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Greetings fellow Vs. Debate Nerds, at long last I bring you the prelude the long awaited Universe level revisions. Keep in mind this is just the beginning, a general discussion to get the blood flowing. That means we should be only discussing the topic of the universe itself and not what verses may or may not be affected by this. Should this proposal be accepted, I'll make a follow up thread for discussing and organizing the actual revision project. Thank you for your patience.
Introductio
As discussed on threads prior to this, there is debate as to whether or not fiction generally differentiates between 3-A and Low 2-C, 3-A and High 3-A, or High 3-A and Low 2-C. While one could lean to either or, the general assessment that because we don't know if a character is referring to the general
The true issue with this practice comes from one simple fact. That is not the definition of universe.
Definition of "Universe"
There are many definitions of Universe.
The modern definition of the word "Universe" is:
"All of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy."
Google simply defines Universe as:
"All of matter and space"
Marvel defines Universe as:
"A dimension containing space, time, matter, and energy."
The (simplified) mathematical definition of Universe is:
"A four-dimensional time-space".
Any standard Japanese dictionary defines Universe as:
" Õà¿ÒüªÒü«µÖéÚûôÒü¿þ®║ÚûôÒÇüÒüèÒéêÒü│ÒüØÒüôÒü½ÕɽÒü¥ÒéîÒéïÒé¿ÒâìÒâ½Òé«Òâ╝Òü¿þë®Þ│¬ÒÇéÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïþë®Þ│¬Òéäµö¥Õ░äÒéÆÕîàÕ«╣ÒüÖÒéïþ®║ÚûôÒÇéÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïþë®õ║ï´╝êµú«þ¥àõ©çÞ▒í）ÒéÆÕɽÒéÇÕà¿ÒüªÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇé"
"All time and space, and the energy and matter contained therein. A space that encloses all matter and radiation. Also includes all living creatures and all things."
^This is relevant because most anime will follow this definition. "Uchu" and "Bansho" refer directly to Low 2-C level feats.
So what do all these definitions have in common? Three words. Space. Time. Matter. Often energy is thrown in there as well.
Therefore the Universe is literally defined as all of space, time, matter (and energy). Our debate is whether or not fiction differentiates between 3-A and Low 2-C, so let's move on to the observable universe.
The Observable Universe a.k.a the Known Universe
The observable universe is define as:
"The spherical region of the universe comprising all matter that can be observed from Earth or its space-based telescopes and exploratory probes at the present time".
Another common and more simple definition is:
"The region of the universe that can be observed from Earth or through it's space-based telescopes."
For reference, the observable universe is composed of 2 trillion galaxies spanning roughly 100 billion light years. This sounds like a low-end rather than a baseline for "all of space and time". Decades ago it was only 100 billion galaxies (which is now only considered our local supercluster). Even before that, the Milky Way was considered to be the known universe at the time.
The point being made here is the observable universe is only a region of the actual universe, it should not qualify for something we consider a baseline. Therefore, I suggest we do some meddling about to provide a more accurate alternative.
Proposals
There are a few propositions in dealing with this.
The simplest and arguably most effective solution is to stop treating the observable universe as the baseline for what we consider to be a universe. The observable universe is literally a region of the Universe. Interpreting "I'll destroy the universe" as "I'll destroy the region of the universe you know about" in a verse where the observable universe isn't even acknowledged (and doesn't follow real life cosmology) is bad practice because there is no evidence they are talking about only the known region of the universe. So the observable universe would instead be considered Low Universe level due to it being only a region of the actual Universe. This can be applied in many ways which include but are not limited to:
A. Make 3-A "Low Universe level" specifically for feats that involve the observable universe. Keep High 3-A and Low 2-C the same. This is a fast solution but is not exactly the most accurate.
B. Probably the most scientifically accurate solution is to merge High 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite three dimensional space is more relevant than mere four dimensional time. Time without space is meaningless and therefore treating a temporal dimension as superior to a spatial dimension attack potency wise is pretty bad and we've been ridiculed for it for ages, one of the ridicules I begrudgingly agree with. Keep in mind we would be putting universe level feats at whichever tier designation we keep, High 3-A or Low 2-C. 3-A will still become Low Universe level.
C. Merge 3-A to 3-B and make High 3-A baseline Universe level (meaning remove High 3-A as a tier, make it 3-A but keep High 3-As description). I'm not too fond of this one as it still treats four-dimensional time as superior to its counterpart which it is dependent on to even be relevant but veteran dimensional tiering users might prefer Low 2-C be left alone.
D. Merge 3-A to 3-B and merge High 3-A and Low 2-C into the new 3-A. Same as before but without the differentiation between time and space as anything meaningful.
E. The simplest application of them all would be having the tiers themselves will be left alone, but all universal feats are Low 2-C until proven otherwise rather than being 3-A.
There are more proposals but I'll reveal them as we discuss so to not overwhelm everyone with just my own thoughts. Others should feel welcome to propose similar or different suggestions to this endeavor.
