The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 2

[KingPin0422]

This is to be continued from here. And yes, I have permission to post this thread, as you will be able to see near the end of the other one.

Introduction​

In the wake of the tiering system revision, performed about a year and a half ago, not only did a handful of characters have to be readjusted to fit the new framework, but multiple powers and even a rating that appears on two scales were rendered outdated. Unfortunately, out of those, only Beyond-Dimensional Existence was given a revision, while the others were left to rot. This project aims to rectify these neglected aspects of our system, bringing much needed revisions to them, including ones not necessarily tied to the aforementioned system revision.

The Topics to be Discussed​

Because this thread succeeds another thread (linked above), a synopsis of the topics and agreements is needed, and furthermore, as soon as all loose ends are tied up regarding the discussion phase, we will need to organize a method for applying the changes, which will require careful planning and coordination in order to minimize errors. Without further ado, we shall open up the second phase of this discussion with the topic of one certain rating that appears on two of our statistic scales.

Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength​

The Irrelevant ratings for speed and lifting strength are currently regarded as ratings specific to physical movement or strength that reaches a 1-A scale or greater. This is quite obviously a remainder of the era when 1-A was treated as a special tier that exceeded any scientific scale and could not even be approximated by our comprehension, and it got its name from the idea that speed and strength simply do not matter to 1-A characters on any level. Now that we have abandoned that notion in favor of a mathematically grounded interpretation of "beyond dimensions," we have agreed to reevaluate the meaning of this rating.

After a good amount of discussion between multiple knowledgeable members, we reached the conclusion that the "Irrelevant" rating as a whole is simply unnecessary. There is never really a point where any statistic is completely inapplicable, as the name "Irrelevant" would suggest, and although multiple new definitions were considered for Irrelevant Speed, none of them gained significant traction:

• DontTalk's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as movement over something that is superior to an infinite number of time dimensions.
• Aeyu's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as movement over an "area" that encompasses or exceeds any "distance" or "time" on any level within a given formal system.
• Antvasima's proposal, wherein "Irrelevant Speed" is defined as existing in an eternal "now" that encompasses any "then" or "will be" on any level within the verse.

Unless the staff are convinced to reconsider these propositions and accept one of them, Irrelevant Speed will cease to exist. As for Irrelevant Lifting Strength, all parties involved agreed to remove it from the lifting strength scale, although relatively little discussion was had regarding it.

Conceptual Manipulation​

Not only is the distinction between "false" and "true" Platonic concepts an arbitrary decision, but it has fueled the misconception that Plato's theory of Forms is inherently 1-A regardless of any other context (or lack thereof), leading to innumerable attempts to upgrade several verses based on vague, poorly justified "evidence" of Platonic Forms being in the verse. As such, the participants from part 1 all have agreed to merge types 2 and 1 for Conceptual Manipulation and renumber the other types accordingly.

However, we have not stopped there. We are currently looking into divorcing the types of this power from Greek philosophy and generalizing them to broader categories. The short of it is that there are other schools of thought that follow certain attributes not unlike the concepts proposed by Plato, yet are still remarkably different from his particular philosophy, such as Jungian archetypes and Kantian noumena. Plato's Forms inspired both of these definitions of concepts, and Jungian psychology also borrows some aspects of Kant's philosophy. What all three have in common, however, is that they describe abstract and universal concepts that govern the fundamental principles of the universe, lay beyond the reach of consciousness, and exist independently of the objects that participate in these concepts.

This only pertains to type 1 concepts, but I think one can understand the core of the argument: that each level of abstract concepts can take on many different forms and is not strictly limited to Platonic or Aristotelian (or "Lesser Realist") philosophy. We already allow leeway in how concepts fit into our schema, so this revision will most likely not lead to anyone gaining or losing Conceptual Manipulation, but this would officially eliminate equalizing anything that represents an independent, abstract, and universal concept to a Platonic Form, for example. You can see a draft for the new Conceptual Manipulation page here.

