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The Dark Tower: Issues and Revisions

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1. Bessa being used to backward scale Gan is not how this works. Bessa scales to Gan, not the other way around. If anything, it would raise her tiering, and not lower his. Besides, if you really wanna go that way, you could say that that whole line is nebulous to use in the first place.

2. That, like I said, is assuming there needs to be other 1-As in the verse. Which is absurd. Transcending all story hierarchies (And this is a canon statement) would promote the idea that there's more than one "Outerversal" realm anyway, and they don't all have to be voids in particular.

3. That last line is in regard to transcending baseline 1-A. Which, if I recall, is simply

"Characters with no dimensional limitations"

Gan not only is not constrained by dimensions, but he transcends and precedes literally all fundamental concepts as well as all hierarchies beyond that. So I don't think it's too far-fetched to consider the possibility of High 1-A.

In fact, I'd be so far as willing to compare Gan to The Law of Identity, as both are stated to be the "author of all that is". She has someone who scales to her as well.

I'll agree that Tier 0 is off the menu due to it being unknown if Gan preceded the Prim itself or not, but I don't see any problem with High 1-A at all.

Oh yeah, Gan should have Transduality as well, as he was stated to be literally one with all that is. Doesn't need to scale to the Prim, but it can.
 
There can be an [[[[infinite^infinite^infinite^infinite^ (ad infinitum)]^infinite ]]^infinite^ [ad infinitum]]^ ---- (and infinite more levels of hyper-operations) more levels of infinity between two 1-A's of the slightest possible difference than a baseline 1-A to a 11-C, nevermind a freakin High 1-A.
 
Crzer07 said:
There can be an [[[[infinite^infinite^infinite^infinite^ (ad infinitum)]^infinite ]]^infinite^ [ad infinitum]]^ ---- (and infinite more levels of hyper-operations) more levels of infinity between two 1-A's of the slightest possible difference than a baseline 1-A to a 11-C, nevermind a freakin High 1-A.
Click to expand...
No offense, but that is hilariously wrong.

Technically speaking, the difference between baseline 1-A and literally any lower tier (even High 1-B) is so great that the human language likely cannot express it.

Baseline 1-A can be thought of as an inaccessible cardinal: it dwarfs everything before it combined and cannot be reached with mere extrapolation.

The minimum requirement for High 1-A is to transcend baseline 1-A to the sams extent that baseline 1-A transcends tier 11. Depending on the verse however, this may not be enough.
 
Aeyu said:
[clip]
Click to expand...
1. If there's no evidence of her being above baseline (and there isn't), then she's considered to be baseline. Recursively scaling her upwards to Gan to justify the latter being High 1-A is the route that's "not how it works", not when one of the largest reasons he would even be considered 1-A is because he apparently meets basic requirements for such.

2. The "trancending all story hierarchies" statement, if I'm remembering the right line, goes a little something like:

"No writer is Gan - no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan.......The prophets of Gan."
~ The Dark Tower​
Which is merely the speaker saying that every writer who exists in the Tower is channeling Gan's power. I completely fail to see how this implies there are multiple outerversal realms that Gan transcends.

3. He's above a High 1-B level of these concepts, as said concepts are contained within the Tower. Many 1-A characters predate their verse's High 1-B concepts, but you don't see all of them jumping up to High 1-A based on that. And there's nothing suggesting any true 1-A hierarchies besides "Gan >>>>>>> Bessa, who is 1-A".

Akuto Sai's 1-A justification:

"Outerverse level (He has created every story that can be described. These include stories with people like Akuto himself that can create stories, and as such form an infinite hierarchy.)"

So prior to being taken into the Law, he was already in possession of better feats than what Bessa has shown. And as for the Law itself:

"At least High Outerverse level (It transcends and controls all stories, including the afterlife with Akuto Sai in it. It lies in its nature to be at the top of all hierarchies of stories, within which there can be higher-dimensional and beyond-dimensional structures. While she has stated that there are some things she does not know, it is unknown whether that statement constitutes a true limitation or not)"

Prior to him being taken into the Law, it literally transcended and controlled Akuto's realm to the same degree that Akuto himself transcended everything else.

Gan being the "author of all that is" is in reference to the existence contained in the Tower. We know that he didn't create anything beyond that, because everything else that existed prior to the Tower predates him as well. In fact, we learn in Sheemie's Tale that there was an entire civilization of monsters and other creatures swimming around in the Prim who existed prior to Gan's emergence. Moreover, the statement of Gan being "the author of all that is" comes from Bill Denbrough, who is wholly incapable of understanding a 1-A level of existence.

