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The fastest known speedsters across creation, now face each other in a fierce brawl (GRACE)

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Also due to the dark multiverse there are probably infinite evil Wally's constantly using immeasurable speed. (Dark Multiverse Flashes kept up with the Flash family)
 
omegabronic said:
how so? that being the source for all of them doesn't mean that it stacks
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It kinda does mate.
omegabronic said:
well, superhero so i believe no killing from him, and sonic doesn't have any weapon, so i get that he wouldn't use it?
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Wally has killed living beings before even when not necessary.
omegabronic said:
well, that becomes a problem since sonic only need to do as much as attack wally once for him to win
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Wally dies, goes to SF, breaks out, nukes Sonic's concept. Wally is still faster mate.
 
Greenshifter said:
Boooo, that’s literally a concession considering what this match represents.
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sonic>>>>dc comics in my headcanon, that is what it represents in my heart

Greenshifter said:
I wish it were that simple.
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d-does wally, the flash, a superhero, kills on a normal fight?

Greenshifter said:
Fair, though Wally did resist the past and future being rewritten.
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it is not much as being rewritten, it is sonic punching him throughtout all of time, and destroying his mind via physical striking it, if the causality doesn't get him that will
 
omegabronic said:
sonic>>>>dc comics in my headcanon, that is what it represents in my heart
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In quality or powerscaling?
omegabronic said:
d-does wally, the flash, a superhero, kills on a normal fight?
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Not really no, but that wasn't why it's complicated.
omegabronic said:
it is not much as being rewritten, it is sonic punching him throughtout all of time, and destroying his mind via physical striking it, if the causality doesn't get him that will
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I mean Wally would be getting hit with anti-matter throughout all of time so no biggy. His mind getting destroyed would be more of an issue though Ig (even though I could argue that the Anti-Matter wave was gonna affect platonic concepts which is like >>> minds).
 
Greenshifter said:
In quality or powerscaling?
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yes

Greenshifter said:
Not really no, but that wasn't why it's complicated.
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and this is why i fear comics as a reader

Greenshifter said:
I mean Wally would be getting hit with anti-matter throughout all of time so no biggy.
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why isn't that on the profile? i don't understand

Greenshifter said:
His mind getting destroyed would be more of an issue though Ig (even though I could argue that the Anti-Matter wave was gonna affect platonic concepts which is like >>> minds).
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o come on dude, platonic things are already over used in reddit/amino sonic scaling, don't tell me dc has it too
 
So, like I said yesterday, here is my verdict for both characters

Sonic
(+) Super Form is Invulnerable
(+) Greater attack Range with energy manip and construct creation
(+) Can Fly/ Has Aerial Control over fight
(+) More Acrobatic than the flash, and has more experience incorporating speed and acrobatics into his fighting style, making him overall the better fighter.
(+) Causality Manip can allow Super Sonic to attack flash at every point in their fight every time he hits
(+) Duplicates help with the above point
(+) Can attack flash while intangible due to Non-Physical Interaction and being able to interact with/hurt Non-Existent beings like The End
(+) Can resist Wally's Matter Manipulation and Biological Manipulation (Post-Crisis)
(-) Debatably Slower
(-) While not dumb, is likely not as analytically smart as Flash (who is also amped by the speed force)
(-) Unlike Archie Sonic, Super Form doesn't replenish Speed (at least on paper, though it has been stated that the Chaos Emeralds/Super Forms are empowered by Positive Emotions, so that could be a workaround)
(-) While likely not as short as the games make it out to be, the Super Form does have a time limit.
(-) Flashes Type 1 Acausality could protect him from Sonic's Causality Manipultion (though this was TECHNICALLY retconned in FlashPoint)
(-) Can't likely resist Flash's Type 2 conceptual manipulation despite having resistance against Conceptual Mind Manip (but the situation itself in which the flash did it was rather vague and ill defined, not to mention it only happened once, and not something the flash actively uses in a fight)
(=) Both Characters Resist eachothers Time Manipulation, Time Travel, Dimensional Travel and BFR abilities
(=) Both characters have experience fighting people of similar speeds