Transduality​

As with Conceptual Manipulation, the division between "false" and "true" general transduality will be eliminated. Additionally, specific transduality should be removed simply because of the fact that it is obscure: to wit, there is only one verse with characters that currently have type 1 transduality, and it does not have many characters that have it, either. The only type that is still up in the air is type 4, as it has been suggested to remove it as well, which would ultimately leave Transduality as a typeless power if accepted, but someone wants to prove that it is needed using examples from at least three verses - they simply have yet to do so.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence​

Yes, this power will be revised again. In the previous thread, it was decided to rename the power to "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" to accommodate the changes to 1-A and above. However, I would like to make an argument for possibly doing to types 1 and 2 here what we are going to do to types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation and to types 2 and 3 for Transduality, as well as removing type 3. Regarding the former, it seems to be no different from the other two cases I mentioned: one is inherently 1-A, the other is applied to lower tiers. As for the latter, well, it's just type 2 but High 1-A (or 0). It does not seem useful at all.

Also, the "Possible Uses" section ought to be updated, since the Irrelevant ratings (as discussed above) will most likely be removed, but I also think that the whole thing with overlapping with stuff like Acausality and Nonexistent Physiology should be there and not in the description for type 0 Beyond-Dimensional Existence.

Conclusion​

• Irrelevant Speed and Lifting Strength are going to be removed.
• Types 1 and 2 for Conceptual Manipulation will be consolidated, and the types in general may be modified to not strictly follow Greek philosophy.
• Types 2 and 3 for Transduality will be consolidated, and type 1 will be erased. The jury is still out on type 4.
• Given the above two, types 1 and 2 for Beyond-Dimensional Existence should be consolidated. Type 3 also needs to go. The "Possible Uses" section deserves an update.

Significant amounts of discussion between knowledgeable members is necessary to move these revisions forward. Once conclusions are reached, these members should then coordinate an effort to edit all of the affected pages, doing their best not to make any mistakes, or fixing them if they do.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

not a staff but a suggestion. Shouldn`t there be some examples for each type of concept manipulation in the new draff. It will be easier to explain it with examples

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf I feel like Transduality as a whole should be removed.

Still agree with first 2 issues, neutral on last.

 

[Regidian]

Tbf I feel like Transduality as a whole should be removed.

Still agree with first 2 issues, neutral on last.

I personally don't think that transduality should be removed since some verse really use it somewhat correctly for their being. But it need to be tell what he do here, seem like praticaly nobody know what that do in vsbattle.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. The entire idea with a restarted thread was that you would provide a summary to the discussion and conclusions so far. I am not sure if that has been properly done here.

Anyway, @Elizhaa @Schnee_One @Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Duedate8898 @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dino_Ranger_Black @DontTalkDT @Sera_EX @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mr._Bambu @Ogbunabali @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234 and @AKM sama would you be willing to continue to help out here please?

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. There seems to be summaries provided. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm ok with transduality becoming typeless I think. One could consider renaming it to non-duality and have non-duality itself as one type and transduality as another, but maybe that's an issue for another thread. In any case, I agree we need to explain what exactly it does in battle. My opinion on that is that it is transcendence (in a tiering system like sense) + whatever the verse specifies. Nothing more.... well, maybe some limited resistance to logic manipulation.
Guess I'm ok with removing irrelevant speed.
Also ok with merging type 1 & 2 of concepts. Neutral on renaming the types. Names are just names. At best they state what we were inspired by. Personally, I never viewed it as equalizing things to Plato's ideas.
Aspatio-Temporal Existence sounds good. I would be ok with making this typeless.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf if transduality is a mere transcendance (which is something I believe too), it should be a justification of tier rather than a power.

Also I think it's better to rename the concepts by how they are like in the draft. While most experienced users do know that it isn't limited to Plato and Aristote; a awful lot think that because it has this name, it is the same.
I mean, not like we lost everything with this, and it helps understanding them just by name.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP is looking well organized as well as DT's input, but as I already said; I do not think I will be much help hear given how over my head the super high up tiers and abilities are.

 

[Regidian]

Tbf if transduality is a mere transcendance (which is something I believe too), it should be a justification of tier rather than a power.

Also I think it's better to rename the concepts by how they are like in the draft. While most experienced users do know that it isn't limited to Plato and Aristote; a awful lot think that because it has this name, it is the same.
I mean, not like we lost everything with this, and it helps understanding them just by name.

