- 10,866
- 12,234
Before the Tiering Revision 1-A was somewhat of a special tier due to being assumed to be beyond spacetime in general, which some people ascribed special properties to. As a result, various special 1-A categories were created. Since the tiering revision, Tier 1-A lost it's special status, due to not being beyond spacetime as a whole anymore, and hence these categories are in need of revision.
Many of these revisions were taken care of already. For example, were Immortality Type 10 and True-Godly Regeneration removed.
This thread is for debating how to revise the last categories that require updating.
The current definition of Irrelevant speed is
Irrelevant Speed should be redefined as:
Characters that were 1-A by the former tiering system were not only beyond spacetime but were usually also assumed to be beyond infinite-dimensional spacetime in particular.
So not only is the border between Immeasurable with finite time axis and infinite time axis a natural place to make a distinction, but it also has the advantage that nearly all characters that currently have Irrelevant Speed should continue to have it.
In other words, we should be spared from having to go through many revisions due to this change.
What maybe requires some explaining is why I talk about multiple dimensions of time here, since that model isn't given much attention when we are talking about how Immeasurable Speed works, simply because it only pertains to the higher-level versions of it. I think many people already heard of this, though, so those that do can safely skip this next paragraph.
So, an Immeasurable character might first go to the year 3000 to buy a laser gun, just to then move backwards in time to 1933 to kill Hitler. In terms of normal time, killing Hitler happened first and getting the laser gun after. However, from the Immeasurable character's perspective, it first bought the gun and then killed Hitler.
Hence we have two different kinds of before and after here. If an Immeasurable Character carried a clock, then what it did 5 minutes before according to that clock would be different from what it did 5 minutes before when going by a clock carried by a normal human. That means when talking about when something happened we need to give information according to which time we are talking. In a mathematical sense, we now need two numbers.
If the present is said to be (0,0), then 5 minutes in normal time from now could be written as (5,0). Meanwhile, 5 minutes from now from the perspective of the Immeasurable Character could be (0,5).
One can even combine those: 5 minutes from now in normal time, in the timeline as it will look for the Immeasurable Character in 5 minutes from its perspective, would be (5,5) for example.
From a mathematical perspective using two numbers like this means nothing, but that we are dealing with two dimensions of time. That doesn't mean a verse explicitly needs to have those. Like with dimensions we accept similar differences as equivalent.
A normal Immeasurable character can only move backwards in the first dimension of time, while in the second one (the one that is time as they experience it) they can move only forward like a normal human.
Now a character that can also move backwards in time in the second time dimension would essentially be immeasurable from the perspective of an immeasurable being.
It could, for example, see that the first Immeasurable Character kills Hitler with a laser gun and go backwards in the second dimension of time to stop the first Immeasurable Character from ever getting that gun and by that make it so that the first Immeasurable Character never killed Hitler in the past, to begin with.
So that's why I talk about multiple time dimensions as a model for different levels of Immeasurable speed and explains why they are well suited for defining a new Irrelevant speed rating.
Transduality has three types that mention Tier 1-A, namely Type 2, 3 & 4. That's for the simple reason that type 3 & 4 wish to be transcendent to everything on every level. That notion is quite obviously a problem. (Tbh I want to make some more changes to the wording of the page, but for this, I will keep it to what is necessary)
I would suggest changing the Type 2 text to:
Transduality is somewhat harder to deal with than Irrelevant Speed because the 1-A requirement was connected to the inherent idea behind the nature of these types. Just changing it to infinite dimensions would be rather strange, as the reason that it had this 1-A levels, to begin with, had nothing to do with scale.
Then again, capturing the entire idea behind them isn't possible. Being beyond everything on every level is high-grade Tier 0 once again and hence not a viable distinction. Due to that, we have no choice, but to limit the abilities to the scope of some level of reality.
Type 2 & 3 were only different by one being for 1-A's and one not. Hence it is a logical consequence that those two types will be fused together now that the distinction between 1-A and not 1-A became meaningless.
Type 4 then has to become type 3. I thought about making a new type so that we don't have to move type 4's, but nothing good that would really fit in between came to mind. Luckily there aren't all too many Transdual characters with these levels, so the revisions are limited. It's also pretty clear which former level will be what after the revision, so we don't need to have experts of every verse debate were to put them.
