Everything in the game Sonic profile I have some issue with (removal version)

[JJSliderman]

Since people told me to take all my issues with Sonic’s profile elsewhere, I figured I’d do that.

*Durability Negation/Power null for Excalibur Sonic: False, he very clearly takes many swings to destroy barriers, this is just chipping away at a barrier until it breaks. Excalibur being able to cut through anything can simply be attributed to the sword being really sharp rather than negating durability.

*Matter/Antimatter resistance for Sonic: Firstly, matter manip is pretty debatable to apply to Sonic to begin with, as the only explicit matter manip weapon in Shadow’s game is the particle beam cannon in the Blue Falcon and Heavy Dog fights, fights Sonic doesn’t appear in. But since Diablon is a superior model and has a laser with a similar color as the PBC, maybe you could argue a possibly.

The bigger issue is that Sonic never actually gets hit by this weapon. He just passes straight through, likely because it would be a dumb design choice from a gameplay standpoint to make the boss hurt its own ally. And yes, Sonic can get hurt in this fight by Shadow. Since Sonic never gets hurt or even affected by the weapons of Diablon, there’s no reason he should have a resistance.

Some may argue that canonically Sonic did get hit, or that he’s still in the range of the boss’s attack and thus is still receiving antimatter into him, but that just causes inconsistencies when Shadow also gets hit by the weapon, and does take damage from it. And since this weapon only appears in gameplay, there’s no way to tell canonically if Sonic was hit. I’d also say the same for Black Doom but, I need to check if he can get hit in the multiplayer.

*2-A Chaos Control BFR: The argument is that since Blaze CC’d herself to a dimension that Solaris couldn’t reach with his time-space erasure, and since Solaris could affect all of space-time, and space-time consists of infinite dimensions, this means CC can send people outside the range of an infinite multiverse. I have…several issues.

First off, we have no idea if Blaze was unaffected. Just because she’s not in the intersection, doesn’t mean she was unaffected. Random Soleannans who were right next to the characters who we see inside the space time intersection, were not visible at all after Solaris’s rebirth and the white flash. You can say that the Chaos Emeralds protected the characters who were in the intersection, yet Blaze wasn’t there despite also having the CE, so she wasn’t affected, but that brings me into point two:

Solaris arguably didn’t affect the whole multiverse before he was defeated.

If you look at everything in the game itself, it all leans toward the idea Solaris was eventually going to destroy all of time, and they had to beat him before that happened. That is, except one line in the Encyclospeedia, where it states that “as Solaris destroys all of spacetime, the heroes swatch for the Chaos Emeralds across fractured reality”. Problem is, since this quote is present tense it makes it kind of vague if Solaris had finished destroying all of spacetime, or if he was in the process of doing so, as this quote can lead to both ways. Ultimately, I believe it to be the latter.

1. If Solaris had destroyed all of time, then him being at all points in time would be meaningless, as time wouldn’t exist as a concept anymore.

2. The entire reason Solaris was permanently killed involved traveling back to the past and extinguishing Solaris’s spark before the game’s events, creating a timeline change. This would be impossible if time still existed.

Since Solaris’s destruction involves both space and time, if time still existed then space likely does as well. So, Solaris likely did not destroy the whole infinite multiverse before he was defeated, so Blaze would not have to be sent beyond an infinite multiverse to escape Solaris (and I highly doubt she went to Maginaryworld either).

With that said, there are sources of BFR that likely do send beyond the range of an infinite multiverse (like Null Space), and you could argue that the Sonics restoring the entirety of space-time post-Time Eater means Chaos Energy (and thus Chaos Control BFR), has 2-A range regardless. But since Sonic restoring everything does not require BFR, if this doesn’t count as potential BFR range, Chaos Control BFR should be downgraded to either 2-C or 2-B BFR, unless CC BFR is treated as superior to Phantom Ruby BFR and the latter is considered 2-A range (I’m not sure).

*Layered time stop: The argument is that Chaos Control can affect Tails, who is unaffected by timeless areas in Cannon’s Core. Problem here is simply that the characters themselves are the ones activating the switches that create the timeless areas, so they are likely being offered protection (otherwise there’s no point to having these switches for the previous ARK creators). Yes, Eggman and Tails’s bullets can also activate these switches, but they are still connected to Tails and Eggman’s machinery.

That said, due to the single timeline aspect, Classic Sonic pre-Adventure 2 had already gone through White Space, and could still be affected by Chaos Control, so I’m somewhat fine with this staying if the concept of timeless voids gives resistance to time manipulation.

*Low-Godly regen for Shahra’s ring: This had a thread but was never applied, Sonic does not regenerate when his body is completely destroyed, so this isn’t low-godly. Just resurrection.

* Maginaryworld:

Recently, Dream Depot from Mario was downgraded due to not enough evidence that every dream was Uni, and I feel Maginaryworld is in the same boat due to how similar the two areas are.

I have yet to see any Sonic dream that is visually Uni. Chao in Space, the area you see when transitioning to minigames in Shuffle (1:00:03), at best we see one large galaxy or a sky full of stars, which is more like MSS-Galaxy.

The only other thing is statements about dreams having a Uni scope, but this would require the dreamer to have a 100% accurate scope of the universe in their head, which is frankly hard to buy. Especially for Joe Schmoe in Station Square. In fact, you straight up walk across constellations in seconds as normal size Sonic and friends while in 4th dimension space, which casts further doubt on the scope of the individual worlds.

That said, if there is an infinite amount of worlds to draw dreams from, MW would still be 2-A due to infinite separate 3D spaces under a 4D banner; for every other version of the non dream cosmology though, MW should be downgraded due to dreams not having enough evidence to be uni size for every single one.

Think that’s it for now, if I find enough other things I’ll make a separate thread for those or edit this one. Maybe I’ll make a buffing thread too.

 

[Lenyo456]

Most seem viable, and I'd like to add about Dimensinal Travel (Adventure Era), as it's a stealth the first part of the stealth is "Noted to have returned to his world from the Arabian Night and World of Camelot alternate realities."

