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The Big Bad Genshin Verse Revision (Maybe)

Pikaman

Pikaman

He/Him
6,525
5,210
OK

So a lot has happened recently in the Genshin General Discussion thread and abilities, scaling, calcs etc have all been brought up and questioned so here is a little thingy to vote on everything in Genshin right now and if it should stay, go, be added etc. before we then decide what to do with the results

key:

✅ = Agree votes
❌ = Disagree votes
➖ = Neutral Votes

Green text = Currently Agreed

Red text = Currently Disagreed/Opposed

Grey Text = Currently Undecided/Neutral

Purple Text = Split Descision/Tie

So here we go, vote on the ones you feel strongly about and let’s see the direction we want to take Genshin in.

CURRENT CALCS

Links attached of course
Speed:



COMMON PLACE ABILITIES

These are abilities and powers that are shared by most if not all of the Genshin Cast

Summoning and limited Telekinesis ✅ 1 (@Nelliels) ❌ 5 (@Naitodesu @Pikaman @Jackpact @Mariogoods @Wdinatx) ➖1 (@RatherClueless)

Elemental Intangibility ✅ 3 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @TheGreatJedi13) ❌ 1 (@RatherClueless) ➖3 (@Jackpact @Naitodesu @Wdinatx)

Forcefield Creation ✅ 5 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @Jackpact @RatherClueless @Wdinatx) ❌ 0 ➖1 (@Naitodesu)

Disease Manipulation ✅ 4 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @Jackpact @Expectro2000xxx) ❌ 3 (@RatherClueless @Naitodesu @Wdinatx) ➖0

Empathic Manipulation ✅ 4 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @Jackpact @Expectro2000xxx) ❌ 3 (@RatherClueless @Naitodesu @Wdinatx) ➖0

Enhanced Senses/Extrasensory Perception

Resistance to Disease Manipulation ✅ 6 (@Nelliels @Jackpact @Naitodesu @Expectro2000xxx @TheGreatJedi13 @Wdinatx)❌ 2 (@RatherClueless @Pikaman) ➖0

Resistance to Empathic Manipulation ✅ 6 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @Jackpact @Naitodesu @Expectro2000xxx @TheGreatJedi13 @Wdinatx)❌ 2 (@RatherClueless @Pikaman) ➖0


SCALING

These assume that the associated calcs all turn out fine, so please do not factor the calc itself into your vote here, but its usability in a scaling chain

Razor Scaling for Low and Mid Tiers ✅ 1 (@Pikaman) ❌ 3 (@RatherClueless @Naitodesu @Jackpact) ➖ 2 (@Nelliels @Wdinatx)

Guhua Scaling for Mid Tiers

Beidou/Xiao Beisht Scaling ✅ 1 (@Jackpact) ❌ 3 (@RatherClueless @Naitodesu @Jackpact) ➖ 3 (@Pikaman @Nelliels @Wdinatx)


OTHER

Just other stuff discussed we might want to consider, the most prone topic here to additions in terms of what can be voted on, so please do suggest anything you think might work!

Waster Greatsword’s Mountain Busting Might ✅ 1 (@Pikaman) ❌ 1 (@RatherClueless ➖1 (@Wdinatx)

Resistance to Mind Manipulation/Corruption ✅ 3 (@Naitodesu @Jackpact @Wdinatx) ❌ 0 ➖ 0

Elemental Intangibility associated abilities e.g. Flight ✅ 0 ❌ 2 (@RatherClueless @Pikaman) ➖ 1 (@Wdinatx)

Changing Summoning/Telekinesis to Weapon Control ✅ 5 (@Pikaman @Naitodesu @Jackpact @Mariogoods @Wdinatx) ❌ 0 ➖ 0

Aura ✅ 1 (@Nelliels) ❌ 0 ➖ 1 (@Wdinatx)

Madness Manip for Karma ✅ 2 (@Jackpact @Wdinatx) ❌ 0 ➖ 0

Resistance to Karma ✅ 2 (@Jackpact @Wdinatx) ❌ 0 ➖ 0


This is obviously all capable of change but that’s all I can think of right now, so uh, hope this helps in deciding what direction to take the verse!
 
Last edited:
Gonna make a proper reply later. The speed feat was straight up rejected. From a scaling and from a clac perspective. Dunno why it's still here.
 
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The speed calc relies on game mechanics and players own timing so that's not acceptable.



