THAT SCP Revision (Yes, it's High 1-A)

[Darksmash]

Well if he is busy he doesn't need to make a complete response. He can at least just come and tell whether he will make another response later or not.

 

[Overlord775]

just came here to say this:

We SHOULDN'T just hand out the "Protagonist" plot thing to anybody willy nilly, because it contradicts showings

Able got thrown into a death hole and perma died, 682 got hit by the death-from-the-cavern and perma died, 96 got his neck snapped and died of bone melting juice, 173 got hammered into pieces, Dr. Wondertainment got shot to death, and there's probably many more example of this

We should only give it to characters that have an actual good reason of having it

 

[Starter_Pack]

Just want to comment saying Ant pinged me twice for this thread, but I will not participating in this as it is way beyond my scope in both tiering and knowledge of SCP.

My apologies.

 

[Bobsican]

IDK about SCP, but DontTalk does bring up some solid points and I think it'd be best to wait for what he thinks on the matter. Even if a lot of users agree with this and all, we don't appeal to popularity but to what's really most accurate for our purposes, and ignoring a bureaucrat that's very well versed on tier 1 standards goes against that.

 

[InfiniteDay]

IDK about SCP, but DontTalk does bring up some solid points and I think it'd be best to wait for what he thinks on the matter. Even if a lot of users agree with this and all, we don't appeal to popularity but to what's really most accurate for our purposes, and ignoring a bureaucrat that's very well versed on tier 1 standards goes against that.

A single bureaucrat, against 32 people who include many high-ranking staff isn't exactly fair, no? This isn't an appeal to popularity.

 

[Bobsican]

It is an appeal to popularity fallacy when you're focusing a lot on the numbers. A good portion of such members may just be blindly agreeing and whatnot after all.
Tier 1 is also an area even staff are known to be unsure on at times, and ignoring the user that did the foundations for how tier 1 works is far from a good idea.

 

[InfiniteDay]

It is an appeal to popularity fallacy when you're focusing a lot on the numbers. A good portion of such members may just be blindly agreeing and whatnot after all.
Tier 1 is also an area even staff are known to be unsure on at times, and ignoring the user that did the foundations for how tier 1 works is far from a good idea.

We're not ignoring, and we're not only focusing on numbers. You say a "good portion" and assume people likely agree blindy, when all scp supporters are in agreement of this, and considering that a majority of votes are blind is bad-faith. And yet, many staff agree with it, and knowledgeable members such on tier 1, such as Ultima also agree with this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What’s with people rush in passing CRT this thread has not even been open for a week
Calm down and wait for people to respond as not everyone has the time to reply every few hours. the ratings has been there a while it remaining there for another week or two won’t kill anyone

 

[The_Impress]

...why are you acting like DT hasn't inputted in months? Just have a fraction of patience lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I have strong faith in DontTalk in this area, so until he gives a go-ahead, it is not just one bureaucrat against this being applied yet, it is two.

 

[The_Impress]

Like recognise you're not doing shit like "Ima add SPC to 682", verses especially as expansive as SCP wouldn't resolve in a few days, hell we explicitly had given people a month to form arguments during the Marvel tiersplits.

This is supposed to be a CRT, not an ambush. Let thread opponents form arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

Well said. Frenetically rushing such an high-tier revision is not adviseable at all.

 

[Darksmash]

While I understand not wanting to rush a CRT, the topic of SCP's tier has been extensively discussed already offsite prior to this thread. So the perspective of those who were involved in those offsite discussions likely doesn't align with the perspective of people who are seeing this for the first time.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Like recognise you're not doing shit like "Ima add SPC to 682", verses especially as expansive as SCP wouldn't resolve in a few days, hell we explicitly had given people a month to form arguments during the Marvel tiersplits.

This is supposed to be a CRT, not an ambush. Let thread opponents form arguments.

For the record I think the fact a Marvel CRT went for months is unreasonable by itself, also iirc it was to gather evidence for the counter claim which as far as I can tell DT isn't doing
We're really arguing over the presented scans so I don't see why we need to drag it out, if anything I feel like it kills the other side due to IRL stuff (I know that Oven has some problems on that front)

Also Ant do you actually have an opinion on this matter or are just going purely of what DT is saying?