But the problem is that we have no idea how he managed to get back, and it's unlikely that he did it on his own, since to go to those worlds he needed someone to bring him (By Shahra and Malenna)

The second part falls into the same scheme "Can travel towards Special Stages, which are stated to be other dimensions"
And again, he just entered these dimensions with the help of a specific item, he can't just freely travel through them.

 

[omegabronic]

*Durability Negation/Power null for Excalibur Sonic: False, he very clearly takes many swings to destroy barriers, this is just chipping away at a barrier until it breaks. Excalibur being able to cut through anything can simply be attributed to the sword being really sharp rather than negating durability.

the 2 are completely unralated, dunno why you are talking about both of them as if they were

*Matter/Antimatter resistance for Sonic: Firstly, matter manip is pretty debatable to apply to Sonic to begin with, as the only explicit matter manip weapon in Shadow’s game is the particle beam cannon in the Blue Falcon and Heavy Dog fights, fights Sonic doesn’t appear in. But since Diablon is a superior model and has a laser with a similar color as the PBC, maybe you could argue a possibly.

The bigger issue is that Sonic never actually gets hit by this weapon. He just passes straight through, likely because it would be a dumb design choice from a gameplay standpoint to make the boss hurt its own ally. And yes, Sonic can get hurt in this fight by Shadow. Since Sonic never gets hurt or even affected by the weapons of Diablon, there’s no reason he should have a resistance.

Some may argue that canonically Sonic did get hit, or that he’s still in the range of the boss’s attack and thus is still receiving antimatter into him, but that just causes inconsistencies when Shadow also gets hit by the weapon, and does take damage from it. And since this weapon only appears in gameplay, there’s no way to tell canonically if Sonic was hit. I’d also say the same for Black Doom but, I need to check if he can get hit in the multiplayer.

All this means is that sonic's resistance is better than shadow, the blast is big an sonic is extremely close to the target, shadow, the hits hit him, and yet he continues, that's it, it is pretty simple and on the nose, agree on the removal of matter tho

*2-A Chaos Control BFR: The argument is that since Blaze CC’d herself to a dimension that Solaris couldn’t reach with his time-space erasure, and since Solaris could affect all of space-time, and space-time consists of infinite dimensions, this means CC can send people outside the range of an infinite multiverse. I have…several issues.

First off, we have no idea if Blaze was unaffected. Just because she’s not in the intersection, doesn’t mean she was unaffected. Random Soleannans who were right next to the characters who we see inside the space time intersection, were not visible at all after Solaris’s rebirth and the white flash.

the intersection is very big, they can just be elsewhere in it, simple enough

You can say that the Chaos Emeralds protected the characters who were in the intersection, yet Blaze wasn’t there despite also having the CE, so she wasn’t affected, but that brings me into point two:

Solaris arguably didn’t affect the whole multiverse before he was defeated.

If you look at everything in the game itself, it all leans toward the idea Solaris was eventually going to destroy all of time, and they had to beat him before that happened. That is, except one line in the Encyclospeedia, where it states that “as Solaris destroys all of spacetime, the heroes swatch for the Chaos Emeralds across fractured reality”. Problem is, since this quote is present tense it makes it kind of vague if Solaris had finished destroying all of spacetime, or if he was in the process of doing so, as this quote can lead to both ways.

Considering on iminate of a threat solaris is, then him already doing it is the most likely answer

Ultimately, I believe it to be the latter.

1. If Solaris had destroyed all of time, then him being at all points in time would be meaningless, as time wouldn’t exist as a concept anymore.

destroy all of time =/= destroy all timelines/spacetimes, there was still time in the intersection, moot point

2. The entire reason Solaris was permanently killed involved traveling back to the past and extinguishing Solaris’s spark before the game’s events, creating a timeline change. This would be impossible if time still existed.

see above

Since Solaris’s destruction involves both space and time, if time still existed then space likely does as well. So, Solaris likely did not destroy the whole infinite multiverse before he was defeated, so Blaze would not have to be sent beyond an infinite multiverse to escape Solaris (and I highly doubt she went to Maginaryworld either).

solaris would destroy maginary world as well, so moot point

With that said, there are sources of BFR that likely do send beyond the range of an infinite multiverse (like Null Space), and you could argue that the Sonics restoring the entirety of space-time post-Time Eater means Chaos Energy (and thus Chaos Control BFR), has 2-A range regardless. But since Sonic restoring everything does not require BFR, if this doesn’t count as potential BFR range, Chaos Control BFR should be downgraded to either 2-C or 2-B BFR, unless CC BFR is treated as superior to Phantom Ruby BFR and the latter is considered 2-A range (I’m not sure).

Upscaling should work

*Layered time stop: The argument is that Chaos Control can affect Tails, who is unaffected by timeless areas in Cannon’s Core. Problem here is simply that the characters themselves are the ones activating the switches that create the timeless areas, so they are likely being offered protection (otherwise there’s no point to having these switches for the previous ARK creators). Yes, Eggman and Tails’s bullets can also activate these switches, but they are still connected to Tails and Eggman’s machinery.

Headcanon, never stated that it protects the users at all, plus people who didn't activated the switches can still talk and act, therefore this is simply false, they stop time for a few seconds so it wouldn't be a problem if it affected who activatef them

That said, due to the single timeline aspect, Classic Sonic pre-Adventure 2 had already gone through White Space, and could still be affected by Chaos Control, so I’m somewhat fine with this staying if the concept of timeless voids gives resistance to time manipulation.

sonic cd as well, don't forget that

* Maginaryworld:

Recently, Dream Depot from Mario was downgraded due to not enough evidence that every dream was Uni, and I feel Maginaryworld is in the same boat due to how similar the two areas are.

They are not similar, nor were the arguments for them remotely comparable at all

I have yet to see any Sonic dream that is visually Uni. Chao in Space, the area you see when transitioning to minigames in Shuffle (1:00:03), at best we see one large galaxy or a sky full of stars, which is more like MSS-Galaxy.