The transduality should be a thing case by case but yeah we can use it as just some tiering transcendance if we don't have better explaination in the verse, but at least it should add resistance to at least concept, to logic and add acausality type 5(since transcende concept of causality) i think. (Because if it was just a mere transcending of think like space/time it will doesn't need that much all the rest of duality even less does it Conceptualy)

 

[QuasiYuri]

The transduality should be a thing case by case but yeah we can use it as just some tiering transcendance if we don't have better explaination in the verse, but at least it should add resistance to at least concept, to logic and add acausality type 5(since transcende concept of causality) i think. (Because if it was just a mere transcending of think like space/time it will doesn't need that much all the rest of duality even less does it Conceptualy)

Meh, I'm neutral on it because of how NLF-ish it can be.

 

[Regidian]

Meh, I'm neutral on it because of how NLF-ish it can be.

For what? transcending a concept have praticaly always add resistance to it (people that transcende concept of death have résistance to death etc), acausality type 5 is the transcendance of concept of causality for what i understand, and logic well is because is a thing i have see for most of the transdual one i have see here.

And the cas by case depend like DT tell to what the verse explain or show about it

 

[QuasiYuri]

For what? transcending a concept have praticaly always add resistance to it (people that transcende concept of death have résistance to death etc), acausality type 5 is the transcendance of concept of causality for what i understand, and logic well is because is a thing i have see for most of the transdual one i have see here.

And the cas by case depend like DT tell to what the verse explain or show about it

Thing is, you would virtually have resistances to everything the lower plane has, which is technically the same as any transcendance so far.

 

[Everything12]

The problem I have with Transduality, and other such powers, is that when we give a character Transduality when they have evidence of it, we also give them Abilities and Powers that they haven't shown feats of under the logic that anyone who truly has Transduality must have these things even if they haven't shown feats of such.

I'm in agreement with merging Type 1 and 2 Concepts, their only difference is one is 1-A which doesn't seem relevant enough for a separate Type to me, and renaming them so people stop going "these Concepts are called Platonic so they should be this Type even without feats" is also something I agree with.

Irrelevant Lifting Strength being removed seems fine, and as for Speed I do think it should be changed not removed, as there are plenty of Characters whose movement far exceeds Immeasurable's ability to move through Time with Speed.

No clue about BDE, besides agreeing with the idea that any Type that's simply the Type below it but 1-A should be merged.

 

[Antvasima]

Everything12 makes sense to me. I would also prefer to change the definition of Irrelevant speed, rather than remove the statistic altogether.

 

[Regidian]

The problem I have with Transduality, and other such powers, is that when we give a character Transduality when they have evidence of it, we also give them Abilities and Powers that they haven't shown feats of under the logic that anyone who truly has Transduality must have these things even if they haven't shown feats of such.

It's why i ask about we should tell what it give at minimum(really minimum) and after tell it that it would be case by case.

Thing is, you would virtually have resistances to everything the lower plane has, which is technically the same as any transcendance so far.

I mean praticaly all the transdual are alredy 1-A without that and some transdual still get resistance to the same plane in some verse

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Wokistan @ByAsura @Damage3245 @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Starter_Pack @Mindovin @Jvando @Abstractions @SamanPatou @Antoniofer @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I will point out Transduality isnt mere "transcendence". Its derived from non duality which means to be above all distinctions, usually involving becoming "One" with all things and totality. It has its uses beyond simply tiering.

 

[Tago238]

I think the main issue with transduality is that it places importance on verses subscribing to a philosophy where distinctions are described via dualism, despite the fact that the idea of using multiple degrees of truth in descriptions of qualities like say, hotness, is a normal opinion. For the sake of verse equalisation it would be better if non-duality fell into a rewritten omnipresence or NEP esque page.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I think the main issue with transduality is that it places importance on verses subscribing to a philosophy where distinctions are defined via dualism, despite the fact that the idea of multiple degrees of truth existing in descriptions like say, hotness, is a normal opinion. For the sake of verse equalisation it would be better if non-duality fell into a rewritten omnipresence or NEP esque page.

Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously. Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold"

Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality"

 

[Tago238]

Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would he all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously. Duality pertains to distinction as a wjole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold"

Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality"

(I'm gonna mostly ignore the first sentence since that wasn't really what I was saying anyway, even though I could have made that argument considering the wiki definition of "transduality")

The problem in this argument is that transduality on the wiki is specifically described as standing "independent of or qualitatively beyond" a dual system, which includes things other than non duality as you describe it and, depending on how the description is interpreted, doesn't include it to begin with.