So comparing the two situations is a pretty massive false equivalence.

I'm still opposed to High 1-A, and I don't see myself changing my opinion on that. What evidence we have, generally scarce as it is, points to a level far lower.
 
@Azzy

If he could be, in that he matches a lot of the criteria to be that, then a "Possibly" should be considered, as that's what that's for. As for proper evidence, transcending all story hierarchies and being called the "author of everything" as well as being extremely metafictional sounds compelling enough reasons to me.

Or maybe "At least 1-A" to account for the very high possibility that he could be vastly higher than what's shown. I'm just historically not a fan of ignoring higher end interpretations in some verses while others use only high-end interpretations.
 
Also, in relation to CK, I still think he should have a "Possibly/Likely 1-A" for it being said that he's a part of Gan, like Bessa. Not only this, but if Black Thirteen contains all of the evil in the Darkness, you could argue that it could very likely contain at least some of the power of entities from the Prim who are dimensionless, and thus I think that a "Likely" after his "High 1-B" or "At least High 1-B" is appropriate regardless.
 
Become the strongest said:
He should equal to Gan due to his personality, Gan's dark side.
Click to expand...
No.

1. It's made clear that Gan is leagues above Dis in terms in power, far from the least of the evidence being the fact that Dis in his entirety is trapped within Gan's mere physical manifestation.

  • Adding onto this, if Dis were comparable to Gan, then he wouldn't need outside entities to destroy the Tower in order to escape from his "cell" at the top. He'd be able to do so by force.
2. Maerlyn stated that magic the King/Dis lent one of his emissaries was not stronger than his own, and that the only reason said magic even worked on him was because he was drunk.

3. Being another character's "dark side", on it's own, doesn't always equate to being as powerful as said character.
 
@King

"Not only this, but if Black Thirteen contains all of the evil in the Darkness, you could argue that it could very likely contain at least some of the power of entities from the Prim who are dimensionless, and thus I think that a "Likely 1-A" after his "High 1-B" is appropriate regardless"

(Note that it would only be with Black Thirteen, and not scale to his actual form)
 
None of the entities of the Prim are full-on confirmed to be dimensionless besides Gan, though. And the fact that the ones that didn't die from inability to adapt are now literally held in check by the Beams (as is stated in Sheemie's Tale) doesn't help that case at all.

Not to mention, Black Thirteen is the Crimson King's eye. Whatever rating it gets almost certainly scales to his true form. (Assuming said rating doesn't wind up being below Tier 1, which it really shouldn't be at this point)
 
@King

Okay, first of all, how do we know that beings in Todash are controlled/restricted by the Tower at all? How do we know that's not just referring to those beings that survived in the various realms created by the Prim's recession? Furthermore, why does the Prim receding not further support the Tower not being at a higher level, since it was the Tower's coming into existence that made the Prim recede in the first place? (And the Prim is very much a dimensionless void)

Furthermore, it seems a bit strange to say that none of the beings that existed before the Prim's recession could be 1-A since Gan clearly comes from its depths. Furthermore, if the concept of things like "dimension" and "size" didn't exist in the soup before the Tower, and the Tower supports those concepts, how could those beings (The ones before the Prim's recession) be dimensioned anyway, if the concept of dimensions itself doesn't exist yet? This can only mean that Gan's power was able to reduce possible 1-A entities to dimensional ones, and that would put him above multiple 1-A beings. I still think that at the very least a "Possibly" 1-A should be strongly considered for CK, because it seems like we're purposely taking every lower-end interpretation without considering any of the higher ends. This is why "Possibly" and "Likely" exist. Furthermore, since the Tower is empowered by Gan, even if the King were 1-A at his most powerful, it follows that he could still be trapped by the Tower. This is supported by the Tower being spun from Gan's navel (Which you already know) as well as housing his spirit at the top room (Which Roland encountered in the Coda)