The Chao dreaming of flying through space and the area in shuffle are support feats and not main arguments

The only other thing is statements about dreams having a Uni scope, but this would require the dreamer to have a 100% accurate scope of the universe in their head

No it wouldn't and i have no idea why you would think that they do, maginary world is making the dreams come true in reality, besides i am pretty sure eggman has 100% knowledge on what the universe is, so since all dream worlds are of the same size, moot point

which is frankly hard to buy. Especially for Joe Schmoe in Station Square. In fact, you straight up walk across constellations in seconds as normal size Sonic and friends while in 4th dimension space, which casts further doubt on the scope of the individual worlds.

You mean where the dream worlds are said to be "projecting like a screen"? It is just that. A projection, it isn't literally their size, unless you say that sonic and co shrink when they enter a dream world and that they are 1 meter in size that is

That said, if there is an infinite amount of worlds to draw dreams from, MW would still be 2-A due to infinite separate 3D spaces under a 4D banner; for every other version of the non dream cosmology though, MW should be downgraded due to dreams not having enough evidence to be uni size for every single one.

They absolutely do, thread and blog about it with arguments that you didn't cover are just there linked in the profiles

 

[Dragonite007]

@omegabronic makes sense

 

[JJSliderman]

the 2 are completely unralated, dunno why you are talking about both of them as if they were

Because it talks about shattering Magic barriers as evidence for power null, and dura neg is that it broke through DQ’s defenses in one blow, both of which can be proven incorrect by just saying Sonic cut through the barrier by chipping through.

All this means is that sonic's resistance is better than shadow, the blast is big an sonic is extremely close to the target, shadow, the hits hit him, and yet he continues, that's it, it is pretty simple and on the nose, agree on the removal of matter tho

-Sonic should not have a resistance at all because he’s straight up not being hit by the move, it’s that simple.

the intersection is very big, they can just be elsewhere in it, simple enough

So literally everyone in Soleanna was just magically placed at a random point in the intersection we never see, the intersection that at most has a few floating platforms and the levels the characters go through (which also don’t feature any Soleannans)?, Sounds very convenient.

Considering on iminate of a threat solaris is, then him already doing it is the most likely answer

Solaris being an imminent threat does not mean he immediately destroyed the multiverse, him destroying Sonic’s universe already makes him need to be stopped ASAP.

destroy all of time =/= destroy all timelines/spacetimes, there was still time in the intersection, moot point

Yes, and the fact that space and time still existed in this intersection is proof Solaris hadn’t destroyed everything, thanks for sharing.

solaris would destroy maginary world as well, so moot point

Eventually, he would have destroyed it. It doesn’t prove that Solaris’s immediate range is 2-A.

Headcanon, never stated that it protects the users at all, plus people who didn't activated the switches can still talk and act, therefore this is simply false, they stop time for a few seconds so it wouldn't be a problem if it affected who activatef them

If it affected people that activated the switch, the switch would be pointless because nothing could be done in the allotted frame of stopped time. And it’s common in fiction that when you activate a power you become unaffected by it, unless you want to say DIO gets resistance to his own time stop.

They are not similar, nor were the arguments for them remotely comparable at all

They’re both collections of the dreams of their respective multiverses, said dreams being contained in tiny orbs, guarded by ancient mystical beings and being threatened to have all the dreams changed to darkness by an evil force that would destroy the world. They’re pretty much the same.

The Chao dreaming of flying through space and the area in shuffle are support feats and not main arguments

I think they should be the main argument, considering it’s dreams which are inherently not real by default, you should prove they are visually Uni.

No it wouldn't and i have no idea why you would think that they do, maginary world is making the dreams come true in reality, besides i am pretty sure eggman has 100% knowledge on what the universe is, so since all dream worlds are of the same size, moot point

Prove he knows the exact dimensions of the universe, that’s never been stated. Making the dreams come to reality doesn’t inherently mean the dreams are equivalent to their real world counterparts in size, it can just mean they’re as big as the dreamer perceives them because that still brings the dream to life

You mean where the dream worlds are said to be "projecting like a screen"? It is just that. A projection, it isn't literally their size, unless you say that sonic and co shrink when they enter a dream world and that they are 1 meter in size that is

The constellations are not projections like the dream worlds, they’re part of the main 4D space and are blatantly not the size of real constellations.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[omegabronic]

Because it talks about shattering Magic barriers as evidence for power null, and dura neg is that it broke through DQ’s defenses in one blow, both of which can be proven incorrect by just saying Sonic cut through the barrier by chipping through.

the magic barriers argument is nowhere close to why it is durability neg https://vsbattles.com/threads/game-sonic-crt-fighting-games-rivals-and-storybooks.125346/ read it, you should, either way, sonic can completely nullify the magic attack merlina launches, making them disappear by simply touching excalibur

All this means is that sonic's resistance is better than shadow, the blast is big an sonic is extremely close to the target, shadow, the hits hit him, and yet he continues, that's it, it is pretty simple and on the nose, agree on the removal of matter tho

-Sonic should not have a resistance at all because he’s straight up not being hit by the move, it’s that simple.

he literally is being hit

So literally everyone in Soleanna was just magically placed at a random point in the intersection we never see, the intersection that at most has a few floating platforms and the levels the characters go through (which also don’t feature any Soleannans)?

do we know its size? no, crisis city, an entire....well, city, is in there, with several other stages with numerous areas of soleana and beyond, it is very well shown to be bigger than "a few floating plataforms" that is very clear

Sounds very convenient.

as convenient and the chars being caught in a intersection in the first place, that is what happens, we must just accept it and move on

Solaris being an imminent threat does not mean he immediately destroyed the multiverse, him destroying Sonic’s universe already makes him need to be stopped ASAP.

he affect multiple timelines at once simply by being birthed, as shown when silver's was affected, but wait, blaze's weren't, and when the text in the guide says that he already did that by the time the chars entered the end of the world stage, it is very clear what solaris did

Yes, and the fact that space and time still existed in this intersection is proof Solaris hadn’t destroyed everything, thanks for sharing.

no it doesn't? he destroyed all of space time, in reference to all the other timelines, as this is the context to what eggman said that he would do, the space time intersection was already destroying itself, therefore the line would still be correct regardless

Eventually, he would have destroyed it. It doesn’t prove that Solaris’s immediate range is 2-A.

