The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors

[Hykuu]

Oh, Yeah, Also, Is sandman going to return anytime soon? He took a big part in the changes for the monitors and CAS and all that, so if he is I'd suggest waiting for him, if he isn't, oh well.

 

[Nether_nine]

@Matt I find it funny that your Presence profile is based on the Sandman interpretation of the character to the Nth degree, then ignore the Matteis portrayal that makes him a Deep 1-A against the Sandman tier. Then use the Matteis snippet Cosmology for the Morrison Pets to scale for High-1B. I mean what? DC Comics is not a flip floppy cherry garden.

Your model was literally designed to favor Morrison's pets over everyone else, take and cherry pick what you want from secondary priority writers and ignore what you don't like.

I said that because Sena might as well be lying. Because she is proven wrong by Mxy, she is proven wrong by the Green Lanterns, etc. and etc. as if 3-D humans can transcend Infinite-D to reach the Source Wall? Non sense. Low Level 3-D Reality Warpers out-haxxing a so called "High-1B" Mandrakk and make him eat the Dark Multiverse? Also ridiculous. The 6th Dimension is the "Multiverse's Penthouse". While Sena never proved her statement on panel, Sena, a character who has never appeared again and never will, dump her in the non-existent canon you might as well.

Unless you can give me even one scan from Rebirth from primary sources of any Infinite Hierarchy, your interpretation is an unreliable one.

 

[Antvasima]

@Nether

Please make an effort to hold a polite and respectful tone towards Matthew.

 

[Hykuu]

I mean, to be honest, Nether has a point here, why are we trying to merge a million different writer's cosmologies and hoping for something consistent? And, if we're doing that,we might aswell delete this page due to how much we are contradicting it.

 

[Antvasima]

The page itself is fine and necessary, but I agree that we should try to find the most reliable interpretation.

 

[Hykuu]

It's fine if we use it, but we clearly are disregarding it if THIS is how we are scaling cosmology, I can make a thread regarding every interpretation's situation regarding Infinite Dimensions, if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

Just because it has not been used in this case does not mean that we should remove it and open the doors for a much wider range of massive scaling errors.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I disagree with this particular scaling of the cosmology, remember?

 

[Hykuu]

Just because it has not been used in this case does not mean that we should remove it and open the doors for a much wider range of massive scaling errors.

I'm not saying that you should literally delete, it was a figure of speech, I'm saying the page's reason for existing is just thrown out in order for this scaling to work.

That's fine, but I can still make a thread to clarify it for others, if that's ok.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but as I mentioned, I agree with you and Nether about this, but, contrary to slander from other communities, I am not remotely some kind of god-tyrant of this wiki. We have strict procedures in place. I can't push through this change without staff approval.

Why do you wish to create a new thread rather than discuss the issue here?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that the offhanded DeMatties mentions seem unaccepted by the larger setting of DC Comics writers and editorial, whereas Grant Morrison's take has been accepted as official.

What about this? I also find it unreliable to scale an entire continuity based on offhanded snippets of information that have never been referenced by other writers or editorial.

Nothing about this is unreliable. And seriously, what is up with some of you people desperately trying to downgrade DC at every turn? There has been so many threads here about the Monitors and the High 1-B scaling and always by the same people.

Downgrading DC to "High 1-C" because Grant Morrison mentions String Theory concepts as having been used into the Multiverse is a complete logical fallacy as taking concepts like Quantum Vibration and Bulkspaces and applying it to a fictional cosmology does not set a hard game on the number of dimensions.

Downgrading DC to High 1-C because "It's the authorial intent" is utterly ludicrous as the mere fact of analyzing and quantifying the cosmology like this is counter-point to this notion. We might as well downgrade every comicbook character ever.

downgrading DC to 6D 1-C because of a recent Justice League storyline by Scott Snyder is even more ridiculous as it ignores decades of storylines and comics that contradict it. It's just showing favouritism towards the shiny new thing.

There are statements of 13, 28, 186,800, and infinite spatial dimensions in DC Comics. And I'm sure there are more, such as statements about infinite layers and whatnot. To deny all of that because on some assumed i n t e n t is pure bs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh please, just stop with this authorial intent fallacy here for the love of God.
"The author never intended for" is absolutely meaningless and runs contrary to everything which is done in this wiki such as respect threads, calculations, analysis, powerscaling and quantification. If we are suddenly oh-so-concerned with authorial intent than for the sake of integrity we might as well delete this whole website.

There is no need to downgrade anything here.

I reiterate. The "authorial intent" argument which is the primary thing Hykuu and Nethers push for every time is utterly meaningless. And it's shocking (But perhaps it shouldn't be) that you go for it, Ant. Every single time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I simply tend to prefer consistency over casual mentions for scaling this kind of massive continuity. The 200000-dimensional snowflake is a valid point though. That is far more official.

Also, we weren't intending to downgrade the 1-A characters, just the High 1-B ones.

 

[Hykuu]

"I reiterate. The "authorial intent" argument which is the primary thing Hykuu and Nethers push for every time is utterly meaningless."

"

By grant never intended I'm saying that there was nothing to support Infinite D in his comics, please try to think about how someone can use a word before leaving a comment like that."

"Downgrading DC to "High 1-C" because Grant Morrison mentions String Theory concepts as having been used into the Multiverse is a complete logical fallacy as taking concepts like Quantum Vibration and Bulkspaces and applying it to a fictional cosmology does not set a hard game on the number of dimensions."

Quantum String Theory suggests that there are 11 dimensions which also correlates to Grant suggesting DC is a multiverse due to String Theory suggesting the same. And ok, let's say it doesn't, show me grant stating there are infinite dimensions, LMAO

"downgrading DC to 6D 1-C because of a recent Justice League storyline by Scott Snyder is even more ridiculous as it ignores decades of storylines and comics that contradict it. It's just showing favouritism towards the shiny new thing."

", I don't see why we should apply to it to others, hell, snyder literally commented on it as 5D as a whole (Not saying it's 5D, but you get the idea)"

Keep strawmanning, please.

"There are statements of 13, 28, 186,800, and infinite spatial dimensions in DC Comics. And I'm sure there are more, such as statements about infinite layers and whatnot. To deny all of that because on some assumed i n t e n t is pure bs."

13 was never stated

28 is a classic flash comic

Infinite are the ones we are discussing, please prove any are referring to spatial dimensions and are uncountably infinite.

We are not denying all of that due to a single point you strawmanned, but consistency, or the sites very own rules.

 

[Hykuu]

Also for the snowflake

>dimensional was directly proven to be alternate universes and just a different usage of the term from ours, stop applying your own subjective standards to every scan which clearly doesn't follow it.

 

[Hykuu]

On another note, lol, instead of deleting the message, please try to directly talk to me about this either on your message wall on discord, if you want to solve this misconception that is.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, just to reiterate, it is very important that people here hold a respectful tone towards Matthew and others. This is just supposed to be a civil discussion. There is no need to get personal.

 

[Hykuu]

hence the "take this to a message wall or discord" part.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Matthew makes a good point, and the 1-A ratings have been removed. Should we close this thread?

 

[Hykuu]

Idc if the 1-A gets removed, but I am just going to mention that the cosmology arguments brought up are terrible, you can close this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.