Im unsure about all the scaling so I'll be neutral till I see arguments for why people scale to each other or don't.

I agree with all abilities
 
Well this have to come eventually seeing how Rather is, well i agree with all of the ability, on the fence with elemental intang, i don't see what's wrong with Xiao/Beidou scaling so i guess agree with that, the rest is eh.
 
Ha this crt is totally not going to be a mess. I'll get my popcorn in advance
 
The speed calculation is currently not used on the character profiles but is still listed on the verse page, so we might want to discuss that.
 
Formatting makes this very hard to read sadly.

In any case, what's the justification for those abilities? Been a good few weeks since I last played the game, but I don't remember most of them? Any scans or something?
 
Confluctor said:
Formatting makes this very hard to read sadly.

In any case, what's the justification for those abilities? Been a good few weeks since I last played the game, but I don't remember most of them? Any scans or something?
Click to expand...
disease and empathic manip and resistance due to elemental energy having that kind of effect at a concentrated amount as demonstrated from Smaragdus jade to people without visions. the crt was here
Forcefield creation
Telekinesis is from limited telekinetic control of their weapons as shown in game
enhanced senses and extrasensory was from using elemental sight
 
Calculations & Scaling
Powers and Abilities
  • Summoning and limited Telekinesis
    • Given Weapon Control is already a thing, this should be changed to reflect this
  • Elemental Intangibility
    • Neutral, but moreso depends on the nature of elemental sprints
  • Forcefield Creation
    • Neutral, leaning on agree if we're choosing to standardize Vision abilities
  • Disease Manipulation
    • I'll need further clarification on this
  • Empathic Manipulation
    • Same as above
  • Enhanced Senses/Extrasensory Perception from Elemental Sight
    • I'm okay with giving these to Vision Users, although some seem to lack it despite having Visions so I'd be careful about standardizing this
  • Resistance to Disease Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation
    • With some of the latest World Quests, this should be changed to also reflect Madness Manipulation Type 1 as prolonged exposure seems to also turn other people insane and delusional
Here are some others that I would propose including with the Chasm Quest:
  • Resistance to Mind Manipulation, Corruption
    • The Traveler and presumably most Vision users seem to be averse to the vision-giving powers of the Dark Mud that drives others insane and corrupts things it touches
 
Last edited:
Naitodesu said:
    • The assumptions are fine and so is the calc, but the scaling is questionable, why do Jean, Eula, and the others scale to this?
Click to expand...
The assumption is a 360* rotation of the sword. At best a 180 is fine to assume since a sword is swung like that normally then someone doing a whole spin.
 
Yea I prefer 180 it makes more sense considering its a sword slash. And I'm unaware of the scaling to scale others to it.
 