"eventually" is never said, stop adding words, it is said that he already did it, so again, moot point

If it affected people that activated the switch, the switch would be pointless because nothing could be done in the allotted frame of stopped time.

they are experiments, them being useful matters not here at all when they were being experimented to see if they would be useful, besides that, characters who didn't activated the switch can still talk and act, so again, moot point

And it’s common in fiction that when you activate a power you become unaffected by it, unless you want to say DIO gets resistance to his own time stop.

none of the chars activate it with their power, they activated a machine that stopped time, stop treating this as their own power

They’re both collections of the dreams of their respective multiverses

dream depot is only of a specific place

said dreams being contained in tiny orbs, guarded by ancient mystical beings and being threatened to have all the dreams changed to darkness by an evil force that would destroy the world. They’re pretty much the same.

superficial analogs at best, they are not relevant when the argument for one is completely different from the other, stopped using irrelevant similarities as evidence when the main point as to why one was downgraded has nothing to do with why the other was upgraded

I think they should be the main argument, considering it’s dreams which are inherently not real by default

you should really read the upgrade thread, maginary world makes the dreams reality, that was like, one of the main points

, you should prove they are visually Uni.

, and again, there is proof for them then to be uni, i have told you some of them already, but you should really address any of the upgrade thread's arguments, because so far you haven't

Prove he knows the exact dimensions of the universe, that’s never been stated.

you are seriously saying that the 300 iq super genius, who messes with space time often, who made reality ending altering machines, doesn't know what space time or a universe is? really? if both you and i know, then he would as well lol

Making the dreams come to reality doesn’t inherently mean the dreams are equivalent to their real world counterparts in size

that is exactly what it means acctually

, it can just mean they’re as big as the dreamer perceives them because that still brings the dream to life

"it can" any reason for it to be tho?

The constellations are not projections like the dream worlds, they’re part of the main 4D space and are blatantly not the size of real constellations.

if you are not talking about the dream worlds then i have no idea what you are talking about at all



anyway will go to sleep now, luckily be able to answer more tommorow

 

[Alexander]

Noted to have returned to his world from the Arabian Night and World of Camelot alternate realities."

But the problem is that we have no idea how he managed to get back, and it's unlikely that he did it on his own, since to go to those worlds he needed someone to bring him (By Shahra and Malenna)

Obviosly it was on is own, because if it was for shahra,then she Will have not Say that Sonic runned until he found his way back to his world.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

* Maginaryworld:

Recently, Dream Depot from Mario was downgraded due to not enough evidence that every dream was Uni, and I feel Maginaryworld is in the same boat due to how similar the two areas are.

I have yet to see any Sonic dream that is visually Uni. Chao in Space, the area you see when transitioning to minigames in Shuffle (1:00:03), at best we see one large galaxy or a sky full of stars, which is more like MSS-Galaxy.

The only other thing is statements about dreams having a Uni scope, but this would require the dreamer to have a 100% accurate scope of the universe in their head, which is frankly hard to buy. Especially for Joe Schmoe in Station Square. In fact, you straight up walk across constellations in seconds as normal size Sonic and friends while in 4th dimension space, which casts further doubt on the scope of the individual worlds.

That said, if there is an infinite amount of worlds to draw dreams from, MW would still be 2-A due to infinite separate 3D spaces under a 4D banner; for every other version of the non dream cosmology though, MW should be downgraded due to dreams not having enough evidence to be uni size for every single one.

Think that’s it for now, if I find enough other things I’ll make a separate thread for those or edit this one. Maybe I’ll make a buffing thread too.

Unless I’m missing something, Dream Depot didn’t get downgraded in that thread lol. I tried and had a lot of agreement for it but the topic & the Void ended up being too contentious and the thread went on too long until interest died. The only thing that got downgraded was the Dream Stone / Dreamy Bowser & anything for Dream Team which had a very different reasoning for its tier than the Sonic stuff.

I may or may not make another thread to go for Dream Depot & Void stuff in the future but as of now it’s not downgraded yet

 

[JJSliderman]

the magic barriers argument is nowhere close to why it is durability neg https://vsbattles.com/threads/game-sonic-crt-fighting-games-rivals-and-storybooks.125346/ read it, you should, either way, sonic can completely nullify the magic attack merlina launches, making them disappear by simply touching excalibur

Admittedly I didn’t pay attention to that part (although it really should be the crux of the power null argument since the barrier negation is pretty flimsy), but the dura neg is just taking a quote that Excalibur could cut through anything completely straight, presumably as “cut through anything in one shot”, which is kind of NLF when Sonic had already landed dozens of hits on Merlina prior to the final blow.

he literally is being hit

Shows no sign of being damaged whatsoever beyond being in range of the attack.

do we know its size? no, crisis city, an entire....well, city, is in there, with several other stages with numerous areas of soleana and beyond, it is very well shown to be bigger than "a few floating plataforms" that is very clear


as convenient and the chars being caught in a intersection in the first place, that is what happens, we must just accept it and move on

I’d argue it’s headcanon to say that every single Soleannan was somewhere we can’t see instead of just, being erased, given we don’t see them and it’s easier to say they were erased.

he affect multiple timelines at once simply by being birthed, as shown when silver's was affected, but wait, blaze's weren't, and when the text in the guide says that he already did that by the time the chars entered the end of the world stage, it is very clear what solaris did

Affecting two timelines =/= affecting infinite timelines, two is much less than infinity.

no it doesn't? he destroyed all of space time, in reference to all the other timelines, as this is the context to what eggman said that he would do, the space time intersection was already destroying itself, therefore the line would still be correct regardless

The intersection was being destroyed because Solaris was destroying it, that’s why his eyes were in the level sucking everything into oblivion.