Of course, since we can't accept being beyond everything on all levels anymore, I had to take out the corresponding parts from the explanations and in some parts rewrite them into the opposite.
Concept Manipulation Type 1, similar to those in the last sections, reasons that something should be beyond spacetime in general, regardless of level, and hence should be reserved for Tier 1-A. With that, it is the 1-A version of Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. As before, being beyond spacetime, in general, would be high-end Tier 0 now, meaning this distinction would have no practical purpose.
Change Type 1 to
The thing that would technically make the most sense is to fuse Type 1 and 2, which would mean type 3 becomes type 2 and type 4 becomes type 3. This would mean that we need to edit all characters with conceptual manipulation, though. That would be about 1000 Characters. If people wish to do so, that would be the best solution though.
My proposal is essentially just to make Type 1 smurf conceptual manipulation. One could say this is somewhat in the spirit of the idea that the concepts are transcendent of the reality they are used on. That's really the only reason, though.
Another alternative would be to make it infinite-dimensional concept manipulation, although that is even more arbitrary.
In any case, replacing Type 1, instead of deleting it, would save a lot of effort as only very few characters have it, I think. Let me say that I would rather not try to forcefully come up with a qualitatively better type of concept, though.
Many of these revisions were taken care of already. For example, were Immortality Type 10 and True-Godly Regeneration removed.
This thread is for debating how to revise the last categories that require updating.
Irrelevant Speed
The current definition of Irrelevant speed isThe obvious problem: 1-A isn't being superior to time and space of any scale anymore. A being of the level of having an existence superior to any imaginable level of spacetime would be the highest ends of Tier 0. That would make this not a very practical rating.Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.
My Proposal
Irrelevant Speed should be redefined as:Characters capable of performing movement beyond infinite dimensions of time, i.e. characters with immeasurable speed in relation to at least an infinite amount of time axis.
Reasoning
Characters that were 1-A by the former tiering system were not only beyond spacetime but were usually also assumed to be beyond infinite-dimensional spacetime in particular.So not only is the border between Immeasurable with finite time axis and infinite time axis a natural place to make a distinction, but it also has the advantage that nearly all characters that currently have Irrelevant Speed should continue to have it.
In other words, we should be spared from having to go through many revisions due to this change.
What maybe requires some explaining is why I talk about multiple dimensions of time here, since that model isn't given much attention when we are talking about how Immeasurable Speed works, simply because it only pertains to the higher-level versions of it. I think many people already heard of this, though, so those that do can safely skip this next paragraph.
So, an Immeasurable character might first go to the year 3000 to buy a laser gun, just to then move backwards in time to 1933 to kill Hitler. In terms of normal time, killing Hitler happened first and getting the laser gun after. However, from the Immeasurable character's perspective, it first bought the gun and then killed Hitler.
Hence we have two different kinds of before and after here. If an Immeasurable Character carried a clock, then what it did 5 minutes before according to that clock would be different from what it did 5 minutes before when going by a clock carried by a normal human. That means when talking about when something happened we need to give information according to which time we are talking. In a mathematical sense, we now need two numbers.
If the present is said to be (0,0), then 5 minutes in normal time from now could be written as (5,0). Meanwhile, 5 minutes from now from the perspective of the Immeasurable Character could be (0,5).
One can even combine those: 5 minutes from now in normal time, in the timeline as it will look for the Immeasurable Character in 5 minutes from its perspective, would be (5,5) for example.
From a mathematical perspective using two numbers like this means nothing, but that we are dealing with two dimensions of time. That doesn't mean a verse explicitly needs to have those. Like with dimensions we accept similar differences as equivalent.
A normal Immeasurable character can only move backwards in the first dimension of time, while in the second one (the one that is time as they experience it) they can move only forward like a normal human.
Now a character that can also move backwards in time in the second time dimension would essentially be immeasurable from the perspective of an immeasurable being.
It could, for example, see that the first Immeasurable Character kills Hitler with a laser gun and go backwards in the second dimension of time to stop the first Immeasurable Character from ever getting that gun and by that make it so that the first Immeasurable Character never killed Hitler in the past, to begin with.