Even if it was the case that your definition was correct I would still have a point when I say duality doesn't necessarily mean a dichotomy/ opposites on different sides of a spectrum (although in practice it can be), as by definition duality explicitly refers to systems containing only two elements; the name would be confusing and the current requirement for evidence of a specifically binary system being transcended/rendered obsolete or whatever would be opposed to verse equalisation.

 

[Tago238]

"Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously"

I should clarify that this was not what I was arguing for, I was only saying that a transduality/ non-duality power would imply that to be beyond distinction said verses would have to follow a system of binary logic, and references to such do seem to be required in CRTs.

"Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold""

This is actually addressing my point but a duality does indeed usually refer to a system containing only two, diametrically opposed elements instead of two opposites on a spectrum (it can mean that in practice but I don't know why that's being assumed).

"Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality""

That wasn't really a point of contention but since you allude to it yourself twice I think it's fair for me to point out that the wiki explicitly states transduality to be existing "outside" or "qualitatively beyond" duality, not necessarily rendering those distinctions obsolete. If you wish to argue based on a different definition then the transduality page itself would have to be different, as it stands

 

[ShivaShakti]

"Thats.... Not really what transduality pertains to. It wouldnt be an "extra" degree of hotness beyond the norm, it would be all degrees of hotness as one simultaneously"

I should clarify that this was not what I was arguing for, I was only saying that a transduality/ non-duality power would imply that to be beyond distinction said verses would have to follow a system of binary logic, and references to such do seem to be required in CRTs.

"Duality pertains to distinction as a whole not just black and white reflections like "Hot or Cold""

This is actually addressing my point but a duality does indeed usually refer to a system containing only two, diametrically opposed elements instead of two opposites on a spectrum (it can mean that in practice but I don't know why that's being assumed).

"Honestly the name itself is quite misleading and id recommend changing the name to "Non-Duality""

That wasn't really a point of contention but since you allude to it yourself twice I think it's fair for me to point out that the wiki explicitly states transduality to be existing "outside" or "qualitatively beyond" duality, not necessarily rendering those distinctions obsolete. If you wish to argue based on a different definition then the transduality page itself would have to be different, as it stands

1. I mean its a baseline that all verses follow a form of logic or flow of reason. For it to not be the case you'd have to give evidence for that rather than the other way around.

2. This is just wrong simple as that. Duality is all encompassing over all distinction, the reductive "only two" description is a simplification for what duality pertains to, mainly addressing the primary exact opposites. The varying degrees between opposites aren't just thrown out the window like that. That much should be obvious.

3. Being "Beyond" or "Outside" duality inherently makes those distinctions obsolete. If you exist outside the confines of distinction, you yourself can not be distinguished or identified separately, thus rendering notions of duality irrelevant to your very existence.

 

[Tago238]

1. I mean its a baseline that all verses follow a form of logic or flow of reason. For it to not be the case you'd have to give evidence for that rather than the other way around.

2. This is just wrong simple as that. Duality is all encompassing over all distinction, the reductive "only two" description is a simplification for what duality pertains to, mainly addressing the primary exact opposites. The varying degrees between opposites aren't just thrown out the window like that. That much should be obvious.

3. Being "Beyond" or "Outside" duality inherently makes those distinctions obsolete. If you exist outside the confines of distinction, you yourself can not be distinguished or identified separately, thus rendering notions of duality irrelevant to your very existence.

Are you saying classical logic isn’t... logical? There is many valued/fuzzy logic and logic using dualism (which is what you seem to call a reduction), my point is that clear references to dualism aren’t required to describe a certain state (for example, if a verse references non dualism of the Advaita Vedanta variety that would just be omnipresence insofar as what is external to the self in maya is described).

Sure a character being beyond a duality would mean they can’t be described in terms of it, please provide an argument for why that’s always the same thing as being both sides of the duality at once because the page literally makes an argument to the contrary with the binary example.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Are you saying classical logic isn’t... logical? There is many valued/fuzzy logic and logic using dualism (which is what you seem to call a reduction), my point is that clear references to dualism aren’t required to describe a certain state (for example, if a verse references non dualism of the Advaita Vedanta variety that would just be omnipresence insofar as what is external to the self in maya is described).

Sure a character being beyond a duality would mean they can’t be described in terms of it, please provide an argument for why that’s always the same thing as being both sides of the duality at once because the page literally makes an argument to the contrary with the binary example.