 

[Antvasima]

I am mostly just careful regarding such high-tier revisions, and think that DontTalk's arguments seem to make sense.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay but what do you think about the topic?
Why do you agree with him?
Like dude if your opinion is just "DT is right" how is that different then blue names FRAs on mass which we as staff have on multiple occasions went out of our way to go against?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not remember the details, as the arguments were quite technical regarding mathematic theory. As I said, I am just being careful, and think that they seemed to make sense when I read them.

In any case, attempting to fanatically rush a possible tier 0 revision is completely unacceptable. Show at least a modicum of patience and wait for DontTalk to respond instead of repeatedly bothering me regarding the issue.

Some revisions in this community have taken years to finish. A few days or weeks is nothing. We are in no hurry here.

 

[Lou_change]

I am mostly just careful regarding such high-tier revisions, and think that DontTalk's arguments seem to make sense.

I understand the logic he was one of the main experts on 1-A and higher tiers he still is but I think people are so excited because what it represents for the verse the scp research team has been focused on this change for a long time often other CRTs have been left stranded for awhile and this was something that the team has been mentioning for awhile.

There's also the idea they just don't respond something happened or all of a sudden DT decides to just not respond.

These aren't the only reason people can be impatient perhaps they don't like the precedent it could set.


I agree we should wait but remember the context behind the impatience.

 

[Abstractions]

While I am not SCP expert, I put my trust in those truly knowledgeable on the series to recognize where it fits into the tiering system. While I'm inquisitive as to who actually qualifies for the protagonist stuff because of how broadly it can be applied. But I am in support of these changes.

I do however see something that I find pertinent to discuss here:

You cannot just overrule a bureaucrat. You need to try to convince him of your points or reach a compromise solution with him.

There's something about one voice overpowering those of many people who are knowledgeable on the subject being discussed and others that find agreement in the things being said that just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

What I think you need to recognize here is that allowing the potential to stonewall a revision by needing to cater to a singular person while a gross majority already finds the decision to be sensible is not only an appeal to authority but rather perpetuates the damaging narrative that we are in fact elitist, and that only the voices and opinions of staff members matter, and that not even staff matters when it concerns someone higher up on the food chain. It reinforces the mindset that onlookers have of us in the community, not a good look.

I do not intend to fear monger when I say this, but I genuinely believe that we cannot operate in this manner at all times lest it create more problems and a divide in our community because the community is all we have; our pages are designed to be a community-agreed-upon rating/interpretation, so let's make sure we are affirming that all voices matter here.

Also, I have strong faith in DontTalk in this area, so until he gives a go-ahead, it is not just one bureaucrat against this being applied yet, it is two.

You're allowed to have faith in him, he wouldn't be in the position he's in if you didn't, but Ultima is a consultant regarding the tiering system himself and he agrees with these changes, why not put as much faith in him as you do DT?

Of course DontTalk is allowed to take time to respond, I'm not saying he doesn't, but I do believe this important to say because we really don't need any more staff/user division right now.

Thank you.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Some revisions in this community have taken years to finish. A few days or weeks is nothing. We are in no hurry here.

Also for the record if a CRT took years to finish then something has gone terribly wrong.
If a CRT has an overwhelming agreement from multiple staff and blue names it should frankly not take that long to finish, although I do want to put for the record that it's rather bizarre that from the start you pinged staff on mass on this thread after people here already agreed on it (Heck if I recall with Twin Peaks upgrade to tier 0 Ultima's say was enough there) so what's up with that?

 

[Antvasima]

Abstractions:

Look, I don't mind these revisions being applied after we have verified that they are acceptable, but given the extremely high-tier nature of them, I want to make absolutely certain first, and not rush them, and given that DontTalk and Ultima are both highly knowledgeable staff members, I am additionally uncertain in this case, and waiting for DontTalk for a few days or even weeks is not a big deal compared to me waiting for years for some revisions to be applied in the past.

 

[Antvasima]

Also for the record if a CRT took years to finish then something has gone terribly wrong.

I am talking about finding knowledgeable people and waiting for them to finish preparing the revisions, and then eventually applying them.