"eventually" is never said, stop adding words, it is said that he already did it, so again, moot point

It never says he already did it, it just says “as he destroys”, implying this is happening concurrently, not before.

they are experiments, them being useful matters not here at all when they were being experimented to see if they would be useful, besides that, characters who didn't activated the switch can still talk and act, so again, moot point

How can an experiment be tested if time is stopped, including the measuring devices? And moreover the talking is just a scripted part of the game that always plays at certain segments of the stage, in areas arguably outside the reach of the switches, pure gameplay mechanics/ludonarrative dissonance.

none of the chars activate it with their power, they activated a machine that stopped time, stop treating this as their own power

They activate the switch directly with their own agency.

dream depot is only of a specific place

It specifically says it collects all dreams in Japanese, not just the Mushroom Kingdom.

superficial analogs at best, they are not relevant when the argument for one is completely different from the other, stopped using irrelevant similarities as evidence when the main point as to why one was downgraded has nothing to do with why the other was upgraded

They are straight up the same concept, arguing Maginaryworld is different makes no sense outside the existence of 4D space.

you should really read the upgrade thread, maginary world makes the dreams reality, that was like, one of the main points

And I think making dreams reality can just be accomplished by directly transposing the existing dream into a real setting without turning it into a copy of its real life inspiration.

, and again, there is proof for them then to be uni, i have told you some of them already, but you should really address any of the upgrade thread's arguments, because so far you haven't

The main points for being Uni are just a couple statements that dreams are very similar to reality (which isn’t evidence for Uni as reality can be any size), and the aforementioned statements of characters having uni scope wishes (but the dreams not being visually shown as Uni to back it up).

you are seriously saying that the 300 iq super genius, who messes with space time often, who made reality ending altering machines, doesn't know what space time or a universe is? really? if both you and i know, then he would as well lol

Obviously he knows what the universe is, why would he know it’s exact dimensions or topology though, unless he specifically mapped every inch of the universe? If there was literally any dream that showcased something beyond a multi-galactic scope it would make a stronger case.

"it can" any reason for it to be tho?

Is there any reason the dreams should parallel their real life counterparts exactly, when even the cosmology in the area transcending all these dream worlds doesn’t match the size of real world equivalents?

if you are not talking about the dream worlds then i have no idea what you are talking about at all

The 4D space game board, at certain points the characters reach what are clearly intended to be constellations in design, which are tiny.

 

[Theuser789]

*Durability Negation/Power null for Excalibur Sonic: False, he very clearly takes many swings to destroy barriers, this is just chipping away at a barrier until it breaks. Excalibur being able to cut through anything can simply be attributed to the sword being really sharp rather than negating durability.

Cutting through forcefields has nothing to do with durability negation. This just means Excalibur also has forcefield negation together with durability negation.

*Matter/Antimatter resistance for Sonic: Firstly, matter manip is pretty debatable to apply to Sonic to begin with, as the only explicit matter manip weapon in Shadow’s game is the particle beam cannon in the Blue Falcon and Heavy Dog fights, fights Sonic doesn’t appear in. But since Diablon is a superior model and has a laser with a similar color as the PBC, maybe you could argue a possibly.

I actually agree with this, yeah. Only Shadow should have it.

*2-A Chaos Control BFR: The argument is that since Blaze CC’d herself to a dimension that Solaris couldn’t reach with his time-space erasure, and since Solaris could affect all of space-time, and space-time consists of infinite dimensions, this means CC can send people outside the range of an infinite multiverse. I have…several issues.

This isn't the argument? I thought the argument was just that Chaos Emeralds have 2-A range in general because of beings that used their powers have 2-A range like Solaris. I don't think Blaze's dimension is that far from Sonic's.

*Layered time stop: The argument is that Chaos Control can affect Tails, who is unaffected by timeless areas in Cannon’s Core. Problem here is simply that the characters themselves are the ones activating the switches that create the timeless areas, so they are likely being offered protection (otherwise there’s no point to having these switches for the previous ARK creators). Yes, Eggman and Tails’s bullets can also activate these switches, but they are still connected to Tails and Eggman’s machinery.

This would stay because of characters like Shadow and Silver surviving in White Space but being affected by Chaos Control. But the rest of your argument is headcanon. We don't know that the switches offer "protection" to who activates it and any machinery connected to it. You're just making an assumption it does.

*Low-Godly regen for Shahra’s ring: This had a thread but was never applied, Sonic does not regenerate when his body is completely destroyed, so this isn’t low-godly. Just resurrection.

That are ways to die in Secret Rings that would definitively destroy Sonic's body.

Recently, Dream Depot from Mario was downgraded due to not enough evidence that every dream was Uni, and I feel Maginaryworld is in the same boat due to how similar the two areas are.

Even if this wasn't whataboutism, the Dream Depot didn't get downgraded, destroying all your arguments and credibility.

So I only agree with removing Sonic's matter resistance. Everything else is wrong

 

[Rokim21]

Agree with everything, especially the Solaris and Maginaryworld stuff.
Solaris didn't even have the time to fully destroy one universe, and Maginaryworld has no real evidence of storing anything but a countless amount of non-universal 3D spaces.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

2-A Chaos Control is because it allows Sonic to create portals to different universes, which would require 2-A range to reach (since we don't know how "close" are they)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Agree with everything, especially the Solaris and Maginaryworld stuff.
Solaris didn't even have the time to fully destroy one universe, and Maginaryworld has no real evidence of storing anything but a countless amount of non-universal 3D spaces.

Can you explain yourself? Since unless you got proof for your claims, they hold no water

 

[Rokim21]

Watching and reading the stories and dialogue of the games?
Solaris being anywhere above Low 2-C is headcanon/overexaggeration, the entire plot was a time travel mess with Solaris trying to re-fuse himself and attempting to destroy/take over an entire universe/timeline, in which he was stopped before he could do so (blatantly evident given the cast had time to retrieve the Emeralds and he was STILL there doing his space-time warping thing).

Maginaryworld is even worse of an example, with that entire blog upgrading it into 2B being "beings who dream of universal conquest dreaming of universal-sized dreams" with zero proof behind it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

proof where???

