The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

I don't mind if your modified definition text is applied, as it seems to be an improvement. I am just uncertain if it is technically mathematically accurate to keep immeasurable lifting strength, and if it is a problem for us in that case.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"Immeasurable: Objects that exceed any quantification of mass, belonging to some qualitatively greater state of existence than 3-dimensional ones."

weight is the same regardless of dimensions, so saying it's "in relation to 3-D entities" isn't really accurate.

Is it alright to use 3-dimensionality as a standard for this specific definition?

 

[Omnificence]

So, now what? Are we still trying to figure out what to do with the Irrelevant shtick?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should get rid of irrelevant lifting strength and redefine the irrelevant speed, but DontTalk is busy with exams IRL and Ultima also seems to have had limited time for this forum lately.

 

[Vietthai96]

Irrelevant Lifting Strength is the result of the way we define the power back then, as we think that character beyond all kind and concept of dimension can lift the amount of weight that beyond all kind of dimensional hierarchy, thus the concept of lifting is irrelevant to them. But now that not how it work because:
1. exceed infinite 3d mass mean they already immeasurable by all mean, so irrelevant rating is redundant
2. concept of lifting is kinda a poor reasoning, and now character need to lift something to qualify, if they are not lifting anything, they will have no rating

So, irrelevant lifting strength should be nuke, the rating itself is too irrelevant and redundant

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I think that we have a consensus regarding that already.

@KingPin0422

Can you remind me about our other conclusions here please?

 

[KingPin0422]

Let's see... besides Irrelevant Lifting Strength which we have agreed to axe, there's:

• Irrelevant Speed: The rating is being considered for either redefinition or outright removal. We are leaning toward the former as of now, but let's see what Ultima and DontTalk have to say about it, if anything.
• Transduality: Type 1 will be cut due to no one really having it outside of characters from one verse (who shouldn't even have it, IMO). Types 2 and 3 will be merged because the latter is just a more exclusive version of the former and we already merged types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation to fit the new tiering system. Type 4 appears to still be undecided.
• Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Types 1 and 2 are going to become a single type for the same reason as with types 2 and 3 of Transduality. Type 3, being an extension of type 2, will be removed entirely. I still think the two types left over should go from 0/1 to 1/2 for the sake of consistency, and I don't think it would take a lot of work, either: on the main namespace, only 127 profiles link to the power, and for user blogs, less than 50 pages link to it.

 

[Omnificence]

I mean, I've seen Immeasurable as a synonym for Absolute Strength and Absolute Lifting on the Superpower wiki, so I guess that works.

 

[Omnificence]

Let's see... besides Irrelevant Lifting Strength which we have agreed to axe, there's:

• Irrelevant Speed: The rating is being considered for either redefinition or outright removal. We are leaning toward the former as of now, but let's see what Ultima and DontTalk have to say about it, if anything.

Well, I think we should try to rename it. You see, beings with Immeasurable Speed can travel at immeasurable speeds can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly. They're speed cannot be measured as they can move beyond linear time, and given that Speed = Distance and Time (S = D/T), if Time is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied

On the other hand, users with speed above that transcend both levels of speed infinitely and absolutely, and the logical limits and boundaries of speed as a concept. They are beyond and qualitatively superior to all concepts of speed and the dimensions of time and space and are capable of performing movement beyond infinite dimensions of time due to transcending the very concepts of movement itself.

 

[Vietthai96]

Name is not that relevant, what relevant is the definition and description of the power itself

 

[Omnificence]

Name is not that relevant, what relevant is the definition and description of the power itself

Well, you already have this:

Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves.

However, I do suppose you could tweak it a little and add more to it. Maybe you'd like to add some of the info I previously listed in this thread about this level of speed if you want?

 

[Omnificence]

Also, I was gonna suggest that maybe we should separate the different kinds of speed such as attack, reaction, and travel speed on character pages like this:

Attack Speed:

Reacton Speed:

Travel Speed:

I came up with this idea based upon the profile layout on DebatesJungle. I personally think this is more organized and would differentiate the different traits of a character related to speed.

