The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors

[Elizio33]

I'm a bit confused because some peoples say that the Monitor Sphere was never meant to be a 1-A or even a High 1-B place. And i also heard about a 5D and 11D Monitor Sphere... Is it true? If we ignore the other scans and statements of the other authors, can we assume that Morrison intended the Monitor Sphere to be a infinite dimensional place or not?

 

[Sera_EX]

"Never meant to be High 1-B" is as much of a vs debating myth as "DB isn't supposed to be above planet level".

 

[Elizio33]

So, the Monitor Sphere is really High 1-B and not High 2-A or High 1-C?

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

May I ask, Why was Thought Robot´s Regenerationn remove?

 

[Nether_nine]

Morrison is the main canon for DC's Cosmology now, all other statements of High-1B are really outlier cosmologies from secondary canonical sources on authority in regards to DC's Cosmology. And Morrison never ever implied any High-1B construct. At best, he wrote 1-A stuff, but the Monitor Sphere is ambigious on its own.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay so, the Monitor Sphere is not really 1-A and never was right?

 

[Nether_nine]

@Elizio

The Monitor Sphere literally looks like a 3-Dimensional world. All the Monitors fight, move and interact with each other in linear movement. Is that 1-A to you? It is for this wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Nether nine is probably correct in that Grant Morrison never intended the Monitor Sphere to be High 1-B, but I wouldn't be able to get through a revision on my own.

 

[Sera_EX]

Everything in fiction "looks 3D"

One of the biggest misconceptions of 1-A is that it's some super physics that defies all our reason and logic. It's not. 1-A is the same as everything else. There's 1-A magic in Umineko, 1-A sword fights in Dies irae, and 1-A monsters in Cthulhu. They are just over-sized beings and meta-abstracts with immunity to dimensional based space time powers and hax.

 

[Nether_nine]

The difference is that Monitors can literally get challenged by low level reality warpers from 3-Dimensional worlds. If you read the Unexpected this is a fact, otherwise we'd be getting 1-A Nth Metal weapons for blocking Mandrakk's laser beams.

 

[Sera_EX]

Are you sure you aren't referring to the House of Heroes I think it's called? The Monitors' home during Final Crisis? That thing exists in the Orrery of Worlds. They abandoned the Monitor Sphere prior to Final Crisis according to the DC Multiverse map. Also outliers do exist. Because otherwise you are suggesting Low 2-C Monitors.

 

[Nether_nine]

I'm talking about how Snyder's crap retconned stuff and made it so that Mandrakk fell into the Dark Multiverse after FC and came back in Unexpected. If you read the issues, you will find that Mandrakk was literally reality warped/haxed out by Neon (a low level reality warper) to eat the Dark Multiverse and although portrayed as a Multiversal threat, he is challengable by Quench who has no suggestion of being 1-A at all.

That's not very 1-A. You calling one of this an outlier is iffy since that "outlier" is the reason behind Mandrakk's current predicament. Perhaps forever. I doubt we'll be seeing Mandrakk again.

 

[Elizio33]

@Elizio

The Monitor Sphere literally looks like a 3-Dimensional world. All the Monitors fight, move and interact with each other in linear movement. Is that 1-A to you? It is for this wiki.

Okay thank you. But the Monitor Sphere is not really 3D because the Monitor Sphere is beyond the Sphere of Gods. And for the Mandrakk vs Neon and Alden Quench stuff, Neon the unknown should be comparable to Quench who has destroyed many universes and fought with Nix Uotan. Plus, It was revealed in the Unexpected that the Monitor Sphere is not beyond everything. And may i ask something about Thought Robot's vision: why his vision was only 4D?

 

[Nether_nine]

I do not know how the Monitor Sphere works exactly. But the fact remains that it is officially placed below the Source Wall which is itself, surpassable by many non-1-A characters.

Fact is also, multiple 3-D beings became standardly near equal to the size of a Monitor (Mandrakk) including 1 Fuginaut while they were in the Nil in Unexpected.

 

[Elizio33]

I do not know how the Monitor Sphere works exactly. But the fact remains that it is officially placed below the Source Wall which is itself, surpassable by many non-1-A characters.

Fact is also, multiple 3-D beings became standardly near equal to the size of a Monitor (Mandrakk) including 1 Fuginaut while they were in the Nil in Unexpected.

Okay so, why Mandrakk and Thought Robot are 1-A then if the Monitor Sphere is not 1-A???

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that we likely need to reevaluate the statistics for Mandrakk the Dark Monitor and The Thought Robot.

Here are some members that you should ask to comment here:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Reppuzan, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, The Archdemon, Kepekley23, Huesito88, Yobo Blue.

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima the problem is a lot of people believe that the Monitor Sphere and the Monitors are 1-A which is not the case.. But okay i will ask to these members. Can you change this thread for CRT instead of Q&A board please?

 

[KLOL506]

OOF

This is one part I am not experienced in, but I'd recommend Matt and Sandman for this one, since they applied the upgrades a year back.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will move this.

