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The Dark Tower: Issues and Revisions

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Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I assume then, assuming Todash Space has shown or said to be between every layer of the Tower, its entirety would be High 1-B, parallel to the Tower itself.
Click to expand...
Hm, alright. That makes sense to me.

As for a statement or showing, we have information on "going todash", which is the act of traveling between any of the worlds held within the Tower while leaving a place for yourself in the realm you started in. If you fail to make it from one universe to the other, you fall in-between and wind up in Todash Space.

Combine that with the worlds themselves. There's some evidence that Roland's world/universe is located inside one of the purple blades of grass that Jake comes across in a vacant lot in New York. (during The Waste Lands) So going todash/traveling between worlds actually ca involve traveling to one of the many higher and lower floors of the Tower.
 
@MrKing

Definitely sounds like Black 13 would be High 1-B then, which would make Dis a notably higher degree of High 1-B, which would fit with its position of imprisonment.
 
I think that there's a lot of cloudiness about the tier that needs to be cleared up or misconceptions will continue to happen.
 
I agree with Aeyu tbh.

There seems to be a lot of just stipulations and what ifs we can add to this that it would really be nice to define 1-A far more concretely.

We have a blog for omnipotence, I think the same for 1-A and maybe High 1-A would be nice, especially for new visitors who don't know what the tier even is.
 
As a guy who recently admitted that I have no clue where High 1-B ends and 1-A begins, I think they may actually have a point.
 
I tried to articulate this more some months ago but all I did was agitate I feel like. (which was never the intention)
 
1-A is not transcending space, time, matter and energy but rather the idea and concept of them in itself altogether. it is a meta-meta-abstract, beyond meta-philosophical "thing" which is as far as it can possibly be put in human words, whatever it is
 
I think that that is a poor definition as it leads to arbitrary-ness and a poor line of what makes something like that or not.
 
I agree, though I think it's more a matter of clarification of certain aspects than anything else. What the current 1-A definition lists is all true. It's just that there are things and scenarios which could arise that it doesn't clarify.
 
Space/time/matter/energy and the idea and concept of existence/reality is but a minute infinitesimal permutation of what "is/isn't", to which "1-A" of this wiki tiering system is the one and only thing in the world so far available to put it to ascription.
 
@Crzer

I kind of think that definition is arbitrary. Having things be about philosophical/metaphysical mumbo jumbo is always going to lead to arbitrary opinions as to what qualifies. That was my problem with the "Characters that have no dimensional limitations, in the realm of metaphysics" definition in the past.
 
Alright, so if I'm summarizing this correctly.

  • Gan is 1-A by his own merits
    • The Tower is High 1-B, also by its own merits
  • Dis is High 1-B for numerous reasons
    • Black Thirteen is High 1-B, also for numerous reasons
  • Los' is Unknown for now
We all agree on this?

Also, where does this place Bessa?
 
@MrKing

Sounds about right (God I wish Los' had more concrete things about what he can actually do).

I assume Bessa's tier depends on if you want to say she 100% scales to Gan or not. If we say that, she'd just be 1-A. If we say we don't know for sure, I imagine her current tier is fine, with "possibly" maybe getting swapped out for "likely".
 
Still don't understand how the Tower doesn't qualify for At least High 1-B if it transcends the things it embodies (It encompasses the concept of size. Dimensions...well, are a size)

I think Bessa is reliably solid 1-A if she's comparable to Gan, which she is. The Rose is a lynchpin of existence just like the Tower, the Can Ka' No Rey field of Roses surrounds the Tower, and Bessa is the only god or power which can oppose Gan's will.
 
@Azzy:

The issue with Los' is that a lot of shit regarding him is...well, contradictory. There's plenty of info on him; its just mind-numbingly incongruous with itself.

Conversely, we done know much of anything about Bessa, but what we do know is pretty straightforward. She was born from a small drop of Gan/the Tower's blood and life essence, her avatar is a multiversal constant similar to his own, and she has the power to oppose Gan's will and alter fate. And is the only being besides the Crimson King/Dis who can actively do so. (She's technically stated to be the only "deity" who can alter a person's fate, but for whatever reason, the texts don't seem to consider Dis a "deity" so much as gigantic force of evil. And unlike her, he actually has a feat of altering a person's fate.)

None of that really tells us what realm of power she's in, though. She's obviously either High 1-B or 1-A, but beyond that, the specifics are blurry.
 
  • "Still don't understand how the Tower doesn't qualify for At least High 1-B if it transcends the things it embodies (It encompasses the concept of size. Dimensions...well, are a size)"
"Transcends itself" is not justification for a High 1-B construct possibly being higher.
 
It's not that it "transcends itself," it's that it encompasses the concepts of size, space and time, and is already shown to have infinite spatial dimensions as WELL as layers in its steps. Unlike other stuff we've disagreed on, I genuinely do not understand your reasoning here.
 
I'll go through it again.

The Tower has infinite layers/dimensions.

It encompasses all of these and holds them together.

This is High 1-B.

The Tower itself is not "fully transcendent" of any of this in the same way something like Gan is.
 
Yes, but it encompasses these concepts. As in, it's the reason for these concepts to exist in the first place. It also encompasses Todash Space and has a door *inside* of it which houses "The Godhead".