But that's just me.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, I was gonna suggest that maybe we should separate the different kinds of speed such as attack, reaction, and travel speed on character pages like this:

Attack Speed:

Reacton Speed:

Travel Speed:

I came up with this idea based upon the profile layout on DebatesJungle. I personally think this is more organized and would differentiate the different traits of a character related to speed.

But that's just me.

no, no, we don't do that here, if character have different reaction and combat speed from normal speed then we with listed more detail. If it is not then by default all speed is equal

 

[Omnificence]

no, no, we don't do that here, if character have different reaction and combat speed from normal speed then we with listed more detail. If it is not then by default all speed is equal

It was technically meant for that. I didn't mean apply it to every character profile on the wiki; just if they had different types of speeds.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's see... besides Irrelevant Lifting Strength which we have agreed to axe, there's:

• Irrelevant Speed: The rating is being considered for either redefinition or outright removal. We are leaning toward the former as of now, but let's see what Ultima and DontTalk have to say about it, if anything.
• Transduality: Type 1 will be cut due to no one really having it outside of characters from one verse (who shouldn't even have it, IMO). Types 2 and 3 will be merged because the latter is just a more exclusive version of the former and we already merged types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation to fit the new tiering system. Type 4 appears to still be undecided.
• Beyond-Dimensional Existence: Types 1 and 2 are going to become a single type for the same reason as with types 2 and 3 of Transduality. Type 3, being an extension of type 2, will be removed entirely. I still think the two types left over should go from 0/1 to 1/2 for the sake of consistency, and I don't think it would take a lot of work, either: on the main namespace, only 127 profiles link to the power, and for user blogs, less than 50 pages link to it.

Okay. Thank you for the summary.

Also, everybody who are not staff or retired staff, please stop responding to this thread unless you have something extremely important to say.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The rating is being considered for either redefinition or outright removal. We are leaning toward the former as of now, but let's see what Ultima and

For the matter, I still maintain that Irrelevant Speed should be removed, and Immeasurable kept open-ended instead. If are to keep it, then ideally we'd have to make it an alternate category that's moreso "adjacent" to the normal levels but not necessarily inferior or superior to any of them, like Omnipresence is, but I frankly can't see much point to that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, an alternate category for encompassing all of time at once seems fine to me, so we try to not leave any gaps in different types of definitions.

Or what do you mean with open-ended exactly? How do you wish to modify our immeasurable speed tier?

 

[Vietthai96]

Don't tell me we make Immeasurable into type or level like sonic speed range and ftl speed range like MHS and MFTL, etc..??

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ultima means that we should either merge immeasurable and our new definition of irrelevant speed into one single rating, or make irrelevant speed into a separate category that is more a state of being than a speed, similarly to omnipresence. However, it would be good if he can come up with a new text/wording for the immeasurable speed definition, if we are going with the first approach.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, an alternate category for encompassing all of time at once seems fine to me, so we try to not leave any gaps in different types of definitions.

Or what do you mean with open-ended exactly? How do you wish to modify our immeasurable speed tier?

I think that Ultima means that we should either merge immeasurable and our new definition of irrelevant speed into one single rating, or make irrelevant speed into a separate category that is more a state of being than a speed, similarly to omnipresence. However, it would be good if he can come up with a new text/wording for the immeasurable speed definition, if we are going with the first approach.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Or what do you mean with open-ended exactly? How do you wish to modify our immeasurable speed tier?

Basically make it so all it accomodates for all movement that's superior to linear time, pretty much. As said before, being completely unbound by the concept and still operating by some higher form of it are impossible to linearly compare, and one may be either higher or lower than the other depending on the verse, so, don't see much purpose for a whole speed rating based around relative things.

 

[Vietthai96]

Basically make it so all it accomodates for all movement that's superior to linear time, pretty much. As said before, being completely unbound by the concept and still operating by some higher form of it are impossible to linearly compare, and one may be either higher or lower than the other depending on the verse, so, don't see much purpose for a whole speed rating based around relative things.

I'm fine with this, so we nuke Irrelevant speed and change Immeasurable speed description, Just..............nuke Immeasurable speed, Ultima

 

[Antvasima]

Basically make it so all it accomodates for all movement that's superior to linear time, pretty much. As said before, being completely unbound by the concept and still operating by some higher form of it are impossible to linearly compare, and one may be either higher or lower than the other depending on the verse, so, don't see much purpose for a whole speed rating based around relative things.