  • Razor's storm calc.
    • The calc itself is fine, but I disagree for different reasons.
    • The animation is rather odd with how the clouds appear and disappear, that in and off itself isn't the issue.
    • The clouds immediately disappearing implies he not only created them for basically no reason, exerted additional energy to get rid of them right after
    • If this was Lisa's spell, I'd still kinda get scaling it, as she actually summons a lightning from the clouds. Razor doesn't. There is nothing that relates his AP to the storm
    • Shared energy source isn't really an argument here, as that would even more so imply that the creation of the storm was pointless.
  • Guhua leveling a bamboo forest with a casual sword swing.
    • Ok, first of all, it wasn't casual. No indication of that
    • Next up, assuming it was a shock wave in shape of a dome makes no sense. It's a slash, not an explosion.
    • Assuming the largest bamboo forest in the world makes no sense
    • Assuming a 360° slash is weird, but then I remembered how the 4 stars do charged attacks, so maybe that's actually fine
  • Shenhe freezing a tsunami
    • Strongly disagree with scaling it to the map and not the characters and objects around. It's just needlessly inflating stats. Not to mention that map scaling is all over the place anyways, with proportion of parts of the map greatly varying.
  • Prime Barbatos' effortless landscaping of Mondstadt
    • Very iffy about pulverization or even violent fragmentation.
    • I also question whether it happened all in one attack
    • Guess I am neutral on this one.
    • One more thing, the assumptions used to determine the size of the mountain range are really . . . weird and in part false. Says that the Himalayas have 37 peaks when they have over 100. The Alps have over 500. It also assumes that all these mountains are standing separate from one another, which is also weird.
  • Barbatos' casual lifting of the biggest known mountain in Teyvat
    • Mostly neutral, but I think that almost 2km is a pretty absurd assumption. I doubt he lifted it over Dragon Spine
  • God Andrius creating and sustaining a country-sized blizzard
    • We don't assume the 1600km anymore.
    • Neutral otherwise
  • The Raiden Shogun splitting Yashiori Island
    • See the above
    • Strongly disagree with scaling the width of the gorge with the map, as we have structures such as bridges crossing it and roots spreading across. 37km width makes no sense here.
  • Jean dodges lightning
    • The calc is so wrong on so many levels it hurts. Already debated all this in the appropriate thread and the calc was rejected both in terms of scaling, as well as from a pure calc perspective. It shouldn't even be here.
  • Summoning and limited Telekinesis
    • I am still somewhat iffy about it, since outside of game play we have characters like Kaeya not using swords, Amber forgetting her bow and Paimon asking the traveler about this specific ability, as if she never saw it, even though at that point they already met other vision users.
    • On the other hand Amber pulled out a bow "out of nowhere" in the manga at a later point and we see Diluc use it in an animation.
    • Neutral until we get anything concrete
  • Elemental Intangibility
    • Strongly disagree.
    • The only evidence for it are gameplay visuals contradicted by their descriptions which don't even necessarily imply elemental intangibility.
    • There are several cutscenes in which we see characters traveling within their element, rather than turning into them, which is supported by in game descriptions.
  • Forcefield Creation
    • While they do have it, I hate how we act like they can just pull it up whenever there is an incoming attack
  • Disease Manipulation
    • I don't think there was a statement that all elemental energy inflicts this.
  • Empathic Manipulation
    • See above
  • Enhanced Senses/Extrasensory Perception
    • This shouldn't be on as many profiles as is. Elemental sight is pretty rare even among vision users iirc.
  • Resistance to Disease Manipulation
    • They resist the energy, which can have this side effect. Not the disease itself
  • Resistance to Empathic Manipulation
    • See the above
Let me add one more. Flight. Complete head canon.

  • Razor Scaling for Low and Mid Tiers
    • I already have an issue with the calc, so no. Not to mention that his feat is more impressive than Lisa's, who should not only scale above him, but a good chunk of the human cast.
  • Guhua Scaling for Mid Tiers
    • There is nothing we can really use to scale him
  • Beidou/Xiao Beisht Scaling
    • Hard no. Beidou specifically says that the rumors about her, which includes the one that she can cut mountains in half, are wrong. Haishan having the might of a Deity means nothing, as there are Deities such as Havria. The fact that she and her fleet were almost wiped out by Beisht isn't helpful either.
    • Xiao might scale to Beisht, I guess.
  • Waster Greatsword's Mountain Busting Might
    • Clearly hyperbolic. Like it says in the actual description, it is simply a statement about how it is about the wielder, not the weapon. If even a great martial artist (assumed to be an Adepti) can't achieve a feat with a superior sword, I don't see why we take this at face value.
Should be it for now
 
RatherClueless said:
  • Resistance to Disease Manipulation
    • They resist the energy, which can have this side effect. Not the disease itself
  • Resistance to Empathic Manipulation
    • See the above
Click to expand...
That can still be added so as long as it's not treated as a catch-all resistance. Though Biological Manipulation works better than Disease or Empathic Manipulation in this case, as the madness, illness, etc., can be treated as side-effects
 
RatherClueless said:
Enhanced Senses/Extrasensory Perception
  • This shouldn't be on as many profiles as is. Elemental sight is pretty rare even among vision users iirc.
Click to expand...
I was the one who made the thread for adding Elemental Sight to the profiles and every character who got it directly through that CRT has a reason for having it despite not all Vision users having it, so unless there are characters who got it after the conclusion of that thread without proper evidence everything should be alright regarding that.
 
Also chalk me up on disagree on Disease and Empathic Manipulation going based off Clueless' description and understanding off it. The fact that Vision Users use elemental energy for their attacks does not necessarily mean they can directly manipulate it, let alone use it in a manner similar to Smaragdus Jadeite
 
That’s a lot of votes to put together, will try to have this updated by tomorrow

also, considering the overwhelming resistance to the speed calc and the fact it shouldn’t be there in the first place, I’m chalking it off when I make the changes
 
Also, I’ll be adding some votes off of context clues, please inform me if I’ve put your vote down incorrectly
 
Anyway, with all the more extravagance reply, guess i need to give my actual opinion on thing.

Calc: Don't care about them much so chalk me up to whatever side is dominating the topic.