If a CRT has an overwhelming agreement from multiple staff and blue names it should frankly not take that long to finish, although I do want to put for the record that it's rather bizarre that from the start you pinged staff on mass on this thread after people here already agreed on it (Heck if I recall with Twin Peaks upgrade to tier 0 Ultima's say was enough there) so what's up with that?

That is nothing out of the ordinary. Tier 0 revisions are a very sensitive issue, and I want us to be absolutely certain before we allow it.

I do not remember how we handled the Twin Peaks revision, but several wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I am talking about finding knowledgeable people and waiting for them to finish preparing the revisions, and then eventually applying them.

So stalling basically, because for some reason I do not think forum vs debating is such a fine art that it takes several bloodly years to finish

That is nothing out of the ordinary. Tier 0 revisions are a very sensitive issue, and I want us to be absolutely certain before we allow it.

I do not remember how we handled the Twin Peaks revision, but several wrongs do not make a right.

So...
What are the wrongs here?
Do you not trust Ultima or what, should we recheck Twin Peaks then?
Tier 0 is not a sensetive issue, it's just that we decided for some reason only 2 people's say matter on the topic and today for some reason you just hold one of their voices in higher regard then the other

 

[Antvasima]

So stalling basically, because for some reason I do not think forum vs debating is such a fine art that it takes several bloodly years to finish

No. I mean that it took years for me to get people to fix Naruto and Umineko/07th Expansion, for example, and it might take around 1.5 years until we have finished with our preparations for the DC Comics cosmology revision.

So...
What's the wrong here?
Do you not trust Ultima or what, should we recheck Twin Peaks then?

I trust Ultima, but DontTalk is also extremely reliable. As I said, I just want to use safeguards so we are absolutely certain, and do not hastily rush things. That is all.

Tier 0 is not a sensetive issue

No, it definitely is a very sensitive issue. We cannot rush out such extreme tiers. It would risk to turn our system far more unreliable than it currently is.

it's just that we decided for some reason only 2 people's say matter on the topic and today for some reason you just hold one of their voices in higher regard then the other

DontTalk has very reliably helped me out to an extreme degree for over 6 years, and never had any slip-ups that I recall. Of course I hold him in extremely high regard. That doesn't mean that I have any distrust whatsoever for Ultima. Stop trying to use your new staff position to be subversive and instigate problems that never existed.

 

[Tllmbrg]

No. I mean that it took years for me to get people to fix Naruto and Umineko/07th Expansion, for example, and it might take around 1.5 years of preparations until we have finished with our preparations for the DC Comics cosmology revision.

...bro by that logic SCP did the bloody same, or does our work behind the scenes not count because interent verse that people always go "Haha we should nuke it"?
This legit comes off as insulting, at least to me

No, it definitely is a very sensitive issue. We cannot rush out such extreme tiers. It would risk to turn our system far more unreliable than it currently is.

This's literally like a jump from 2 to 1, it ain't that extreme what?

DontTalk has very reliably helped me out to an extreme degree for over 6 years, and never had any slip-ups that I recall. Of course I hold him in extremely high regard. That doesn't mean that I have any distrust whatsoever for Ultima. Stop trying to use your new staff position to be subversive and instigate problems that never existed.

I'm not

 

[Tago238]

I think the main issue is not "nooooooo we can't wait a single day" it's "holy **** why is a bureaucrat stonewalling a thread because another one denied it for arguments that he doesn't understand and which other opponents have not been able to continue using. This is a terrible precedent."

Ant really is just using an argument from authority that's applied extremely poorly because the argument isn't even a "technical" issue. Anything esoteric that's been referenced here at best requires a single google search to understand; it's literally just been a philosophy of mathematics debate that hasn't even referenced any writers for ****'s sake. No "authority" is needed.

"I do not remember the details, as the arguments were quite technical regarding mathematic theory. As I said, I am just being careful, and think that they seemed to make sense when I read them."
Stop saying his arguments "make sense" to you when you can't describe what they are. The only way that statement could be justified is if you meant it to say "his arguments were in English, I speak that language", which obviously isn't what you meant at all.

"In any case, attempting to fanatically rush a possible tier 0 revision is completely unacceptable. Show at least a modicum of patience and wait for DontTalk to respond instead of repeatedly bothering me regarding the issue."
Bro plenty of standards informing threads have been rushed to shit. If you saw a CRT downgrading top tiers in marvel to tier 2 or something you'd try and get that done as fast as you could. The only thing you actually believe should dictate the length of threads are your poorly justified personal biases when it comes to philosophies, verses and people. Poorly justified might be too much credit though since you never really justify them with the exception of verses you dislike.