 

[Hykuu]

Grant never intended the monitor sphere to be 1-A, his entire cosmology runs on string theory.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay so, the Monitor Sphere and the Monitors should be much lower than 1-A like 2-A or High 2-A or even High 1-C right?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh please, just stop with this authorial intent fallacy here for the love of God.

"The author never intended for" is absolutely meaningless and runs contrary to everything which is done in this wiki such as respect threads, calculations, analysis, powerscaling and quantification. If we are suddenly oh-so-concerned with authorial intent than for the sake of integrity we might as well delete this whole website.

There is no need to downgrade anything here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They should be High 1-B, not 1-A. 1-A is bull and I don't know how it got there. Just remove the 1-A stats.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

While I'm not commenting on the whole 1-B thing because I don't know enough, I have to agree with the author intent point Matthew just made. We are not the writers so presuming to know exactly what they did or did not intend is fallacious. Otherwise there would be legitimate cases for the Odinforce being sub-planetary and Superman being megaton level due to Dan Jurgens, N52 Lanterns being teraton level due to Venditti, as well as a host of other examples (Superman having infinite Jesus power for example).

 

[Sera_EX]

Oh please, just stop with this authorial intent fallacy here for the love of God.

"The author never intended for" is absolutely meaningless and runs contrary to everything which is done in this wiki such as respect threads, calculations, analysis, powerscaling and quantification. If we are suddenly oh-so-concerned with authorial intent than for the sake of integrity we might as well delete this whole website.

There is no need to downgrade anything here.

Time to downgrade Frieza to 5-B ovo

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I took the liberty to downgrade them to High 1-B since 1-A was completely baseless. Their feat is High 1-B. Monitor Sphere is the highest level of the multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that High 1-B is better than previously at least.

 

[Antvasima]

Do any other characters need to be similarly rescaled, and did you update their statistics justifications as well?

 

[Nether_nine]

Matt, You look at the map of the DC Cosmology, I do not see any "High-1B" and you know that, stop rationalizing. I just see finite levels of realms and this is a repeated fact over and over and over again. This idea that the Sphere of the Gods is High-1B is even more baseless when it is consistently not that in every other descriptor.

Your High-1B N52 Cosmology is based on crappy 1-time inferior source Matteis comic featuring a character statement by a character that has never made another appearance with a questionable mental capacity if she is telling the truth or not. It's an Outlier Cosmology, and taking unreliable statements of Outlier Cosmology is really not the best way to scale Morrisonid Characters.

It's already having problems just trying to fit in how it makes sense with the rest of the story of DC. And it makes zero sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Of course the map appears finite, it doesn't show everything. Next you tell me it's 2-C cause only 52 universes in the map.

Get real.

 

[Sera_EX]

No one said the Sphere of Gods is High 1-B. It's High 2-A even though it's above the Bleed. We don't even rank it as Low 1-C.

Edit: I cannot type today.

 

[Elizio33]

@Sera EX I think he meant Monitor Sphere

 

[Nether_nine]

Because in-Universe, the characters who use the map let you know there are Infinite Universes. That's fine. But not Infinite Dimensions.

Next, you're gonna tell me a bunch of Green Lanterns actually conceived and transcended a High-1B construct to fix the Source Wall in the JL Annual which is illogically impossible to say the least. How did that happen?.

The old model is already giving DC fans from all forums including here a headache thinking about it and even Ant knows that. Time to address the elephant in the room instead of sticking to irrelevant N52 scans of outlier cosmologies, some half stated by a character we've never seen again whose statement is unreliable as to her credibiity.

Like, how do you know Sena is not lying? Or is not just mental or crazy?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that the offhanded DeMatties mentions seem unaccepted by the larger setting of DC Comics writers and editorial, whereas Grant Morrison's take has been accepted as official.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, just to avoid misunderstandings, Sena is a character in a story. He does not mean you Sera.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"This character should be lying" is one of the worst downplay assumptions one can make. The story gives no indication to ignore the statements.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Nether makes a good point.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that the offhanded DeMatties mentions seem unaccepted by the larger setting of DC Comics writers and editorial, whereas Grant Morrison's take has been accepted as official.

What about this? I also find it unreliable to scale an entire continuity based on offhanded snippets of information that have never been referenced by other writers or editorial.

 

[Hykuu]

By grant never intended I'm saying that there was nothing to support Infinite D in his comics, please try to think about how someone can use a word before leaving a comment like that.

@Ant DeMatteis's views don't seem to actually line up with grant's and grant's is inconsistent in his OWN cosmology, I don't see why we should apply to it to others, hell, snyder literally commented on it as 5D as a whole (Not saying it's 5D, but you get the idea), Grant's map doesn't seem to be something definite, rather just something every writer uses with their own perceptions, this isn't any different than any other cosmology statement.

 

[Hykuu]

"This character should be lying" is one of the worst downplay assumptions one can make. The story gives no indication to ignore the statements.

Sena is literally trying to percieve and manage infinite versions of herself all at once, her dialogue is off, and going off the fact that she is percieving infinite realities, it makes more sense that it's 2-A, even if we take the WoG from DeMatteis, which mind you, you seemed very against using WoG in the presence thread, she never actually refers to or says anything on the lines of spatial dimensions.