Abilities:
Summoning and limited telekinesis: I mean, there aren't anything that contradict it, gameplay or lore so i don't see why it can't be apply, tho like Nato said, we should change it to weapon control.
Elemental intang: just want to say that all those time when the characters "cover" themselve look more like they turn into it, Razor lightning flash is pretty much animated to look like a normal anime lightning not some kind of person cloak in it, while Tartar could be argued the movement and the way it's animated, once again look more like he turned into it then cloak. Tho i would say that from machine translation, the cloak ablity say hidden into the element then turn into a torrent that move so take that as you will.
Barrier: They have it and can pull it up to counter attack as seen with Amber but we could just limit it to 2 use as seen with Amber too, altho in the same chapter we see her pull out some fire to block one of Barnabas attack but was still stunned a bit by the attack so it's either another more compacted barrier or Vision holder can also just use their element and not just elemental energies as barrier which wouldn't be the first since first phase Tar technically errect a full water barrier instead of one that's transparent like Amber, his second phase and Raiden.
Empathic and disease manip: it just said concentrated elemental energy so vision holder could still have it due to using their elemental attack, but it should be noted to be side effect to their attack (not something they can manipulate) which logically should be concentrated elemental energies, if you guys aren't convince then atleast Geo since it was said by Yanfei that she saw traces of geo elemental energies so atleast Geo chars should have it as side affect to long term exposure to their elemental attack.
Enhanced sense/extrasensory sense: aside elemental sense being limited, i don't recall instance of vision holder just simply have better sense that aren't naturally or trained, tho all vision holder could see oculi which is completely invisible to normal people so i guess they all could still have a form of extrasonsory sense or something?
Resistence to Empathic and disease manip: i think this should be fine as vision holder is just straight up resistance against it (not immune as Raiden show) and the deslusional Guhua disciple show a clear case of empathic manip, tho he does seem to also just have artifical memory so does that count for anything since he just doesn't have a change in personality but just straight up have ****** up memory.
Resistance to mind manip and corruption (Nato idea): Sure, until Mihoyo decide to copy FGO and make Alter Chars then i guess this is fine.
Scaling:
Razor: no opinion.
Beidou/Xiao Beisht: Agree.
Guhua: no opinon.

Tho don't know why Nato propose changing Disease and Empathic manip to just bio manip, care to elaborate for us?
 
Last edited:
As the one who added the empathic and disease manip (crt here) want to remark that the description already make very clear that they don't directly control diseases or emotions but that high concentrations of elemental energy have those effects, it's also said that Vision users don't fall victims of said effects so the resistances are fine, think of it like in any other verse where the energy used have side effects, the soul energy from Bleach or Innocence from D-Gray Man for example, the use of said energies grant said haxs and resist said energies grant said resistances.
 
Last edited:
As one of the people who was present with the Jade CRT.
Yes the resistance is fine. Saying they dont resist those because its from elemental energy is like saying you dont resist bleach fear manip even with resistance because its from soul which is not how we do it. beside arguing whether its because of this and that is just for thread vsdebates. We list their PA section based on whether its notable enough to be added and simply explain their properties in their description and with scans so i dont see how they should at least have resistance.and biological manip was rejected by antvasima and some other and was instead suggested to be disease instead


Although wording could be fixed to inducemet rather than manip and i agree that might have been overlooked
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Lmao rejected was a strong word but hes the one that suggested disease instead of the other
Click to expand...
Okay, didn't thought that he have such capabilities, no offense to him ofcourse but i never saw him voice his own opinions in any thread that i read so it's surprising to see him actually say something that doesn't sound like a script.
 
Jackpact said:
Okay, didn't thought that he have such capabilities, no offense to him ofcourse but i never saw him voice his own opinions in any thread that i read so it's surprising to see him actually say something that doesn't sound like a script.
Click to expand...
I actually saw him express opinion multiple times already on things but very rarely. But he does.
 
Im not really sure about the calc since majority of them i have not seen nor read when their argument is being brought up.onky during the jean lightning calc which i already think is kinda scripted to be at the highest end.(using tall characters and cicin mage lightning) rather than actual c to g lightning that is available in the game.

Though i agree on clueless that lisa clouds thingy since she actually uses them unlike razor which is at best environmental destruction so a bit iffy on that.

Shenhe freeze calc i agree with it.

Intangbility i agree but also would agree with just limited intang

As for sensory stuff i agree with nehz since he's the one that convinced me regarding only handful of people having it.

