. Aizen believed his wishes of becoming a god were granted, but the Hogyoku was acting against Aizen's beliefs grant him his true wish.

TlDR: IT doesn't work because the Hogyoku can act independently of Aizen's awareness and concious knowledge. Aizen can believe he's getting what he wants, but the Hogyoku would know better and evolve Aizen in a way to escape it. It's as Aizen said, the Hogyoku has a mind of its own.

Edit: The Hogyoku is also capable of evolving Aizen at will. Aizen began evolving as soon as the Hogyoku truly understood him, despite nothing happening prior (Chapter 401-403). This is further proven by the Hogyoku evolving him to 3-C from 4-A from doing nothing but sitting in Muken.

Here's where you're wrong, Shinji's reverses your perception and that's something Kabuto instantly adapted to. Madara's genjutsu is not only massively stronger than Shinji's, he can control you, control your perception of time, erase your memory and ect

Respond to the Reikaku point or you have no argument as to why GJ works here.

He's only allowed his first fusion. Aizen cannot go to his second.

He can evolve in ways beyond the fusions

Read chapter 401-403, Aizen is getting stronger before Chrysalis. TYBW proves this as well.

I need to see that.

Its written very explicitly on the profile.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Is this being closed? Because if the argument now is even if INFT works the Hogyoku will get him up there's nothing we can do here lol

 

[Arcker123]

Idk mane. Apparently I wasn't explicit enough when I said:

Madara has no wincon

2 pages ago

 

[Kidkinsey]

Ima warrior I couldn't just take that. It was fun sparing with u as always one of the better bleachers

 

[Arcker123]

Aizen just had a superior orb to Madara's 9

 

[RanaProGamer]

If this is a stomp, how would everyone feel about restricting Hogyoku for Aizen? We have seen him fight without being fused to it in SS arc

 

[Robo432343]

4 pages of arguing hogyoku aizen now we restricting it

 

[RanaProGamer]

4 pages of arguing hogyoku aizen now we restricting it

Precisely why I’m asking everyone if it’s a stomp or not. If not, we can add this cuz Aizen is a vote away from hitting Grace

 

[Arcker123]

Make a new thread for that. Aizen has been in grace for a long while, not just now.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Make a new thread for that. Aizen has been in grace for a long while, not just now.

Yeah, I was a bit inactive so I didn’t check the thread for a while

 

[RanaProGamer]

So, what does everyone say? If everyone is in agreement that this matchup is a stomp, I’ll make a new one

 

[Arcker123]

Madara has no actual wincon and just gets killed eventually. Everything that's been argued for him has been argued to not work, and he has no way past Aizen's numerous advantages. Even Naruto supporters like Kinsey and Shadow agreed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since almost everyone agrees this is a stomp, closing