And before you say "But a High 1-B can't even affect a 1-A", 2 things: 1. They can if they're empowered by the spirit of a 1-A, which Gan definitely is, and 2. This sort of thing has happened in other verses, like Umineko (Affecting outerversal structures at a level far below 1-A). Furthermore, we accepted before (and currently do since it's still on the profile) Bessa being able to empower other beings with the ability to get rid of High 1-B beings. Now, I still agree with that being removed, but my point remains that under specific circumstances, the ability to affect outerversal structures at a level below that is possible. The fact that CK is trapped at an upper level of the Tower, when Gan's spirit is canonically said to be at the top "Rising to the Godhead", only supports this further. Under these parameters, we can very logically assume without it being a stretch that it's Gan's will that keeps CK imprisoned at the top of the Tower, and not necessarily the Tower's structure itself. If Gan can weaken other 1-A beings to the point of being dimensioned (The concept of dimensions didn't exist before the Tower), then I definitely think he could keep the King imprisoned in a High 1-B structure, even if CK's true power is at a weaker level of 1-A. The "crazy side" thing is only a supporting thing for that at that point.

TL;DR, the beings existing before the Prim don't necessarily have to be "confirmed" to be dimensionless, since dimensions don't exist before the Tower, which does follow. King can scale to 1-A based on this when "unrestricted", and the strongest beings within Todash Space may have retained their power from the Prim's recession.

Furthermore, Todash Space is said to be "outside" the Macroverse, as shown in this scan (The only one I can find so far)

2936356-its battle with the ritual of chud 4
 
Not to be offensive or anything, but lot of this seems to have been taken out of context, or is simply lacking sufficient amounts of such to begin with.

"Okay, first of all, how do we know that beings in Todash are controlled/restricted by the Tower at all?"

  • Said beings state as much themselves. (Sheemie's Tale)
"Furthermore, why does the Prim receding not further support the Tower not being at a higher level, since it was the Tower's coming into existence that made the Prim recede in the first place? (And the Prim is very much a dimensionless void)"

  • The Tower coming into existence actually wasn't what caused the Prim to recede. It was the Beam Guardians who caused that, actively. (Sheemie's Tale, again)
  • You yourself have said before that the Prim is never confirmed to be undimensioned, just primordial. The only evidence we have of it being undimensioned is it existing prior to the Tower and Gan arising from it, which doesn't mean very much when it's implied that A) Gan's creation is made from the entirety of the Prim's waters, and B) Gan is several orders of magnitude superior to that which birthed him.
"(A High 1-B) can (affect a 1-A) if they're empowered by the spirit of a 1-A, which Gan definitely is"

  • The thing about "Gan's spirit animating the Tower" just means that Gan is the one in control of it, which is the case with any being and its avatar. That doesn't mean said avatar has all of the power of its source. Not at all.
"(The concept of dimensions didn't exist before the Tower)"

  • Not confirmed. The quote involving Gan setting the Beams states that they are meant to "maintain the alignment" of dimension alongside the other concepts within the Tower, not that they are the reason said dimensions exist in the first place. This was one of the issues we found in the justifications the first time around, and it still holds.
    • The quote about "maintaining the alignment" of dimension, in conjunction with the todash monsters' statement that the Beams are keeping them imprisoned, appears to point towards said beings having already been dimensioned in the first place.
    • The above point about Gan's creation being made from the Prim's waters also adds weight to this.
"Furthermore, Todash Space is said to be "outside" the Macroverse, as shown in this scan"

  • The bit about "the nothingness that lies Outside"? In-context, Pennywise is referring to the void it resides within in relation to Bill Denbrough's universe (as in "the nothingness that lies Outside" his universe), which falls perfectly in-line with Todash Space's later description of being the space between all universes.
Yeah.
 
Also, just as a fair warning, things are starting to grow busy for me IRL, so I'm most likely going to be absent for the next few days. I might be able to check on things every so often, but I'm not betting on it. (Was the major reason why my response took so long)
 
1. You're gonna need to provide quotes for context, and furthermore, as I said, the Tower consigns the concept of dimensions itself anyway, due to encompassing all size and concepts otherwise. It's silly and arbitrary to discount something because it doesn't directly mention a dimensionless void. Not all 1-A's are defined by voids.

