The Supreme World of Darkness Upgrade thread: Peace at Long last

[Udlmaster]

Citizens of the World, the day of Reckoning is at hand.

For long enough, has rigorous testing been done, evaluations completed and calculations come to a close, and now, I bring you, Ladies, Gentlemen and those who layeth twixt.

The Ultimate World of Darkness Upgrade thread.

Introduction:​

For a very long time, I have been reading and gathering evidence, putting it to the test against one of World of Darkness' biggest skeptics, Ultima, and now, we have reached a conclusion.

This has been 3 years of Research in the making, and it all comes down to this.

​

The Changes:
Functionally, there will be no additional changes to the Powers and abilities of the current profiles. Some profiles will be reworked once this has passed, but that will be shown at another time, for now, let's focus on the revision.

First and foremost, the changes to the cosmology. After outlining the general tiers for each part of the World of Darkness Cosmology, found here, but for the purposes of the thread, I will reiterate for your reading pleasure.

The Main Physical Universe, the Tapestry, itself constitutes the entirety of Imagination within it;

"The Infinite Tapestry of creation encompasses everything — all that is, all that was, and all that can be imagined. For a frame of reference, mages place the Earth at the center of all creation, if only to understand the mysteries around it. Call this reality the physical world, if you like, or the real world, if you eschew all alternatives. We call it Earth." - The Infinite Tapestry, Page 9

The very imaginative people who inhabit the world of Darkness have thought up things such as the Tegmark Multiverses;

"Ensemble Space: Called the “Astral Plane” by Reality Deviants, Ensemble Spaces contain objects generated by human minds that lack the characteristics required to instantiate in material reality. This dimension includes fundamental mathematical objects: the Platonic “ultimate ensemble” predicted by mathematician Max Tegmark. The prevalence of “unreal” mathematical constructs gives rise to spatial distortions and subdimensions containing similar data sets, superstitiously referred to “conceptual realms,” “Epiphamies,” and “kingdoms of the gods.”" - Void Engineers, Revised, Page 56

The Universe itself, has many layers, all equally real, and even having contradictory ideas about how reality, humanity, or anything else came about.

"“I’ll give you a more relevant example. The first people: Were they Adam and Eve, a woman and a man, or were they the evolved descendents of apes?” “They were a woman and a man, as the Bible says.” “Correct. But they were also a multitude of ape descendents. The universe was made in seven days, on one level, but that same span of time was billions of years on another level. “Or consider the Angels of the Firmament. On some levels of reality they were conveying the life-giving breath of the Maker on a purely scientific level — they were, literally were, the process by which solar energy striking simple carbon molecules agitated them into forms of ever increasing complexity, until they became organic molecules, then primitive single-celled animals, then nucleated cells and so on, up to and including dogs, cats and humans. But at the same time they were crouching over the mouths of newly sculpted creatures of all types, breathing into their mouths to animate them.” “Are you talking about metaphor?” Gaviel chuckled. “Not yet, no. These contrary things really were simultaneously true in the young cosmos. It makes no sense to you because you’re used to living in this, the singular world. But once you accept the idea of the multiple world, it clears up a lot of the problems you humans have with faith, miracles, the Divine Architect—”" - Demon - The Fallen, Core, Page 26

Then we have constructs like the Fragured Cosmology, since this does not affect scaling, I will only go over the highlights here, once more, feel free to read the Up-to-date Cosmology blog here.

"Here, the truly weird aspects of the High Umbra begin to manifest: flying eyeballs, four-dimensional temples, Escherian landscapes, and snowing geometry… that sort of thing. In the Vulgate, you can find endless hallways filled with doors; rivers that speak in human languages; glass-tree forests where each leaf is a memory; places where the local reality takes on the flat, brightly colored, and caricatured appearance of an old-school comic strip… complete with word- and thought-balloons. Libraries where books that were never written can be found, philosophical paradises in which abstract theories like Communism and anarchy really do work the way their proponents say they should work… If you took the analogy of Plato’s cave (which actually exists here, by the way), where people see the shadows cast on the walls and believe it’s reality, the Vulgate is where the watchers start to turn away from the wall and begin to see the things casting those shadows."