"DontTalk has very reliably helped me out to an extreme degree for over 6 years, and never had any slip-ups that I recall. Of course I hold him in extremely high regard. That doesn't mean that I have any distrust whatsoever for Ultima. Stop trying to use your new staff position to be subversive and instigate problems that never existed."
How can you ever really determine how many slip ups a tiers person has had though? You frequently admit to not understanding whatever they are talking about, your assessment of their competence is based on how many big words they use and how much they suit your personal biases when it comes to precedence between them. That's not to say either of them isn't competent but Christ, you don't even see DT win debates because there's a prejudiced and insincere duration given to arguments he's in.

"No. I mean that it took years for me to get people to fix Naruto and Umineko/07th Expansion, for example, and it might take around 1.5 years of preparations until we have finished with our preparations for the DC Comics cosmology revision."
So why are these right while the Twin Peaks thread was wrong?

 

[AKM sama]

Be patient guys. I know how many supporters of the verse have been forming these arguments for how many days considering there is a SCP server offsite where discussions have already taken place before this thread was posted. The least you could do is give the opposition proper time to respond too.
You have multiple people putting days of work into this, but you shouldn't run with the assumption that your CRT will be accepted in a jiffy because of that. Other people should also have the chance to take time and respond.

This is a place for discussion. So let people discuss. Let them have some time and make counter arguments. Make sure they are answered satisfactorily. It doesn't help that several people (including staff) can discuss something together offsite for god knows how many days and say their piece on the thread and then expect it to go at the speed they desire. I am not siding with any arguments because I don't know the verse. I haven't read the thread either and I don't give a damn who is right. But you should all calm down and let proper discussion take place, and accept that it can take some time due to the people providing counter arguments being busy with their lives too. It's not like DT is working in bad faith and purposely ignoring this thread just to stonewall. In fact, not waiting to properly flush out the counter arguments would be bad faith.

Just give it some time, alright? This thread was posted only two days ago for ****'s sake and it's already being rushed? You guys disappoint me.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, I suppose that you have a point that I tend to trust DontTalk to a perhaps excessive degree, but I am not doing so because he suits my personal biases, but because he has been ridiculously reliable over the years.

I am personally mostly neutral regarding this issue, but just want to be careful with big revisions. As such, I still think that we should wait. There is no great hurry here.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Just give it some time, alright?

This is not the reason 95% of the people in this thread are upset. I'm sure most of us are pacient enough to wait to debate someone.

The issue came from a sentiment of elitism, with many having the impression that if Don'tTalk simply said no then the CRT is ******. The, frankly speaking, outrage came from Ant's rushed comments in this thread, which made it seem like a purple name could just shut down any number of people below them, other staff included.

Hopefully things calm down now, but comments like this do not help. Stop misrepresenting people to build your own narrative.

 

[Promestein]

We can afford time and space for DontTalk to respond with his argument without saying that DT's position and knowledge means he can't be wrong or overruled by a strong enough argument with a lot of support, and without derailing the thread or accusing staff of actively instigating trouble.

Threads shouldn't go on for months, yeah, but this started on Friday and it's Monday, and it's a big thread. It's gonna take a little bit and arguments should be heard out before things go through. I would say it's very disingenuous to paint the arguments here as people trying to rush this, though, when they're really just taking issue with Ant's conduct and approach to arguments involving DT; as Crimson said, Ant very much gives the impression that this thread will ride or die on DT's approval alone, which is complete and utter horseshit.

 

[InfiniteDay]

For those who have most recently responded, do you have any opinions on this crt or are you simply wishing to not evaluate the crt?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I apologise to Tllmbrg if I misinterpreted his intentions.

Stop saying his arguments "make sense" to you when you can't describe what they are. The only way that statement could be justified is if you meant it to say "his arguments were in English, I speak that language", which obviously isn't what you meant at all.

I am constantly jumping between different threads, and have problems remembering more complicated arguments to the point where I can reiterate them. That is all. It isn't a particularly big deal.