Wally West
(+) Debatably Much Faster
(+) Can Steal Super Sonics Speed, which increases the above point
(+) Likely the smarter combatant in this fight due to a combination of Speed Force amplifying his perception and analytical skills, and being very experienced with using the Speed Force
(+) Also debatably more experienced overall.
(+) Can Potentially outlast Super Sonic
(+) Flash's Type 2 conceptual manipulation could possibly effect Super Sonic...
(-) ...but the situation itself in which the flash did it was rather vague and ill defined, not to mention it only happened once, and not something the flash actively uses in a fight.
(+) Type 1 Acausality could protect him from Sonic's Causality Manipultion...
(-) ...though this is debateable, and would later be Retconned Out in Flashpoint, where Flash was physically affected by changes to his own timestream
(-) Is outranged by Super Sonic, who can also fly and has greater control over battlefield
(-) Can possibly be attacked while intangible, which could him potentially being suprised attacked and killed if he's not careful.
(=) Both Characters Resist eachothers Time Manipulation, Time Travel, Dimensional Travel and BFR abilities
(=) Both characters have experience fighting people of similar speeds
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Yes and no, iirc, Dr Manhattan actually trapped Wally in the Speed Force before the Flashpoint happened. So he wasn't really affected by the Flashpoint.
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Sorry that was my fault, I got barry allen mixed with Wally West in regards to the Flashpoint.

That being said however, my point still stands about Wally West not having acausality. Barry Allen, who is for the most part identical to the Wally in terms of powers, was affected by the changed he causes to his own timeline, and while he could remember the original timeline before he was reset, his powers could not prevent them from being retroactively lost due to the changes he made. Considering also the fact that Professor Zoom could only be free from causality following the events of the flashpoint (where he became a paradox), Barry Allen (and by extension Wally West) likely can't break the rules of causality like Zoom can and thus shouldn't have Acausality listed in their profile.
 
FireSwordHero said:
Sorry that was my fault, I got barry allen mixed with Wally West in regards to the Flashpoint.

That being said however, my point still stands about Wally West not having acausality. Barry Allen, who is for the most part identical to the Wally in terms of powers, was affected by the changed he causes to his own timeline, and while he could remember the original timeline before he was reset, his powers could not prevent them from being retroactively lost due to the changes he made. Considering also the fact that Professor Zoom could only be free from causality following the events of the flashpoint (where he became a paradox), Barry Allen (and by extension Wally West) likely can't break the rules of causality like Zoom can and thus shouldn't have Acausality listed in their profile.
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Eh no, it's iffy to scale Barry Allen to Wally West considering Wally's much stronger speed force connection, and Wally has several abilities Barry never had and Wally virtually surpassing Barry in almost every way.

So scaling Barry's abilities to Wally's is very faulty.
 
FireSwordHero said:
That being said however, my point still stands about Wally West not having acausality. Barry Allen, who is for the most part identical to the Wally in terms of powers, was affected by the changed he causes to his own timeline, and while he could remember the original timeline before he was reset, his powers could not prevent them from being retroactively lost due to the changes he made. Considering also the fact that Professor Zoom could only be free from causality following the events of the flashpoint (where he became a paradox), Barry Allen (and by extension Wally West) likely can't break the rules of causality like Zoom can and thus shouldn't have Acausality listed in their profile.
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Wally has acausality, Flashpoint is just very potent.
 
FireSwordHero said:
Well, considering a lot of people (not just death battle) decided that Wally could beat Archie Sonic, who is leagues above his game counterpart, I don't think that the verdict is looking good for sonic. That being said, considering this site technically places both at 2A, i suppose ill be the devils advocate and actually try and make a proper verdict.