As for using lore distance or in game distance for calc .im more into lore than in game because things dont make sense in gameplay perspective most of the time. With exception to cutscenes which is where im still pondering whether cutscene or lore take precedent
 
For what it's worth, Razor was taught how to use his vision by Lisa and he can summon cloud to ground lightning but it isn't in his elemental skill, so i guess we could put him at a possibly if the majority don't believe that Razor scale directly since it does have some ground just not solid proof.

Also about the distance, i may have some idea on the lore accurate one but i need to comb through thing a bit and i'm more for the lore size, might look pretty stupid if we use it to scale to the bigger cutscene but we take what we got (since spear that were considered to be as tall as a mountain to be only like 80-100m tall sound weirder).
 
Last edited:
Jackpact said:
he can summon cloud to ground lightning but it isn't in his elemental skill
Click to expand...
Was that actually stated somewhere?

Anyways, about elemental intangibility. If you wanna look at cutscenes to see this, the best one is by far the traveler saving Thoma

About the resistance to disease/empathetic manip. These characters can still get sick or get corrupted (Chongyun catching a cold on Dragon Spine; The traveler getting corrupted when facing Scaramouche). They resist this very specific power which has these side effects on people who don't have it themselves. Not the actual disease or empathetic manip.
 
Not rly. At the end of the day your immune system still has to deal with it. If it's just symptoms of a disease, rather than an actual disease, it's biological manipulation instead.

Edit: If it's not actually physical (like getting a rash or swellings, but just headaches, muscle pains, etc), it might even just be mind manip tbh
 
RatherClueless said:
Anyways, about elemental intangibility. If you wanna look at cutscenes to see this, the best one is by far the traveler saving Thoma
Click to expand...
First of all, what point is there against it? Either the traveler did turn into lightning but as we see in all of the instance, they can't interact with their surronding any more than what is shown so they have to turn back to normal to catch it, or they speed themselve up and jump toward it like they did after throwing the shuriken, it's either the former or the other, nothing really contradict it.
RatherClueless said:
About the resistance to disease/empathetic manip. These characters can still get sick or get corrupted (Chongyun catching a cold on Dragon Spine; The traveler getting corrupted when facing Scaramouche). They resist this very specific power which has these side effects on people who don't have it themselves. Not the actual disease or empathetic manip.
Click to expand...
The first example is bad cause he stayed in there for HALF A DAY and under extreme temperature too, not to mention his own internal temperature due to his consitution, something like that is far beyond what a normal person can take, not to mention Dragonspine is extremely harsh with how the nail from Celestia altering the weather and Durin remain possibly ******* it up even more. The traveler got mind haxed and drained of stamina due to Orobashi wrath, it speak less about traveler resistance and more about it potency then anything, even if it isn't potency, Scara said that it feed on our anger and boy were we piss off and was ready to kill him (story would end there) so the thing potentecy would be amped up.

So all of the time that the chars does get affected by said thing, it's either because it come from a more powerful source or the circumstance just cause the thing to exacerbate more than what the resistance can handle.
 
All updated, if you see your vote has been placed wrongly or not counted please let me know, though some votes that share minor concerns are marked as ❌ in order to allow for said concerns to be involved when the next phase of discussion comes around.

e.g. “I’m generally fine with x but the y part of it is a bit off” will probably be marked as ❌ for “x” so that I can look back at a later date and know there are problems with “x”, which allows me to go back, find the complaints about “y”, and bring them up.
 
Put me in as disagree as well for the general scaling of low-tiers and Beidou scaling, also I still don't really get why Empathic Manip and Disease Manip are on there given this is something we've never seen them actually do nor are they capable of it, it soulds like NLF
 
You know what? Put me on disagree for guhua and low tier scaling, also change me to disagree on the Beidou scaling, I would also say no to all the calc (bar Shenhe and Venti landscaping since those are good enough) too but it's going to be a long time till we have any new calc so i will stay neutral on all those.

The basis for the Disease and Empathic is cause all of their elemental attack would be able to slowly do it as a side effect, since a stone with nothing but concentrated elemental energies was able to do it with prolonged exposure, do note, prolonged esposure (like atleast a day), and since the fight would normally not last that long and chars wouldn't normally just spam the shit out of their abilites, it wouldn't come into play most of the time.
 
Hence i believe it would be better to just list it as inducement of specific effects rather than manipulation.
 
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