Bro plenty of standards informing threads have been rushed to shit. If you saw a CRT downgrading top tiers in marvel to tier 2 or something you'd try and get that done as fast as you could.

No, I only think that uncontroversial threads should be accepted very quickly. A massive Marvel revision is not uncontroversial. Also, I want to split the scaling between different eras or cosmology-defining writers, not just blindly downgrade things. Reliability is what I am aiming for, not bias.

The only thing you actually believe should dictate the length of threads are your poorly justified personal biases when it comes to philosophies, verses and people. Poorly justified might be too much credit though since you never really justify them with the exception of verses you dislike.

That is another unfair personal attack. I have a very long list of verses that I dislike that I have favoured, and verses that I really like that I have disfavoured, during revisions. You can check my wiki user page if you do not believe me.

How can you ever really determine how many slip ups a tiers person has had though? You frequently admit to not understanding whatever they are talking about, your assessment of their competence is based on how many big words they use and how much they suit your personal biases when it comes to precedence between them. That's not to say either of them isn't competent but Christ, you don't even see DT win debates because there's a prejudiced and insincere duration given to arguments he's in.

I am trying my best to keep track, but there is recurrently too much work to properly do so in a continuously focused manner. I usually firmly believe in delegating evaluations to people who have greater expertise in a given area than I do though.

So why are these right while the Twin Peaks thread was wrong?

I did not say that the Twin Peaks revision was wrong. I said that I do not remember the specifics anymore, but if it actually was rushed, as Tllmbrg claims, two wrongs do not make a right in this regard.

 

[Antvasima]

This is not the reason 95% of the people in this thread are upset. I'm sure most of us are pacient enough to wait to debate someone.

The issue came from a sentiment of elitism, with many having the impression that if Don'tTalk simply said no then the CRT is ******. The, frankly speaking, outrage came from Ant's rushed comments in this thread, which made it seem like a purple name could just shut down any number of people below them, other staff included.

Hopefully things calm down now, but comments like this do not help. Stop misrepresenting people to build your own narrative.

Okay. I suppose that I messed up in how I worded things then. I am constantly very tired and busy, and am not perfect and slip up at times. I am working very hard to be helpful in general though.

 

[Antvasima]

We can afford time and space for DontTalk to respond with his argument without saying that DT's position and knowledge means he can't be wrong or overruled by a strong enough argument with a lot of support, and without derailing the thread or accusing staff of actively instigating trouble.

Threads shouldn't go on for months, yeah, but this started on Friday and it's Monday, and it's a big thread. It's gonna take a little bit and arguments should be heard out before things go through. I would say it's very disingenuous to paint the arguments here as people trying to rush this, though, when they're really just taking issue with Ant's conduct and approach to arguments involving DT; as Crimson said, Ant very much gives the impression that this thread will ride or die on DT's approval alone, which is complete and utter horseshit.

Okay. So I messed up again then. At least it only happens sporadically.

 

[AKM sama]

Stop misrepresenting people to build your own narrative.

If this is aimed at me, I am not misrepresenting people. I am aware of everything you wrote in your comment. But only scrolling a few comments above, I can see a few people getting restless to get this CRT accepted because there is already some staff support for it, and that those few were not interested in waiting for some more time, given their comments of "we'll wait for only one more day" and "you're stalling the thread". My comment is aimed at them.

I am drawing the line here. Any further comments on this derail will be deleted.

 

[Roachman40]

following

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Can we perhaps add the stuff that no one has had an issue with? The alephs are only one part of it

 

[InfiniteDay]

If this is aimed at me, I am not misrepresenting people. I am aware of everything you wrote in your comment. But only scrolling a few comments above, I can see a few people getting restless to get this CRT accepted because there is already some staff support for it, and that those few were not interested in waiting for some more time, given their comments of "we'll wait for only one more day" and "you're stalling the thread". My comment is aimed at them.

I am drawing the line here. Any further comments on this derail will be deleted.

I'll ask again in case you missed it, do you have any opinions of the crt itself?

 

[Scottycj256]

I'll ask again in case you missed it, do you have any opinions of the crt itself?

no lmao, he's only here for damage control

 

[AKM sama]

I am not siding with any arguments because I don't know the verse. I haven't read the thread either and I don't give a damn who is right.