-

 

[Rokim21]

You are free to be my guest and watch the entire cutscenes around Solaris being reborn and fought, the sheer fact the dimension wasn't destroyed in the entirely of the Last Story is more than enough evidence:


As for Maginaryworld, looks like I was wrong on its upgrade, so I'll just retract my statement on it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You are free to be my guest and watch the entire cutscenes around Solaris being reborn and fought, the sheer fact the dimension wasn't destroyed in the entirely of the Last Story is more than enough evidence:

Except the intersection is literally not the same dimension as they were??? And even if everything you said was true (and it's not. We had countless crts about this and you didn't provide anything that wasn't already done to death), he'd still be 2-A by scaling above the Time Eater, who was confirmed to destroy the entirety of the Sonic Multiverse

 

[omegabronic]

Admittedly I didn’t pay attention to that part (although it really should be the crux of the power null argument since the barrier negation is pretty flimsy), but the dura neg is just taking a quote that Excalibur could cut through anything completely straight, presumably as “cut through anything in one shot”, which is kind of NLF when Sonic had already landed dozens of hits on Merlina prior to the final blow.

Why does him taking a lot of hits matter? Durability negation is not one shot by default

Shows no sign of being damaged whatsoever beyond being in range of the attack.

yeah, because his resistance is better to that point, why are you making me repeat myself by repeating yourself?

I’d argue it’s headcanon to say that every single Soleannan was somewhere we can’t see instead of just, being erased, given we don’t see them and it’s easier to say they were erased.

Why would the sonic cast be still there then? What makes them special? Not see =/= not there

Affecting two timelines =/= affecting infinite timelines, two is much less than infinity.

He already affected multiple timelines at once, to say that he was slow in affecting the others like you are claiming is factually wrong

The intersection was being destroyed because Solaris was destroying it, that’s why his eyes were in the level sucking everything into oblivion.

Any proof of this? We don't have information on this

It never says he already did it, it just says “as he destroys”, implying this is happening concurrently, not before.

Implied that this HAPPENED concurrently

How can an experiment be tested if time is stopped, including the measuring devices?

dunno, we don't have enough information to conclude anything, they maybe have an measuring device that is imune to time stop, maybe they have a suit that makes them immune, all we can do is speculate, there is no hard evidence for any option

And moreover the talking is just a scripted part of the game that always plays at certain segments of the stage

are tou going to debunk them talking now or....?

in areas arguably outside the reach of the switches

prove this baseless claim? The sound would still need to enter said "range" therefore it is irrelevant

pure gameplay mechanics/ludonarrative dissonance.

1 prove that and 2 Again with this? You can't just ignore everything you don't like because "gameplay lol" give me a factual reason in universe for them to be able to do that outside of external factors, most things in a GAME are due to gameplay, going tk remove every move only shown in gameplay as well?

They activate the switch directly with their own agency.

And none activate it with their own power, thanks for not covering my point at all

It specifically says it collects all dreams in Japanese, not just the Mushroom Kingdom

Will ignore this per @Kirbonic_Pikmin reasons

They are straight up the same concept, arguing Maginaryworld is different makes no sense outside the existence of 4D space.

you really didn't read what i said have you? Them being similqr concepts is completely, utterly IRRELEVANT, show me the arguments used to upgrade the dream depot, because they sure as hell are not looking similar to the ones used for maginary world at all

And I think making dreams reality can just be accomplished by directly transposing the existing dream into a real setting without turning it into a copy of its real life inspiration.

you can think all you want, prove it, give us a reason to go with that instead of the on the nose, direct, less assumptions interpretation of "the dream becomes reality" instead of "the dreams become reality, but not really, they gain a real life shadders and that's it" that you are suggesting

The main points for being Uni are just a couple statements that dreams are very similar to reality (which isn’t evidence for Uni as reality can be any size)

firsg strike, this isn't a main point at all

, and the aforementioned statements of characters having uni scope wishes (but the dreams not being visually shown as Uni to back it up).

they are, they have starry skies, galaxies and nebulae in them, they very much look universal, and the statements make it so a nail in the coffin

Obviously he knows what the universe is, why would he know it’s exact dimensions or topology though, unless he specifically mapped every inch of the universe?

why would he need that? his knowing how big it is is enough, even i can know the size of the estimated universe by googling, are you seriously telling me that the guy who went to space across the universe doesn't know? Like, tf is this point?

If there was literally any dream that showcased something beyond a multi-galactic scope it would make a stronger case.

it shows galaxies and nebulae, which is universal proof, not strong on its own, but corroborated with the statements makes it solidly universal

Is there any reason the dreams should parallel their real life counterparts exactly, when even the cosmology in the area transcending all these dream worlds doesn’t match the size of real world equivalents?

Because that is what they are stated to do? To make whatever it waa dreamed into full reality

The 4D space game board, at certain points the characters reach what are clearly intended to be constellations in design, which are tiny.

So some stage decorations are tiny, so every costelation are less than 20 meters in size, got it, you see the problem?

 

[Rokim21]

Except the intersection is literally not the same dimension as they were??? And even if everything you said was true (and it's not. We had countless crts about this and you didn't provide anything that wasn't already done to death), he'd still be 2-A by scaling above the Time Eater, who was confirmed to destroy the entirety of the Sonic Multiverse

This """intersection""" is literally JUST Solleana being affected by a rift in Space-Time (making it so people can traverse to other time periods), the Prima Guide literally says so.

"(...) and without Sonic to aid in the fi ght, all appears lost. However, at the urging of Sonic’s friends—and even Dr. Eggman, who was duped by Mephiles into facilitating the release of Iblis—a mission is mounted to search the far reaches of Soleanna for the Chaos Emeralds."

You can make as many countless CRTs as you wish, it doesn't change direct feats and written official evidence, it even mentions they are trying (and ultimately suceeded) at stopping Solaris BEFORE he could destroy all of space-time.
This is prime example of a being with Low 2-C capacities (being able to overtime destroy an universe, and affect a timeline through), not a Multiversal-affecting being.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You can make as many countless CRTs

Nah. What I'm saying was already accepted. It's you who have to try and prove otherwise, don't shift burden of proof

Also you seemed to completely ignore the fact that Solaris > Time Eater, another 2-A being

 

[Remus1998]

Nah. What I'm saying was already accepted. It's you who have to try and prove otherwise, don't shift burden of proof

Also you seemed to completely ignore the fact that Solaris > Time Eater, another 2-A being

I still fail to see how stopping Solaris committing omnicide debunks him being Multiversal

 

[Alexander]

I still fail to see how stopping Solaris committing omnicide debunks him being Multiversal

3 villains in attempted omnicide,none of them succeded

 

[Theuser789]

Can we leave the downgrade attempts for another thread? This one is bad enough as it is.

