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The Dark Tower: Issues and Revisions
- Thread starter MrKingOfNegativity
- Start date
- Status
- 85
- 9
I tried, why you dont ask him maybe he will reply if it's you.Antvasima said:
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The number of people who think the Dark Tower should be upgraded is growing, may we stay open?Antvasima said:
Warhammer Gods have been upgraded after a long time.
Thanks.
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- Thread starter
- #246
For the record, I'm still thoroughly against any High 1-A or 0 ratings at all, as I still see no sufficient evidence of such.
If I'm able to be around by the time the (inevitable) next CRT is made, I'll explain further. Although I'll be perfectly honest, it seems like a lot of people have flat-out ignored what I've already said and posted within the last few threads relating to the issues regarding this verse's profiles, since things that have already been addressed have been getting brought up repeatedly since I left.
Also:
If I'm able to be around by the time the (inevitable) next CRT is made, I'll explain further. Although I'll be perfectly honest, it seems like a lot of people have flat-out ignored what I've already said and posted within the last few threads relating to the issues regarding this verse's profiles, since things that have already been addressed have been getting brought up repeatedly since I left.
Also:
...We already decided that the comics and other media would still be used. Half of the last batch of comments I posted in this thread some months back contained scans from comics and guidebooks.Aeyu said:
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To reiterate the cosmology of The Dark Tower:
- A single universe holds infinite universes, which each hold infinite universes, that themselves hold infinite universes, and this repeats ad infinitum.
- There is an infinite hierarchy of such universes in a single Step of the Tower.
- There are infinitely many Steps in one Stairway, each Step having a reality-fiction difference.
- There are infinitely many Stairways.
- The Tower contains all of this and most likely transcends it as well ("Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size").
- Gan, by his very nature, transcends the Tower.
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- Thread starter
- #248
"There is an infinite hierarchy of such universes in a single Step of the Tower."
This is the part that requires a direct statement, because I've yet to come across one at any point, and to my knowledge, it is wrong.
The quotes I've seen thus far (Including the ones linked within the last few CRTs relating to this verse) describe the steps/floors of the Tower as simply being their own separate layers, where an entire universe found on one floor is contained within a single atom found on the floor above.
That's it.
"There are infinitely many Stairways."
This one is definitely wrong. There is exactly one stairway in the Tower, and it's the one we see Roland climb at the end of the series.
From the Coda of DT7: The Dark Tower:
He raised his hand as if to knock, but the door swung open of its own accord before he could touch it, revealing the bottom steps of an ascending spiral stairway. There was a sighing voice — Welcome, Roland, thee of Eld. It was the Tower's voice. This edifice was not stone at all, although it might look like stone; this was a living thing, Gan himself, likely, and the pulse he'd felt deep in his head even thousands of miles from here had always been Gan's beating life-force.
Commala, gunslinger. Commala-come-come.
And wafting out came the smell of alkali, bitter as tears. The smell of…what? What, exactly? Before he could place it the odor was gone, leaving Roland to surmise he had imagined it.
He stepped inside and the Song of the Tower, which he had always heard — even in Gilead, where it had hidden in his mother's voice as she sang him her cradle songs — finally ceased. There was another sigh. The door swung shut with a boom, but he was not left in blackness. The light that remained was that of the shining spiral windows, mixed with the glow of sunset.
Stone stairs, a passage just wide enough for one person, ascended.
"Now comes Roland," he called, and the words seemed to spiral up into infinity. "Thee at the top, hear and make me welcome if you would. If you're my enemy, know that I come unarmed and mean no ill."
He began to climb.
In fact, part of The Man In Black's speech at the end of The Gunslinger confirms both of the things I've said...
From the Coda of DT7: The Dark Tower:
"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
"Size, gunslinger... size.
"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...
"You dare not."
And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.
I'm not trying to be condescending or anything here, but these two misconceptions might be part of our problem.
This is the part that requires a direct statement, because I've yet to come across one at any point, and to my knowledge, it is wrong.
The quotes I've seen thus far (Including the ones linked within the last few CRTs relating to this verse) describe the steps/floors of the Tower as simply being their own separate layers, where an entire universe found on one floor is contained within a single atom found on the floor above.
That's it.
"There are infinitely many Stairways."
This one is definitely wrong. There is exactly one stairway in the Tower, and it's the one we see Roland climb at the end of the series.
From the Coda of DT7: The Dark Tower:
He raised his hand as if to knock, but the door swung open of its own accord before he could touch it, revealing the bottom steps of an ascending spiral stairway. There was a sighing voice — Welcome, Roland, thee of Eld. It was the Tower's voice. This edifice was not stone at all, although it might look like stone; this was a living thing, Gan himself, likely, and the pulse he'd felt deep in his head even thousands of miles from here had always been Gan's beating life-force.
Commala, gunslinger. Commala-come-come.
And wafting out came the smell of alkali, bitter as tears. The smell of…what? What, exactly? Before he could place it the odor was gone, leaving Roland to surmise he had imagined it.
He stepped inside and the Song of the Tower, which he had always heard — even in Gilead, where it had hidden in his mother's voice as she sang him her cradle songs — finally ceased. There was another sigh. The door swung shut with a boom, but he was not left in blackness. The light that remained was that of the shining spiral windows, mixed with the glow of sunset.
Stone stairs, a passage just wide enough for one person, ascended.