So that's why I talk about multiple time dimensions as a model for different levels of Immeasurable speed and explains why they are well suited for defining a new Irrelevant speed rating.
Transduality
Transduality has three types that mention Tier 1-A, namely Type 2, 3 & 4. That's for the simple reason that type 3 & 4 wish to be transcendent to everything on every level. That notion is quite obviously a problem. (Tbh I want to make some more changes to the wording of the page, but for this, I will keep it to what is necessary)My Proposal
I would suggest changing the Type 2 text to:The Type 3 text to:A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of binary logic or duality on at least one level of existence, standing beyond the scope of all dual systems and concepts on that level regardless of how complex they are. Such characters typically exist as contradictions within the context of their setting, and abide to dialetheic systems of logic, or are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation. As space, time, size and power themselves can be considered a duality, as well as the distinction between being a certain level on them or not, this type is limited to just those dualities within the level(s) of existence the character transcends.
And to delete Type 4.A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of even the distinction between duality and transduality on at least one level of existence. Such characters will usually not obey the laws of normal logic on said level, and will obey completely different systems of logic altogether, up to and including those states which are beyond human comprehension. A basic example of Plurality is characters whose fundamental nature operates under many-valued or certain kinds of non-classical logic, where many different values can exist that are not true or false, 0/1/2, or any dichotomies in between. However, simply being able to use many-valued logic in a feat context does not qualify a character for this type, such characters must demonstrate true qualitative superiority to all types of dual distinctions. Naturally, as it exists outside all possible dual distinctions at some level, only the dualities on a level the character transcends can be surpassed like this.
Reasoning
Transduality is somewhat harder to deal with than Irrelevant Speed because the 1-A requirement was connected to the inherent idea behind the nature of these types. Just changing it to infinite dimensions would be rather strange, as the reason that it had this 1-A levels, to begin with, had nothing to do with scale.Then again, capturing the entire idea behind them isn't possible. Being beyond everything on every level is high-grade Tier 0 once again and hence not a viable distinction. Due to that, we have no choice, but to limit the abilities to the scope of some level of reality.
Type 2 & 3 were only different by one being for 1-A's and one not. Hence it is a logical consequence that those two types will be fused together now that the distinction between 1-A and not 1-A became meaningless.
Type 4 then has to become type 3. I thought about making a new type so that we don't have to move type 4's, but nothing good that would really fit in between came to mind. Luckily there aren't all too many Transdual characters with these levels, so the revisions are limited. It's also pretty clear which former level will be what after the revision, so we don't need to have experts of every verse debate were to put them.
Of course, since we can't accept being beyond everything on all levels anymore, I had to take out the corresponding parts from the explanations and in some parts rewrite them into the opposite.
Conceptual Manipulation
Concept Manipulation Type 1, similar to those in the last sections, reasons that something should be beyond spacetime in general, regardless of level, and hence should be reserved for Tier 1-A. With that, it is the 1-A version of Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. As before, being beyond spacetime, in general, would be high-end Tier 0 now, meaning this distinction would have no practical purpose.Conceptual Manipulation
My Proposal
Change Type 1 toAnd change Type 2 toTranscendent Platonic Concept: Such concepts are the same as Plantic Concepts (Type 2), but govern a reality of a higher level of existence than the one that the concept manipulation user operates on.
Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality merely "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.
Reasoning
The thing that would technically make the most sense is to fuse Type 1 and 2, which would mean type 3 becomes type 2 and type 4 becomes type 3. This would mean that we need to edit all characters with conceptual manipulation, though. That would be about 1000 Characters. If people wish to do so, that would be the best solution though.My proposal is essentially just to make Type 1 smurf conceptual manipulation. One could say this is somewhat in the spirit of the idea that the concepts are transcendent of the reality they are used on. That's really the only reason, though.
Another alternative would be to make it infinite-dimensional concept manipulation, although that is even more arbitrary.
In any case, replacing Type 1, instead of deleting it, would save a lot of effort as only very few characters have it, I think. Let me say that I would rather not try to forcefully come up with a qualitatively better type of concept, though.