 

[JJSliderman]

Cutting through forcefields has nothing to do with durability negation. This just means Excalibur also has forcefield negation together with durability negation.

It’s not even negation of forcefields because Sonic takes many cuts to break through, in fact Sonic takes many cuts in general to defeat Dark Queen and a sword being able to cut through anything, does not mean it affects the opponent‘s durability. Any sword can cut through anything, in theory.

This isn't the argument? I thought the argument was just that Chaos Emeralds have 2-A range in general because of beings that used their powers have 2-A range like Solaris. I don't think Blaze's dimension is that far from Sonic's.

I mentioned Chaos energy having 2-A range in general, if that’s enough for 2-A BFR to stay then I’m fine with it, but I don’t think teleporting to a random dimension should be 2-A just because we don’t know how far away it is, if anything it should be 2-C or 2-B because we don’t know it was infinite distance and that has to be proven.

This would stay because of characters like Shadow and Silver surviving in White Space but being affected by Chaos Control. But the rest of your argument is headcanon. We don't know that the switches offer "protection" to who activates it and any machinery connected to it. You're just making an assumption it does.

Because it makes sense that the character who activated time stop would be protected from it, why would someone make a time stop switch that also stops the user, preventing them from making use of it?

That are ways to die in Secret Rings that would definitively destroy Sonic's body.

Such as? Even then, that’s not what we see in game, every time soul resurrection activated Sonic still has his body.

Even if this wasn't whataboutism, the Dream Depot didn't get downgraded, destroying all your arguments and credibility.

Even without DD there’s still almost no evidence for dreams being uni size beyond statements, and no evidence dreams are the same size beyond all of them appearing inside yellow orbs of similar size. Logically every dream being the same size doesn’t make sense as there is a clear dream hierarchy, shown by Frontiers’ with the Ancients dreams, which could only collectively make a universe (albeit a universe of potentially unquantifiable size).

 

[ShakeResounding]

It’s not even negation of forcefields because Sonic takes many cuts to break through, in fact Sonic takes many cuts in general to defeat Dark Queen and a sword being able to cut through anything, does not mean it affects the opponent‘s durability. Any sword can cut through anything, in theory.

We added Durability Negation because the official Arthurian legend is stated to be canon to the world of Camelot Sonic visits. Hence why Excalibur gets Durability Negation. Oh, and "Any sword can cut through anything, in theory" is incredibly dumb. That's obviously false, what even is this argument?

Even without DD there’s still almost no evidence for dreams being uni size beyond statements, and no evidence dreams are the same size beyond all of them appearing inside yellow orbs of similar size. Logically every dream being the same size doesn’t make sense as there is a clear dream hierarchy, shown by Frontiers’ with the Ancients dreams, which could only collectively make a universe (albeit a universe of potentially unquantifiable size).

Uh, yeah, this is misconstruing the context of Cyber Space in general. It's a digital, artificially-made dimension through sheer intelligence. What you're implying in this statement is that because they didn't each have their own Cyber Space, a realm that was artificially created through technology, that somehow disproves Maginaryworld's universal dreams? I don't even have to debunk this.

 

[JJSliderman]

We added Durability Negation because the official Arthurian legend is stated to be canon to the world of Camelot Sonic visits. Hence why Excalibur gets Durability Negation. Oh, and "Any sword can cut through anything, in theory" is incredibly dumb. That's obviously false, what even is this argument?

If you repeatedly slice back and forth on a material with a sword, eventually it wears down and you cut through it. Not to mention using the legend doesn’t exactly work when nothing in the legends was remotely as powerful as what Sonic faced. It could just cut through anything in the context of that story likely because it was stronger than everything else.

Uh, yeah, this is misconstruing the context of Cyber Space in general. It's a digital, artificially-made dimension through sheer intelligence. What you're implying in this statement is that because they didn't each have their own Cyber Space, a realm that was artificially created through technology, that somehow disproves Maginaryworld's universal dreams? I don't even have to debunk this.

No, but it should be proven why random Station Square civilians have the same dream potential as supergeniuses or decades old alien conquerors, or millennia old genies. Visually, no dream demonstrates anything beyond MSS-galaxy size, so arguing they’re the same is more a detriment to the Uni statement dreams actually being Uni. And when we do see cosmology in areas superseding the dream worlds, said cosmology is small enough for the normal size characters to walk across in seconds, showing they aren’t the same size as reality.

 

[Theuser789]

These arguments are actually genuily terrible, and nothing you replied to me is an actual response nor debunk, just you repeating what you said in the OP with different words.

Since you're incredibly stubborn in your nitpicks, and that stubbordness would lead to a ten page thread, I will just wait for more disagreements until this thread can be closed.

 

[omegabronic]

No, but it should be proven why random Station Square civilians have the same dream potential as supergeniuses or decades old alien conquerors, or millennia old genies.

all dream worlds are shown as relative to one another in shuffle, with them having the same side while being displayed side by side, the age or inteligence shouldn't really matter for what you are dreaming to become true, specially since it isn't the dreamer making it reality, it is illumina/precioustone, aka the godlike dream being, now please cover the question, why does the dreamer itself matters at all?

Visually, no dream demonstrates anything beyond MSS-galaxy size, so arguing they’re the same is more a detriment to the Uni statement dreams actually being Uni.

does having multiple galaxies disprove universal statements instead of supporting how?

And when we do see cosmology in areas superseding the dream worlds, said cosmology is small enough for the normal size characters to walk across in seconds, showing they aren’t the same size as reality.

again, decorations in a board somehow disprove the clear real size galaxies in the background how?

 

[JJSliderman]

all dream worlds are shown as relative to one another in shuffle, with them having the same side while being displayed side by side, the age or inteligence shouldn't really matter for what you are dreaming to become true, specially since it isn't the dreamer making it reality, it is illumina/precioustone, aka the godlike dream being, now please cover the question, why does the dreamer itself matters at all?