Okay. That seems fine to me as well, but I would appreciate if you write a draft for a modified Speed page instruction text regarding this.

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay. That seems fine to me as well, but I would appreciate if you write a draft for a modified Speed page instruction text regarding this.

Basically make it so all it accomodates for all movement that's superior to linear time, pretty much. As said before, being completely unbound by the concept and still operating by some higher form of it are impossible to linearly compare, and one may be either higher or lower than the other depending on the verse, so, don't see much purpose for a whole speed rating based around relative things.

Should we improve the description of Immeasurable speed in Further Explanations section???. The thread about Blazblue Immeasurable speed show that there is some holes in how we qualify Immeasurable speed

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the current definitions for immeasurable speed are fine. Ultima and/or DontTalk just need to expand on them to include the new version of irrelevant speed as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, to get back to this once again.

I think that the current definitions for immeasurable speed are fine. Ultima and/or DontTalk just need to expand on them to include the new version of irrelevant speed as well.

Does something need to be added?
In my understanding, the agreement at this point is just to delete Irrelevant speed and have everything be Immeasurable, right?
If so, wouldn't the irrelevant speed stuff at least meet the requirements for Immeasurable speed anyways? Like, if something is currently irrelevant but can't even replicate immeasurable speed stuff then it probably shouldn't have been irrelevant, right? Given that it's a straight-up higher speed level.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, an alternate category for encompassing all of time at once seems fine to me, so we try to not leave any gaps in different types of definitions.

Or what do you mean with open-ended exactly? How do you wish to modify our immeasurable speed tier?

Basically make it so all it accomodates for all movement that's superior to linear time, pretty much. As said before, being completely unbound by the concept and still operating by some higher form of it are impossible to linearly compare, and one may be either higher or lower than the other depending on the verse, so, don't see much purpose for a whole speed rating based around relative things.

Okay. That seems fine to me as well, but I would appreciate if you write a draft for a modified Speed page instruction text regarding this.

See here for further information regarding what I was referring to.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What Ultima's point is concerned I think the current definition covers it. Of course "superior to linear time" is vague when just said like that, but if you are superior in a manner relevant for our speed tiering, I think you should be able to meet the current immeasurable requirements. (Which I would summarize as being able to freely move forwards or backwards across at least one axis of time and, if reactions/combat speed are included, being able to react to an attack that "strikes backwards in time" i.e. hits before it is launched.)

As for the extending throughout time thing... Well, since the character would be existing in all time periods simultaneously one can say they meet the forward/backwards movement thing in a sense. Just the reactions criteria is possibly not met.
There are multiple possible solutions for that. Since it's probably a very rare case, maybe we can take the simplest and just list it as Immeasurable travel speed or something (i.e. movement speed, but not reaction speed). If so, a short note added to one of the explaining paragraphs should suffice.
Otherwise, we possibly would need to make it a separate thing after all, as it wouldn't be wise to drop the reaction speed requirement. On one hand because our combat speed, in general, includes the ability to react at the speed, but also because it's one of the clearest distinctions to timetravel stuff.

 

[Vietthai96]

I also think a long time ago about we should differentiate travel speed with combat speed even at Immeasurable level. Like a character did move backward and forward time with sheer speed, but never combat while in the middle of using that speed, only combat after they move to their "destination"

 

[Antvasima]

What Ultima's point is concerned I think the current definition covers it. Of course "superior to linear time" is vague when just said like that, but if you are superior in a manner relevant for our speed tiering, I think you should be able to meet the current immeasurable requirements. (Which I would summarize as being able to freely move forwards or backwards across at least one axis of time and, if reactions/combat speed are included, being able to react to an attack that "strikes backwards in time" i.e. hits before it is launched.)

As for the extending throughout time thing... Well, since the character would be existing in all time periods simultaneously one can say they meet the forward/backwards movement thing in a sense. Just the reactions criteria is possibly not met.
There are multiple possible solutions for that. Since it's probably a very rare case, maybe we can take the simplest and just list it as Immeasurable travel speed or something (i.e. movement speed, but not reaction speed). If so, a short note added to one of the explaining paragraphs should suffice.
Otherwise, we possibly would need to make it a separate thing after all, as it wouldn't be wise to drop the reaction speed requirement. On one hand because our combat speed, in general, includes the ability to react at the speed, but also because it's one of the clearest distinctions to timetravel stuff.