1. Duality pertains to classical logic as well. I don't know why you bring many valued and non classical logic into the mix because its irrelevant. Classical logic still contains distinction which is what Duality pertains to. Also the Non-Dualism of Advaita Vedanta is no where near as simple as that. You became literally one with all things as Self is God and God is Self, and since all things have a Self, God encompasses them all. Its metaphyisical oneness and return to the ultimate reality. Saying its simple Omnipresence is very reductive.

2. If you encompass all dualities and extensions of dual systems you quite literally cannot be identified nor distguinished. If I were to describe a transdual being, I would be using reductive vocabulary for my words cannot come close to describing a being who encompasses all forms distinction. When you are all encompassing over distinction, this normally implies you are all encompassing over the systems used to define reality as well as the hierarchy of the universe. This is why we give higher tierings to beings who are all encompassing in this way (An example being The God Energy, and The Clear Light. The Clear Light contains the dichotomy of God and The Mother as illusory distinctions of itself in this state of complete oneness, making both distinctions irrelevant to its existence)

 

[Greatsage13th]

Isn't this a staff only thread....?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't this a staff only thread....?

Staff discussion threads are rarely truly staff only tbh. Even when it says it is.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Staff discussion threads are rarely truly staff only tbh. Even when it says it is.

Oh...i didn't notice.

 

[Greatsage13th]

1. Duality pertains to classical logic as well. I don't know why you bring many valued and non classical logic into the mix because its irrelevant. Classical logic still contains distinction which is what Duality pertains to. Also the Non-Dualism of Advaita Vedanta is no where near as simple as that. You became literally one with all things as Self is God and God is Self, and since all things have a Self, God encompasses them all. Its metaphyisical oneness and return to the ultimate reality. Saying its simple Omnipresence is very reductive.

2. If you encompass all dualities and extensions of dual systems you quite literally cannot be identified nor distguinished. If I were to describe a transdual being, I would be using reductive vocabulary for my words cannot come close to describing a being who encompasses all forms distinction. When you are all encompassing over distinction, this normally imples you are all encompassing over the systems used to define reality as well as the hierarchy of the universe. This is why we give higher tierings to beings who are all encompassing in this way (An example being The God Energy, and The Clear Light. The Clear Light contains the dichotomy of God and The Mother as illusory distinctions of itself in this state of complete oneness, making both distinctions irrelevant to its existence)

There are also some cases where they transcend many non-dualistic values that exists independently from any extensions of a dual system and either embody or unbound or transcend these values and the ones that exists above them on an incomprehensible scale. Such as the Wuji and Taiji

Which i agree with @ShivaShakti

 

[Starter_Pack]

This kind of goes over my head, like, by a lot. However, the summarization provided by KingPin, as well as the additional statement from DontTalk, allows me to make as much sense of this as I can, and I agree with the points everyone seems to have no problems with, removing Irrelevant Lifting Strength, renaming Beyond-Dimensional Existence to Aspatio-Temporal Existence, and combining and reclassifying the definition of Conceptual Manipulation to not confuse people on simply referring to the Platonic Form. (I think that's what's being referred to...)

I remain neutral to Irrelevant speed, but I'm leaning towards keeping it due to Antvasima and Everything's thoughts on it, even though I have no clue how to rationalize it. And it seems as if the concept of Transduality is still being discussed and no one has really touched on basically every other modification to BDE proposed by KingPin, so I have nothing really to say on this for the time being.

 

[Tago238]

My actual argument was subject to a miscommunication between me and ShivaShakti (which has now been cleared up on discord) however I do not feel the need to continue arguing on this particular thread as frankly the debate never related to 1-A power revisions in the first place. Issues concerning trans duality/non duality as a power or even issues concerning things like type 4 should, as ShivaShakti pointed out on discord, be solved in different threads.

 

[Antvasima]

This is an extremely important topic, so it should almost exclusively be staff only in order to keep on track and get anywhere. Regular members should only respond if they have something crucially relevant to say.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Irrelevant Strength: Should go. There's really no reason to keep it around
• Irrelevant Speed: I honestly feel like Immeasurable covers everything this speed does. I don't see a reason to keep it when Immeasurable can basically do the same thing
• CM: I honestly really like the changes. Though we probably have to note that a tier for such a thing would come from the universe in question rather than any generic rating.
• Transduality: Personally I'm for keeping Type 1 and combine 2/3. Type 4 I'm not sure on, because I don't really understand the philosophic base it comes from. But from what I do understand it can probably just be rolled into 2/3.
• Beyond Dimensional Existence: I'm fine with both the name change and making it more generic as a powerset rather than having tiers or levels.