It has infinite dimensions AND infinite layers, as well.
 
I don't remember that ever being stated. Just that it holds these things together. The Tower is never shown to be entirely beyond these concepts.

I also don't remember this being stated. It has infinite layers, which would require infinite dimensions, but it's not like it has an infinite number of dimensions within finite layers.
 
"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows."

Right after this:

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?"

This doesn't cover the statement about infinite higher spatial dimensions in regard to the Big Combination much later, so it's safe to assume that there's both infinite dimensions and infinite layers, as every atom has an infinity of multiverses inside of it, rising to infinite levels (The steps of the Tower)
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I also don't remember this being stated. It has infinite layers, which would require infinite dimensions, but it's not like it has an infinite number of dimensions within finite layers.
Click to expand...
This one actually comes from Insomnia, although people here have been interpreting other quotes to mean this even though they really, really shouldn't.

Basically, the "floors" described in Insomnia are different from the ones described in The Gunslinger. They act as higher planes of existence that stretch upwards as infinitely as the physical universes and floors do, and each one of these planes is incomprehensible and untouchable to the one below.

It appears as if these ones are tied to the individual universes though, since even when ascending to one of these higher planes, Ralph Roberts, Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos and everyone else are still within the surroundings they left behind in the lower levels. That said, it's never really stated, and whether or not the beyond-physical floors of one universe are connected to those of every other universe is never fully elaborated upon. (I don't think...)

Mia also claims that there is an entire "invisible world" below the Demon Elementals who exist opposite the Beam Guardians, which contains all of the creatures which were "left on the beach of existence when the Prim receded". With full context in place, the implication is that she's referring to the floors that are mentioned/shown in Insomnia.

Interpret that info however you will.
 
Idk, all of this just screams "At least" to me. Last I checked "At least" didn't mean "1-A", just vastly higher than what a High 1-B normally is (which the Tower definitely is)
 
Just as a warning, I'm stepping out for now so that I can get something done IRL. So if anything else winds up being directed at me, I won't be here to answer until later.
 
Aeyu said:
Idk, all of this just screams "At least" to me. Last I checked "At least" didn't mean "1-A", just vastly higher than what a High 1-B normally is (which the Tower definitely is)
Click to expand...
Traditionally, "At least" would denote that this is a minimum value, while what the Tower is described as is still "just" High 1-B. With infinite layers stacked atop the base requirement for High 1-B still being High 1-B, it's extremely possible for one High 1-B entity to be superior to another.
 
Infinite layers and a possible transcendence of the concepts by its own abstract nature of being part of Gan being what the justification would be.
 
I know this question had been asked for many times but i want to ask. Why Gan cant on tier 0? And can someone give me condition to be tier 0? Sorry about my english.
 
The most I could support Gan being is High 1-A, because we don't know for sure if he preceded the Prim, just that he "arose" from it. But he is noted to stand above all stories and hierarchies and is called "the author of everything", with all stories in existence said to exist metafictionally within the DT verse. In fact, I don't know why we haven't been talking about High 1-A for Gan, he seems to match all the criteria.
 
I'm too tired to get into it right now, but I definitely do not agree with High 1-A Gan.
 
@King

Care to elaborate why without just being dismissive?

@Sandman

That's definitely not why I would argue High 1-A; it's because he's unequalled in the verse and is above all story hierarchies.

Unless you're implying you can't be High 1-A without 1-A's existing first.

Which is absurd.
 
I'm going to sleep right now, but if I'm to clarify as best as I can right now:

  • Take note that being infinitely superior to a regular 1-A character, does not automatically make another character qualify for a High 1-A rating. The ones that do qualify would recurrently be equivalent to Tier 0 characters, if not for the presence of one such being within their respective franchises, and/or some minor limitation. As such, characters with serious weaknesses cannot be High 1-A. To further clarify, a High 1-A should be so much higher than baseline 1-A characters that it can not be estimated or comprehended from their perspectives. That is, to even be considered for High 1-A, a character must at the very least transcend baseline 1-A characters in the same manner that they exceed tier 11.
Even if we're generous and give Bessa a 1-A rating (which is already debatable), she would only be considered baseline thanks to the sore lack of evidence that she's anything higher. Gan clearly does not transcend her "in the same manner that (she) exceed(s) tier 11"; they consider each other husband and wife, with both quite explicitly being able to perceive each other in at least some sort of dim manner despite their differences in power and place of existence. This on top of the fact that she wouldn't be able to oppose his will if there were such a plain and major difference between the two of them that he would be considered High 1-A, as his will would simply be too far out of her depth for her to oppose.

Do we see Pralaya properly opposing the will of the Overvoid? Do we see Hypnos properly opposing the will of Yog-Sothoth? No.

And that's saying nothing of the fact that High 1-A characters (judging by history) require transcendence beyond an outerversal realm in addition to the regular transcendence that's apparently prerequisite for a 1-A rating. Gan does not have this going for him. We don't have any evidence in DT that whatever outerversal void in which Gan resides is beyond any other outerversal voids, or beyond anything at all besides the Dark Tower itself.

So no, I don't think Gan is High 1-A. The sources don't point to that on their own.
 
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