I think that it seems safest to somehow include the new definitions for Irrelevant speed that @Ultima_Reality came up with in this and the preceding discussion in our Immeasurable speed requirements, rather than just leave them as they are.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmmm... then I might need Ultima to clarify the standards he intends once more.
I think I get the idea of saying all characters are superior to linear time speed and stuff, however "superior" of course will require a more specific definition. After all, being superior to spacetime of some world doesn't necessarily mean superior in a speed-like sense.

My idea is to say that a character is sufficiently superior to linear time if they can be guaranteed to be able to do the moving freely throughout time and reacting to negative time attacks stuff. If they can't do that they don't really sound that superior to me. At best they might be not comparable to characters with regular speed.
I'm open to other suggestions of "superior", though, if it paints a clear picture of why and how that definition would impact fights.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I will send a PM to Ultima.

 

[DontTalkDT]

In the meantime let me get to the topics aside from Irrelevant Speed to hopefully get this finished.

So for beyond-dimensionsal existence I posted this draft a while back. Aside from the minor question of whether we do 0/1 as type numbers or 1/2, the question remained which acausality we should use. I initially suggested type 4, as that type makes the most sense on paper (just the resistances it gives don't), but Type 1 was suggested and I am ok with that as the least denominator.

For Transduality: If we axe Type 1, we probably should reformulate Type 2 so that Type 1 is technically included. Otherwise, we might end up with a gap in the future.
Honestly, personally, I'm ok with just fusing all types. One could make a separation between transduality via a system that allows contradictions and transduality in a system with many-valued logic, yes. However, I think few fictions are actually very explicit about the nature of logic in that sense. And ultimately one could argue that being in a contradictory state or a state of wholeness could also be seen as a separate other state in a multi-valued logic system.
The effects of the two types wouldn't be all that different anyway, so I think throwing them together is fine.

Lifting Strength: Yeah, Irrelevant can go as soon as we can make a project to remove it from the tier 1s.

 

[Antvasima]

In the meantime let me get to the topics aside from Irrelevant Speed to hopefully get this finished.

So for beyond-dimensionsal existence I posted this draft a while back. Aside from the minor question of whether we do 0/1 as type numbers or 1/2, the question remained which acausality we should use. I initially suggested type 4, as that type makes the most sense on paper (just the resistances it gives don't), but Type 1 was suggested and I am ok with that as the least denominator.

For Transduality: If we axe Type 1, we probably should reformulate Type 2 so that Type 1 is technically included. Otherwise, we might end up with a gap in the future.
Honestly, personally, I'm ok with just fusing all types. One could make a separation between transduality via a system that allows contradictions and transduality in a system with many-valued logic, yes. However, I think few fictions are actually very explicit about the nature of logic in that sense. And ultimately one could argue that being in a contradictory state or a state of wholeness could also be seen as a separate other state in a multi-valued logic system.
The effects of the two types wouldn't be all that different anyway, so I think throwing them together is fine.

Lifting Strength: Yeah, Irrelevant can go as soon as we can make a project to remove it from the tier 1s.

Thank you for helping out.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Pain_to12

What do you think about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with DDM.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It seems safest to wait a bit for further input before we proceed though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with DT
Irrelevant speed should go as well as lifting strength but he said something along the line if there are characters who have irrelevant speed but can’t replicate feats for immeasurable they shouldn’t have it in the first place.
Most characters with irrelevant speed have it because they are either 1A or H1A or tier 0 not because of any real speed feat so yeah you are going to have a pickle on your hand

 

[Elizhaa]

Thank you for helping out.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Pain_to12

What do you think about this?

Seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who provided input here.

It seems like @DontTalkDT's suggestions have been accepted so far then.

To start with, I would greatly appreciate if some of our staff members would be willing to go through all of the following pages and adjust them so they fit with DontTalk's new draft for the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page, after it has replaced the current version.

Pages that link to "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-remains-of-the-tiering-revision-part-3.126818/post-4477389