Here is the Vulgate, where things like Plato's cave exists, just because he thought of it. Here thought becomes real, or as real as it can in a Realm of the truly Abstract.

A single spire represents the Tree of Life:



The Highest and last three residing in the Epiphanies:



The Tree of Life and it's Dark counterpart, being an Infinite Hierarchy of Infinite Refractions:

"Unlike the godly emanations of the Tree of Life, the energies of these
broken spheres reflect an array of dire personages, not a single
Unity whose glory holds infinite refractions."

You then reach into the Cosmic space, beyond even the Epiphamies in the Cosmology: the Horizon Realms.

And last, and definitely least: The Void, the end of Conception and Creation:

"The Void is the Absolute. Beyond it, one can go no further. Although dark mystics postulate a recursive path back to mortal existence by way of this cosmic attainment, that possibility remains theoretical, if only because proving it is impossible. The Void swallows everything. Those who manage to achieve this state of ultimate darkness cease to exist as anything a human mind can comprehend. Although, as the Fallen say, humanity is a speck in the cosmic sense of things, and the journey beyond human conception runs into… and perhaps through… the Void of all." - Book of the Fallen, Page 99

TL;DR:

Tapestry = Low 2-C, upwards of Low 1-A

Worlds of the Vulgate = Anywhere from Low 2-C to Low 1-A

Spires = 1-A hierarchy

Epiphamies = 1-A+ (Peak of the hierarchy)

Far Horizon = High 1-A

True Horizon = High 1-A

Void = 0


Those in Favour: Me , ShivaShakti, deonment, Rikimarox2, Setsuna_tenma, Teezar, Ultima_Reality, Apex_PredatorX, Qawsedf234, Starter_Pack
Elizhaa, KingPin0422

Those against:

 

[ShivaShakti]

Already agree with it as I already know the reasonings. Will prolly start work on Luci and Liliths profiles later

 

[DaReaperMan]

neck snaps

Oh, let me grab three people for this!

 

[deonment]

Agree with this, already read the reasons before this and well lemme grab the popcorn, the fireworks and the insanity of 3.8million men

 

[Rikimarox2]

Tier 0 WoD

It truly is the day of reckoning.

Anyways, after reading this Bible here, I agree with this.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Woah. Had no idea this was happening. Looks great, though.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Following for now, will comment later

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A single spire represents the Tree of Life:

The Tree of Life and it's Dark counterpart, being an Infinite Hierarchy of Infinite Refractions:

Better be safe than sorry, so, just to wipe away any possible counter-arguments here: It should be noted that, yes, while the Tree of Life has been shown to be comprised of ten levels of existence leading to divinity (Called the Sefirot), this doesn't actually contradict the idea that it is an infinite hierarchy of refractions of a single unity, since as said in the scan shown in the OP, this entire construction is purely symbolic and is just one of the many ways in which the Spires can be represented; for instance Infinite Tapestry shows an alternate representation that's comprised of six levels instead of ten, and also links them to the system of chakras, which has seven levels. And then the 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage just straight up confirms the Spires extend upwards into infinity.

And these higher levels of consciousness that the Spires embody also very much qualify for an hierarchy of qualitatively higher planes, since even the difference between Malkuth (The last of the ten sefirot, representing the Tapestry) and Yesod (The ninth, representing the Vulgate) is already described as being like the difference between the shadows cast upon a wall and what's projecting them

So yeah, needless to say, I agree with this.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's all I needed to hear, I agree!

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree to this. Another addition to the Boundless gang is always nice

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

What tier do each character get?

 

[DaringAttitude4]

What tier do each character get?

Here it is

AFAIK

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Here it is

AFAIK

Thank you

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain why Tapestry is Low 1-A?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain why Tapestry is Low 1-A?

based on it having a type 4 multiverse

 

[PrinceofPein]

Tapestry = Low 2-C, upwards of Low 1-A

Worlds of the Vulgate = Anywhere from Low 2-C to Low 1-A

How?

 

[InfiniteDay]

After reading through this monster, i'm going to be neutral currently. Better to see any counter-arguments for this, as it's a bit complex. I do lean towards agreeing though.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

based on it having a type 4 multiverse

Why is type4 multiverse Low 1-A?