 

[ShivaShakti]

• Irrelevant Strength: Should go. There's really no reason to keep it around
• Irrelevant Speed: I honestly feel like Immeasurable covers everything this speed does. I don't see a reason to keep it when Immeasurable can basically do the same thing
• CM: I honestly really like the changes. Though we probably have to note that a tier for such a thing would come from the universe in question rather than any generic rating.
• Transduality: Personally I'm for keeping Type 1 and combine 2/3. Type 4 I'm not sure on, because I don't really understand the philosophic base it comes from. But from what I do understand it can probably just be rolled into 2/3.
• Beyond Dimensional Existence: I'm fine with both the name change and making it more generic as a powerset rather than having tiers or levels.

Basically Type 4 comes from distinctions of "Many Valued" Logic.

So lets say you have these two values: True and False. Many Valued Logic would insert a third value that is neither true nor false, and is completely it's own entity that isn't connected to either. Not half true or half false, just it's own value. So you'd have True, False, and Unknown Value here. It would get into more complex systems and the existence of more Truth Values. This can extend into logic with infinite Truth Values and so on. An example of many valued logic would be being both Dual and Nondual simultaneously. It get's into non linear descriptors and eventually just gets too complex to even comprehend.

However, I personally believe the Transduality discussion should be reserved for a different thread. It's a complex topic on it's own already.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with Transduality needing its own thread. Even determining what it does is a debate in itself.

 

[KingPin0422]

An update to my views on Aspatio-Temporal Existence and Irrelevant Speed:

I am beginning to think that Aspatio-Temporal Existence should simply not have types at all. Type 1 is just type 0 plus transcendence, type 2 is just type 1 plus being 1-A in size, and type 3 is just type 2 but High 1-A or 0. These types are all redundant because they are distinguished only by being transcendent to some degree, even though transcendence says more about the size you have than it does about anything else related to your physiology. If one Low 1-C character is defined as simply being detached from 5-D spacetime, and you compare them to another Low 1-C character who is transcendent over 4-D spacetime, you would be unable to find any relevant ontological differences between the natures of their aspatio-temporal existences. As for types 2 and 3, well, they are literally just given for being a certain tier via size. They are not special and should not exist.

As for Irrelevant Speed, I have talked with a few people on Discord regarding this, including Ultima, and we are thinking that perhaps it can simply be redefined instead of totally erased. We have agreed that a better definition of Irrelevant Speed is that of a rating for characters to whom the concepts of space and time do not apply, i.e., characters who have Aspatio-Temporal Existence. To explain, speed is defined in terms of distance (space) and time, using the equation S=D/T. If D=∞ or T=0, then S=∞, which is indexed as Infinite Speed. Immeasurable Speed entails being able to move throughout time as easily as one can move throughout space, so S=D/T is no longer applicable at this point as distance and time would be interchangeable from your perspective. Irrelevant Speed is when distance/space and time are just completely ignored, thus rendering speed, well, irrelevant to you.

For the record, Irrelevant Speed probably cannot be compared to Immeasurable Speed. On paper, it would seem straightforward: the former is unbounded by the applications of space and time while the latter is not, so Irrelevant > Immeasurable. Indeed, if Irrelevant Speed is relative to a higher-dimensional spacetime than Immeasurable Speed, or perhaps even the same spacetime, then this absolutely would be the case. The thing is, an aspatio-temporal character is not always going to be stronger than a higher-dimensional character, or else we would have many more people in 1-A, so we should not assume that they will necessarily be faster, either. In fact, any fight between one character who is bound to spacetime and another character who is aspatio-temporal will likely be inconclusive regardless of AP if we lack evidence that one or both fighters can interact with each other.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. I also think that it is better to redefine irrelevant speed, although we need to explain it in an easy to understand manner in our Speed page.

 

[Sera_EX]

Are we really going to call it "Aspatio-Temporal Existence"...

Also...irrelevant speed is still nonsensical.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Are we really going to call it "Aspatio-Temporal Existence"...

Also...irrelevant speed is still nonsensical.

Nah, call it [Insert Complex Word] Existence.

 

[Antvasima]

Are we really going to call it "Aspatio-Temporal Existence"...

I would prefer a better title as well. Suggestions are very welcome.