Because the dreamer is what supplies the dream to Maginaryworld, the worlds are made from everyone’s dreams, it would make sense to simply turn what we see in their dreams to reality wholesale than to say the dreams were drastically altered to the point they don’t match the original dream anymore

does having multiple galaxies disprove universal statements instead of supporting how? again, decorations in a board somehow disprove the clear real size galaxies in the background how?

If these constellations are not real size, what’s to say the galaxy in the background is real size too. And I do mean galaxy singular, I’ve seen nothing for multiple galaxies.

 

[JJSliderman]

These arguments are actually genuily terrible, and nothing you replied to me is an actual response nor debunk, just you repeating what you said in the OP with different words.

You gave no evidence for low-godly showing any scenario where Sonic regenerates without his body, or any justification why the Arthurian legend of Excalibur cutting through anything translates to being able to cut through any material no matter what instead of just Excalibur being really strong and stronger than anything else in the setting, you didn’t show anything for individual dreams having Uni visuals to justify dreams being Uni even when we have reason to doubt the statements because of the tiny constellations, and you didn’t show why dispelling the barriers is power null instead of just cutting through a barrier with chip damage, or how Solaris had destroyed the entire cosmology despite space and time as concepts still existing after Solaris was defeated.

 

[Theuser789]

You gave no evidence for low-godly showing any scenario where Sonic regenerates without his body,

I did, I talked about the times Sonic dies in the game where his body would survive and you just asked "uh, source?". In fact, you aren't even arguing against anything. You are just asking "uh, source?" Despite this being YOUR thread where YOU are the one trying to debunk what's on Sonic's page.

In fact, ALL your arguments are non-sequiturs where you just demand evidence in a thread you made as an entitled king asking for arguments and debunks.

That's all you do despite being a Sonic fan. You just demand stuff from others, nitpick research others did, while doing nothing yourself.

That's why I won't be going into a back and forth with you. It's all you demanding arguments and proof in a thread you yourself made. Someone who self-admitted is biased and does this because Sonic beats characters you "don't think he should".

I replied to the OP because they were actual arguments, your response doesn't so I am not replying to it.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Disagree FRA

 

[JJSliderman]

I did, I talked about the times Sonic dies in the game where his body would survive and you just asked "uh, source?". In fact, you aren't even arguing against anything. You are just asking "uh, source?" Despite this being YOUR thread where YOU are the one trying to debunk what's on Sonic's page

Because there literally isn’t a source for it on his page, I shouldn’t have to prove a negative (that being he can’t regen from his soul), you have to prove the positive (that he can regen without his body)

That goes for the entire segment really, it’s just people asking to prove a negative when that’s not how it’s supposed to work.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If you repeatedly slice back and forth on a material with a sword, eventually it wears down and you cut through it.

That is not even true. Try to cut diamond with a sword and tell me how well that went

 

[JJSliderman]

Okay yeah that was dumb, point still stands that if a sword is sharp enough and stronger than everything else around, it can still cut through anything without being dura neg.

 

[omegabronic]

Because the dreamer is what supplies the dream to Maginaryworld, the worlds are made from everyone’s dreams, it would make sense to simply turn what we see in their dreams to reality wholesale than to say the dreams were drastically altered to the point they don’t match the original dream anymore

the dream is supplied by the dreamer and what decides to make it reality is illumina, it doesn't need to alter anything, if someone dreams of becoming an sky rocket pilot it will simply make said dream true with the person in the dreams knowing how to fly said rocket even if said person outside of the dream doesn't know how a rocket works, the dreamers perspective is irrelevant when they are not the ones making the dream become real, and again, every dreamworld is shown similar in size and scope, so please stop ignoring the main point completely just because you have no answer to it

If these constellations are not real size, what’s to say the galaxy in the background is real size too.

better question, what makes you believe that a small decoration in a board of the game is the same as the clearly star sized stars in the background at all? and even then, one has nothing to do with the other, one element being small means nothing for the other unrelated element

And I do mean galaxy singular, I’ve seen nothing for multiple galaxies.

which is further proof that you didn't read the upgrade thread for maginary world

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Okay yeah that was dumb, point still stands that if a sword is sharp enough and stronger than everything else around, it can still cut through anything without being dura neg.

Context matters though. If a sword is said to be able to cut through anything, then it's certainly durability negation because it cuts anything regardless of how durable it is

 

[JJSliderman]

the dream is supplied by the dreamer and what decides to make it reality is illumina, it doesn't need to alter anything, if someone dreams of becoming an sky rocket pilot it will simply make said dream true with the person in the dreams knowing how to fly said rocket even if said person outside of the dream doesn't know how a rocket works, the dreamers perspective is irrelevant when they are not the ones making the dream become real, and again, every dreamworld is shown similar in size and scope, so please stop ignoring the main point completely just because you have no answer to it

Some dreams are very clearly not the same scope as others, Chao in Space has a vastly different scope compared to Firebird, and the screens demonstrating each world being a similar size should not inherently mean the worlds themselves are the same size. It’s like saying because two portals to two worlds are the same size, the worlds are the same size, it’s not a fair comparison.

better question, what makes you believe that a small decoration in a board of the game is the same as the clearly star sized stars in the background at all? and even then, one has nothing to do with the other, one element being small means nothing for the other unrelated element

Except these decorations are meant to represent actual collections of stars due to their status as constellations, and the star used as justification for greater heat resistance does not even appear to be the same size as a normal star, given the characters size relative to it

which is further proof that you didn't read the upgrade thread for maginary world

I posted the only image I could find that would remotely suggest multiple galaxies in the OP, and even then they can just be argued as part of a nebula.

 

[JJSliderman]

Context matters though. If a sword is said to be able to cut through anything, then it's certainly durability negation because it cuts anything regardless of how durable it is

That’s a NLF pretty sure, and Excalibur was only used in one fight, a fight that essentially played out like every other sword duel in the game in that you had to block attacks and soul surge. If Excalibur could truly cut through anything, it would just slice through the Deathcalibur swords almost immediately.