 

[Udlmaster]

So yeah, needless to say, I agree with this.

Probably would have been wiser of me to bring those up as well.

Why is type4 multiverse Low 1-A?

Type 4s have been Low 1-A since Azrael from Discworld.

 

[Teezar]

I agree with everything.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I agree with this!

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Since this is a tier 0 upgrade thread, your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, which profile pages would be upgraded to what?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Since this is a tier 0 upgrade thread, your input would be appreciated here.

Even if this all checks out, my main issue with it is that its an unsourced upgrade.

Which is a problem for WoD and D&D upper tiers, but in this case if we're trying to make a new Tier 0 I would really need to see sources first.

EDIT: I have missed the blog with the sources. When I read through it I'll give an actual weigh in. My mistake there Udl.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay after reading the sources, yeah I'm in agreement with Udl's proposals. Though from what I saw the Tapestry looks more like 1-A rather than Low 1-A, though I see why Udl went with the safer option for it.

Though I'd like a bigger overview of who scales to what level of the hierarchy.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay after reading the sources, yeah I'm in agreement with Udl's proposals. Though from what I saw the Tapestry looks more like 1-A rather than Low 1-A, though I see why Udl went with the safer option for it.

Though I'd like a bigger overview of who scales to what level of the hierarchy.

Generally, it's basically who can damage what.

It's why the Cosmology revision was more important than the Character revision (coming soon TM).

Suffice to say, it's not longer me working on WoD anymore either. There's Kira, Ultima, among others who are working on it now.

 

[Arceus0x]

on a somewhat unrelated note, can anyone just summarize what is WoD? i like to know about existing tier 0 verses

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

on a somewhat unrelated note, can anyone just summarize what is WoD? i like to know about existing tier 0 verses

A tabletop game about humanity being pawns to supernatural creatures. Vampire have an illumanity like organisation. Their is a super mega corporation that serves the spirit of entropy which seeks the destroyed gaia. Werewolves are guardians of gaia but failed at their jobs. There is also the fae who can be pretty cruel. They abduct and enslave people and when these people escape they become changeling.

 

[Antvasima]

Even if this all checks out, my main issue with it is that its an unsourced upgrade.

Which is a problem for WoD and D&D upper tiers, but in this case if we're trying to make a new Tier 0 I would really need to see sources first.

EDIT: I have missed the blog with the sources. When I read through it I'll give an actual weigh in. My mistake there Udl.

Thank you for helping out.

@LordGriffin1000 @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @QuasiYuri

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Elizhaa]

The tiers seem fine, from what I read.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I am kind of not good with higher tiers, but...

This seems fine.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I can't really give a valid response due to not being good with tier 1 stuff in general. I'm not saying I disagree but I can't really agree either, sorry.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the replies. This seems to likely have been accepted then. It seems safest to wait a bit longer for more input though.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @KingPin0422

What do you think about this?

 

[KingPin0422]

Hmm... yeah, everything checks out, I'd say. I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It can probably be applied then, but let's wait a bit longer for more comments to make certain.

 

[Teezar]

Better be safe than sorry, so, just to wipe away any possible counter-arguments here: It should be noted that, yes, while the Tree of Life has been shown to be comprised of ten levels of existence leading to divinity (Called the Sefirot), this doesn't actually contradict the idea that it is an infinite hierarchy of refractions of a single unity, since as said in the scan shown in the OP, this entire construction is purely symbolic and is just one of the many ways in which the Spires can be represented; for instance Infinite Tapestry shows an alternate representation that's comprised of six levels instead of ten, and also links them to the system of chakras, which has seven levels. And then the 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage just straight up confirms the Spires extend upwards into infinity.

And these higher levels of consciousness that the Spires embody also very much qualify for an hierarchy of qualitatively higher planes, since even the difference between Malkuth (The last of the ten sefirot, representing the Tapestry) and Yesod (The ninth, representing the Vulgate) is already described as being like the difference between the shadows cast upon a wall and what's projecting them

So yeah, needless to say, I agree with this.

Since ultima agrees I thought it would have been enough since his like the teir 1 and 0 expert on this platform.

 

[Antvasima]

It is not enough with just him agreeing to something. We need others to verify as well.