2. And I've taken back that argument, which for some reason you're dearly clinging on to, as it's flawed and being unnecessarily arbitrary (not to mention downplaying on my behalf). The Prim, and indeed Gan, are both at a higher perspective than the Tower, which contains both infinite dimensions and layers. It doesn't need to be confirmed that the Prim is dimensionless if the Tower encompasses all concepts of size, because size in and of itself is linked to the existence of dimensions, as they are greater and greater sizes relating to spatiotemporal axes. Encompassing the concept of an infinitely layered creation with further infinite dimensions means that nitpicking over "maintaining the alignment" is unnecessary, because it's very clearly inferred that it encompasses these concepts, further adding weight to the fact that since the Prim is at a perspective conceptually beyond infinite dimensions, it stands to reason that its beings were lowered into dimensionality, something which isn't impossible by the standards of our Wiki

3. Gan spun these concepts from his navel, though. The Tower and the Beams keep their existence tied together. If anything the Beam Guardians could be up to 1-A with their hax (Affecting Outerversal structures, again). It's also said that the Beams arose from the Prim similar to Gan, so...

4. It never says Gan was made from the Prim, only that he arose from it.

5. "Just means Gan is control of it"

Yes. And his power is that of a 1-A. My point with him being the reason the King is restricted still stands.

And no problem, take your time. These are complex issues anyway and deserve to be sorted out to avoid any future misunderstandings.
 
Welp, I hope when you come back, King, that we can finish this thread. I hate to leave it hanging for over a damn month.
 
Gan, Bessa, The Crimson King should be 1-A/High 1-A.


All Cthulhu Mythos Outer Gods are 1-A/High 1-A just because they exist outside of High 1-B multiverse.


I think we should upgrade King Mythos Gods or downgrade Lovecraft Mythos Gods except for Yog Sothoth who contains everything within itself.
 
It's a shame, too. I've compiled a far better series of arguments for why the Tower should be 1-A and by extension CK, mostly due to reality-fiction differences in the Steps of the Tower. I'd also really like to conclude this thread at some point, as we at least all agreed that the current ratings were somewhat inaccurate from the book perspective (Although I think that the comics/alternative media should still be represented)
 
"The room" at the top of the tower exists "above all of endless reality". I think that makes Crimson King base 1-A and by extension Gan above base 1-A
 
I think the best thing to do at this point is simply to make another thread about revisions to the statistics for the Dark Tower God Tiers.
 
So what are the conclusions here?

Asking Azathoth to comment again would probably be a good idea in any case.
 
@Ant

Well, we do at least agree that the ratings of the Dark Tower God Tiers need to be changed. To what, though, is still uncertain.

I can go to Azathoth's message wall and get him to comment here some more, unless you would rather that Aeyu do so.
 
You can ask him if you wish.
 
@Zach

I think you can make a case for each step being 1-A, as it could be seen as a reality-fiction difference. I still maintain that the tower encompassing size, dimension, and other concepts (actually, all concepts and possibilities) does make it, in a way, Platonic, and that it contains rooms being above "endless reality", which would make it a distinct possibility, at least in my mind.
 
We need more input from Azathoth.
 
Ratings that high seem unlikely.
 
I personally have no issue with Gan being 0, since he created and is transcendent of a structure that likely encompasses infinitely-infinite levels of 1-A (each Step within the Dark Tower has infinite layers and views the previous Step as mere fiction) along with all concepts and possibilities, and is stated to "transcend all story hierarchies". He also lacks any weaknesses or comparable/greater beings.

As for High 1-A, I think Bessa deserves it, for several reasons:

  • Just like Gan, she is completely beyond the confines of the Tower.
  • She created an infinite field of roses around the Tower, with each rose being comparable in complexity to the Tower itself (or was it a single Step of the Tower?).
  • She is able to comprehend Gan and oppose his will, even if to a limited degree.
You could argue that the last thing is a limitation for Gan, but even then, Gan would still be High 1-A and Bessa would qualify for At least 1-A.

In any case, it would be best to wait for Azathoth, as Ant said.
 
Has anybody asked Azathoth to comment here yet?
 
That seems unlikely unless there were beyond-dimensional realms in every step of the tower, and each such realm is fiction to the next step.
 
There's also multiple stairways in the Tower, potentially infinite. I can grab some scans.

Also, essentially, a big portion of the argument was whether or not Todash Space (which the Tower encompasses, and may also contain 1-A beings by merit of having within it the more powerful Prim demons who were not reduced before the Prim's recession [the Tower encompasses the concept of dimensionality, which Gan aligned in the Tower], as well as being a void that's literally outside of reality, itself having infinite^infinite^infinite dimensions or more, and encompasses "all life and possible experience", similar to a Type IV multiverse.) is 1-A.
 
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