Reminder
This is just an open discussion to get all the ideas thrown out there. This is not the official revision. Again, the actual organized revision will be posted shortly following this one should we agree that the current standards for Universe level need to change. Please keep this discussion on topic as I'm not making another one for open discussions.
Introductio
As discussed on threads prior to this, there is debate as to whether or not fiction generally differentiates between 3-A and Low 2-C, 3-A and High 3-A, or High 3-A and Low 2-C. While one could lean to either or, the general assessment that because we don't know if a character is referring to the general
The true issue with this practice comes from one simple fact. That is not the definition of universe.
Definition of "Universe"
There are many definitions of Universe.
The modern definition of the word "Universe" is:
"All of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy."
Google simply defines Universe as:
"All of matter and space"
Marvel defines Universe as:
"A dimension containing space, time, matter, and energy."
The (simplified) mathematical definition of Universe is:
"A four-dimensional time-space".
Any standard Japanese dictionary defines Universe as:
" Õà¿ÒüªÒü«µÖéÚûôÒü¿þ®║ÚûôÒÇüÒüèÒéêÒü│ÒüØÒüôÒü½ÕɽÒü¥ÒéîÒéïÒé¿ÒâìÒâ½Òé«Òâ╝Òü¿þë®Þ│¬ÒÇéÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïþë®Þ│¬Òéäµö¥Õ░äÒéÆÕîàÕ«╣ÒüÖÒéïþ®║ÚûôÒÇéÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïþë®õ║ï´╝êµú«þ¥àõ©çÞ▒í）ÒéÆÕɽÒéÇÕà¿ÒüªÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇé"
"All time and space, and the energy and matter contained therein. A space that encloses all matter and radiation. Also includes all living creatures and all things."
^This is relevant because most anime will follow this definition. "Uchu" and "Bansho" refer directly to Low 2-C level feats.
So what do all these definitions have in common? Three words. Space. Time. Matter. Often energy is thrown in there as well.
Therefore the Universe is literally defined as all of space, time, matter (and energy). Our debate is whether or not fiction differentiates between 3-A and Low 2-C, so let's move on to the observable universe.
The Observable Universe a.k.a the Known Universe
The observable universe is define as:
"The spherical region of the universe comprising all matter that can be observed from Earth or its space-based telescopes and exploratory probes at the present time".
Another common and more simple definition is:
"The region of the universe that can be observed from Earth or through it's space-based telescopes."
For reference, the observable universe is composed of 2 trillion galaxies spanning roughly 100 billion light years. This sounds like a low-end rather than a baseline for "all of space and time". Decades ago it was only 100 billion galaxies (which is now only considered our local supercluster). Even before that, the Milky Way was considered to be the known universe at the time.
The point being made here is the observable universe is only a region of the actual universe, it should not qualify for something we consider a baseline. Therefore, I suggest we do some meddling about to provide a more accurate alternative.
Proposals
There are a few propositions in dealing with this.
The simplest and arguably most effective solution is to stop treating the observable universe as the baseline for what we consider to be a universe. The observable universe is literally a region of the Universe. Interpreting "I'll destroy the universe" as "I'll destroy the region of the universe you know about" in a verse where the observable universe isn't even acknowledged (and doesn't follow real life cosmology) is bad practice because there is no evidence they are talking about only the known region of the universe. So the observable universe would instead be considered Low Universe level due to it being only a region of the actual Universe. This can be applied in many ways which include but are not limited to:
A. Make 3-A "Low Universe level" specifically for feats that involve the observable universe. Keep High 3-A and Low 2-C the same. This is a fast solution but is not exactly the most accurate.
B. Probably the most scientifically accurate solution is to merge High 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite three dimensional space is more relevant than mere four dimensional time. Time without space is meaningless and therefore treating a temporal dimension as superior to a spatial dimension attack potency wise is pretty bad and we've been ridiculed for it for ages, one of the ridicules I begrudgingly agree with. Keep in mind we would be putting universe level feats at whichever tier designation we keep, High 3-A or Low 2-C. 3-A will still become Low Universe level.
C. Merge 3-A to 3-B and make High 3-A baseline Universe level (meaning remove High 3-A as a tier, make it 3-A but keep High 3-As description). I'm not too fond of this one as it still treats four-dimensional time as superior to its counterpart which it is dependent on to even be relevant but veteran dimensional tiering users might prefer Low 2-C be left alone.
D. Merge 3-A to 3-B and merge High 3-A and Low 2-C into the new 3-A. Same as before but without the differentiation between time and space as anything meaningful.
E. The simplest application of them all would be having the tiers themselves will be left alone, but all universal feats are Low 2-C until proven otherwise rather than being 3-A.
There are more proposals but I'll reveal them as we discuss so to not overwhelm everyone with just my own thoughts. Others should feel welcome to propose similar or different suggestions to this endeavor.
Reminder
This is just an open discussion to get all the ideas thrown out there. This is not the official revision. Again, the actual organized revision will be posted shortly following this one should we agree that the current standards for Universe level need to change. Please keep this discussion on topic as I'm not making another one for open discussions.