(Also just for clarification, I am only considering Base Sonic from both periods as well as both Super and Hyper Sonic. I am not considering the color powers as they have been rarely used in canon games post colors, plus I am not sure if Sonic can actually use them while Super)

So for Sonic, he does have some stuff going for him. Sonic overall is a much better fighter compared to Wally as Sonic has been shown to actually fight a lot more with his mobility and acrobatics compared to Flash, who mainly uses his speed to dodge hits and attack in a hit and run fighting style against people who are slower than him, but when faced with other speedsters his fighting prowess dimishes greatly, so point to Sonic here.

As Super Sonic, he's invulnerable thanks to the chaos emeralds, so its unlikely that Flash can hurt him as long as it lasts. Sonic also a massive increase to his attack range and attack capabilities due to his ability to shoot energy and create energy constructs. His attacks are also capable of hurting Wally West at every point time as shown in his fight with Solaris, so if Sonic can get a few hits in he can likely steamroll, which is made even easier by his ability to duplicate himself with golden copies. Wally may be able to turn intangible, but Super Sonic was able to interact and attack Non-Phsyical entities like The End which have turned incoporeal and have Non-Existent Physiology (not to mention that Sonic can already do similar Non-Physical interactions when he is in his base form, just on a lower scale), so Sonic could still likely be able to hit him if the latter doesn't dodge like normal. These effects are further enchanced when Sonic goes Hyper, since its the same transformation as Super Sonic, but on a greater scale.

(NOTE: Some people might consider Wally West's Acausality from his Post-Flashpoint profile as a counter to Super Sonic's Causality Manipulation, but I wouldn't consider it to be a valid point as the evidence for said Acausality was taken from an event that, aside from it being confusing (at least to me), was technically retconned with the Flashpoint event. The Flash can retain memories of prior timelines when his history is changed, but it doesn't protect himself from being changed, as he still lost his powers due to messing with his own timeline since he never got them in the new one. Not to mention that Professor Zoom, one of Wally's biggest rivals, could only mess with his own timeline after becoming a living paradox during Flashpoint, so by that logic Wally can't do the same without the rules of causality, unless of course a similar event happens to him. It should also go without saying that any change to flash's timeline that results in his death would also kill him as a result.)

Going to Wally's side however, aside from the fact that Wally is debatably faster (at least in terms of characters that have IMMEASURABLE speed) and could potentially outlast Sonic's Super Form, the speedster has one thing going for him that gives him a very strong win-con: Wally West can steal the speed from Sonic, and unlike the Archie version, his speed can't be restored with the Super Form. Granted, the Super form in the game series technically are empowered by positive emotions, so it could be argued that Sonic (who is a naturally positive postive) can convert his emotions into power and restore his speed that way, but thats too much of a dubious arguement to determine if Super Sonic can resist the speed steal since the statements aren't as clear cut as Archies version of the Chaos Emerals, so point to Flash there. Also, while Sonic is by no means dumb, Wally Wests own intelligence, his experience with the Speed Force, and the abilitity to amplify his own thought processes with the Speed Force means that Wally overall is likely going to be the smarter combatant in this fight.

Sonic and Wally both have other abilities as well, but most are either unlikely to matter in this fight or cancel eachtoher out. Both Wally and Sonic can use time travel and resists the others ability to use it (Flash with his Cosmic Awareness, and Sonic with his own Type 1 Acausality and Type 4 given by the Super Form) , and both have methods of BFRing the other person, with those same abilities being allowing them counter the others effects. Both can also dimension travel to different so thats also a non factor here.

I would give my vote for Super Sonic, but I would argue that Wally still has a fair chance here as well give that each fighter has both obvious strengths and weaknesses over each other.

I'll do a more simplified verdict tomorrow for each character for those who are TLDR, but right now its 12am here and I NEED SLEEP
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Seems fair

I'm more convinced on sonic thought.
 
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