"Now comes Roland," he called, and the words seemed to spiral up into infinity. "Thee at the top, hear and make me welcome if you would. If you're my enemy, know that I come unarmed and mean no ill."
He began to climb.
In fact, part of The Man In Black's speech at the end of The Gunslinger confirms both of the things I've said...
From the Coda of DT7: The Dark Tower:
"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
"Size, gunslinger... size.
"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...
"You dare not."
And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.
I'm not trying to be condescending or anything here, but these two misconceptions might be part of our problem.
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Hrm. It seems as though my sources were incorrect.
Very well then. Until Aeyu comes in to clear things up, I'll just take your word for it.
So, um... from what I'm understanding, the Tower simply contains an infinitely-layered multiverse, and the Todash Darkness that is between and beyond it.
I'm uncertain about the true nature of the Todash Darkness and whether or not it qualifies for 1-A. Regardless, it does seem to exist outside of the infinitely-layered multiverse, but is still contained within the Tower.
Once again though, I refer you to the statement about the Tower encompassing size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was agreed that a property of 1-A is that it is above the concept of size.
Very well then. Until Aeyu comes in to clear things up, I'll just take your word for it.
So, um... from what I'm understanding, the Tower simply contains an infinitely-layered multiverse, and the Todash Darkness that is between and beyond it.
I'm uncertain about the true nature of the Todash Darkness and whether or not it qualifies for 1-A. Regardless, it does seem to exist outside of the infinitely-layered multiverse, but is still contained within the Tower.
Once again though, I refer you to the statement about the Tower encompassing size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was agreed that a property of 1-A is that it is above the concept of size.
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So should we wait for Azathoth?
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@MrKingOfNegativity
Pretty good to see you again, as I trust your judgment, especially with things such as this.
@Everyone
Anyway, I guess to reiterate what I've said before:
Pretty good to see you again, as I trust your judgment, especially with things such as this.
@Everyone
Anyway, I guess to reiterate what I've said before:
- I think 1-A Gan (as in true Gan) is perfectly acceptable. I do not, however, think the Tower is 1-A.
- Los' is in need of a serious downgrade. I remember we agreed upon this but can't remember if we ever finalized his tier.
- I have no idea what to think about the other/"true" Crimson King, but I don't think him being High 1-B is out of the question. I just don't know what to think. I don't think he has sufficient evidence for 1-A, though.
- Too many individual power-related things have been discussed for me to properly remember or restate my opinions on.
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We should wait for Aeyu too.
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He implied he's coming back relatively soon
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My personal suggestions
Crimson King: avatar is unknown, true self is "at least high 1-B, likely 1-A, as he can manipulate the prim which is likely a beyond dimensional realm"
Gan and bessa: Just simply 1-A, with true godly Regenerationn
Crimson King: avatar is unknown, true self is "at least high 1-B, likely 1-A, as he can manipulate the prim which is likely a beyond dimensional realm"
Gan and bessa: Just simply 1-A, with true godly Regenerationn
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Aeyu still not come back?
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Huh? What?
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- Thread starter
- #264
That is legitimately unfortunate.
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She got banned for being a part of that one Discord from a while ago.ZacharyGrossman273 said:
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Isn't she?
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I've just been off. It's not just the stuff that happened here (which no doubt was stressful), irl stuff has made my activity rather scarce.
Anyway, the Tower can be inferred to exist in multiple different forms, like the Rose and the Talisman from that duo of books. IIRC, it's mentioned to have an infinite number of variations (and hence an infinite number of stairways), but I could be wrong. I'm still convinced that the Tower should be 1-A for encompassing realms like the Todash which exist outside of reality and house Prim creatures which predate dimensionality that survived the rescinding, as well as being beyond size, conceptualization, and dimension, but if others won't budge then there's not much I can do about that. I still think that the tiers that the comics/other media would portray deserve their own keys, as well, or their own profiles.
Anyway, the Tower can be inferred to exist in multiple different forms, like the Rose and the Talisman from that duo of books. IIRC, it's mentioned to have an infinite number of variations (and hence an infinite number of stairways), but I could be wrong. I'm still convinced that the Tower should be 1-A for encompassing realms like the Todash which exist outside of reality and house Prim creatures which predate dimensionality that survived the rescinding, as well as being beyond size, conceptualization, and dimension, but if others won't budge then there's not much I can do about that. I still think that the tiers that the comics/other media would portray deserve their own keys, as well, or their own profiles.
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Todash Space maybe? I'm not quite sure of its function
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The tower being 1-A I could buy, but Todash space is definitely not 1-A, it's what pennywise is from
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So what about Gan?
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Gan is definitely 1-A and likely the crimson king as well
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Pennywise is from the Deadlights, which is a region of Todash, yes, but it stands to reason that there are dimensionless regions as well. Furthermore, even if Pennywise *did* exist in the bulk of Todash, being in a dimensionless void doesn't immediately make you dimensionless.
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- Thread starter
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We never figured out what Los' tier should be.Antvasima said:
Other than that, I'm not sure. It's been too long for me to remember everything that got tossed around in this thread.
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And whether gan is possibly 1-A or just solid 1-A
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- Thread starter
- #280
We already pretty much decided that Gan is 1-A at the bare minimum, a while back.
Some were arguing for High 1-A or 0, but I'm pretty sure that's folded now.
Some were arguing for High 1-A or 0, but I'm pretty sure that's folded now.
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