THAT SCP Revision (Yes, it's High 1-A)

[InfiniteDay]

We need to get a reasonable amount of staff input before upgrades to massively high tiers.

Except most of the scp supporters are staff, who have all agreed without disagreement on this matter.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Seems like needless to boot
What staff that aren’t knowledgeable members gonna add to the discussion lol

 

[Rikimarox2]

We need to get a reasonable amount of staff input before upgrades to massively high tiers.

We already have like 3 staff members accepting this, and one of the most knowledgeable and credible members, Ultima, already agreed to it.

And just like what tllm said, what will people who have no knowledge on this will bring, when other knowledge and credible members already accepted it?

 

[Antvasima]

We need some experienced staff confirmations at least. I will call for some more of them in order to make certain. Revisions like this should definitely not be impatiently and hectically rushed. We can wait for quite a while.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I don't know enough SCP to weigh in with any real degree of authority. Personal biased included though I don't like scaling tales to each other in any capacity.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yeah, I agree with the High 1-A stuff, haven't read through the other stuff.

 

[Elizhaa]

The OP seem fine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?

Yes, to your second question, since SCP-5800, the article in question, is about another reality inhabited by a bunch of creatures that are the size of alephs and have an hierarchy ordered around this specific characteristic (Size):

Right, so what we've learned so far about SCP-5800 is that it's an ecological ideaspace for extremely volatile abstract concepts. These things have a hierarchy of sorts which is dictated by the size of these beings.

I use the term "size" loosely because th- [coughs] there ah… these things are presented in sets of infinities; like how many integers or natural numbers there are in- in mathematics. The sheer size of these- these beings are defined as uncountable infinities. Despite logic telling us that there can't be anything larger in scale than… well… infinity.

Yeah, I know to the average layman that can't be possible. But it's very much true. These beings are represented by their "aleph numbers": numbers which represent the cardinality of infinite sets. Professor Hutchinson stated that such beings exist in these numbers and have been known to for quite some time.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I'm not touching SCP with a 10-foot pole, so I will just ask my usual question: Do the alephs only exist as concepts or is there actually anything physical/spatial of which there are as aleph_{whatever} many?

The creatures in question are explicitly aleph-sized, as in their size corresponds to an aleph.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't know enough SCP to weigh in with any real degree of authority. Personal biased included though I don't like scaling tales to each other in any capacity.

This is generally my stance as well, aye.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yes, to your second question, since SCP-5800, the article in question, is about another reality inhabited by a bunch of creatures that are the size of alephs and have an hierarchy ordered around this specific characteristic (Size):

I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large. And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large. And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.

It's not "size" in the actual sense, as explained here:

"I use the term "size" loosely because th- [coughs] there ah… these things are presented in sets of infinities; like how many integers or natural numbers there are in- in mathematics. The sheer size of these- these beings are defined as uncountable infinities. Despite logic telling us that there can't be anything larger in scale than… well… infinity.

Yeah, I know to the average layman that can't be possible. But it's very much true. These beings are represented by their "aleph numbers": numbers which represent the cardinality of infinite sets. Professor Hutchinson stated that such beings exist in these numbers and have been known to for quite some time."

It also states that they exist inside there aleph numbers, and therefore occupy the same level as them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large

I wouldn't say that. Saying something is "20 large" is a meaningless descriptor because "20" can refer to a bunch of different things, many of which we wouldn't classify under the same tier at all (20 meters, 20 centimeters, 20 kilometers, 20 bananas, 20 planets, 20 universes, and etc). When you reach the size of large enough alephs, those distinctions don't really mean much because a set of anything at these cardinalities would be higher-tiered, whether its elements are universes or 0-dimensional singletons.

And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.

I'm less knowledgeable on that aspect than others on this thread, admittedly, but the verse itself does seem to treat their "size" as a literal characteristic, else their usage of aleph numbers to represent it wouldn't really be sensical, added to how the lowliest inhabitant of 5800 is described as "less than nothing" compared to the other beings in there. Other people could probably better inform you of this, though.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I wouldn't say that. Saying something is "20 large" is a meaningless descriptor because "20" can refer to a bunch of different things, many of which we wouldn't classify under the same tier at all (20 meters, 20 centimeters, 20 kilometers, 20 bananas, 20 planets, 20 universes, and etc). When you reach the size of an aleph, those distinctions don't really mean much because a set of anything at these cardinalities would be higher-tiered, whether its elements are universes or 0-dimensional singletons.

I'm less knowledgeable on that aspect than others on this thread, admittedly, but the verse itself does seem to treat their "size" as a literal characteristic, else their usage of aleph numbers to represent it wouldn't really be sensical, added to how the lowliest inhabitant of 5800 is described as "less than nothing" compared to the other beings in there. Other people could probably better inform you of this, though.

That is true if it is 20 of anything and not 20 in size in the way the set {1,2,3}, as set of abstract mathematical objects, is 3 in size.

Now they do appear to have a hierarchy in my understanding, question is just whether the power gaps can be proven to be correspondingly large or whether the alephs just serve as the ordering of the powerlevels.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That is true if it is 20 of anything and not 20 in size in the way the set {1,2,3}, as set of abstract mathematical objects, is 3 in size.

I don't think that's a very good example here because, even then, you can conceive of "1," "2," and "3" as points of the real line, and thus as 0-dimensional objects, meaning this would be, indeed, a set of "something."

Now they do appear to have a hierarchy in my understanding, question is just whether the power gaps can be proven to be correspondingly large or whether the alephs just serve as the ordering of the powerlevels.

The aleph numbers in question are a measure of the "fractal topology" of these entities (In the verse's own words), and given that a topology on a set is itself another set (Or a set of sets, I suppose), I'd say it is a very direct correspondence, coupled with the above.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think that's a very good example here because, even then, you can conceive of "1," "2," and "3" as points of the real line, and thus as 0-dimensional objects, meaning this would be, indeed, a set of "something."

1, 2, 3 as points of a physical space is just one interpretation of the mathematical object. As mathematical objects alone they aren't spatial points. Set theoretically speaking 1 is just {{}}, i.e. the set containing the set containing nothing.

The aleph numbers in question are a measure of the "fractal topology" of these entities (In the verse's own words), and given that a topology on a set is itself another set (Or a set of sets, I suppose), I'd say it is a very direct correspondence, coupled with the above.

Said fractal topology in my understanding is SCP-033 (SCP-3125 which is mentioned as resident of SCP-5800 in the previous CRT mentions such), which is a field of numbers which sums up to an integer of all things. That doesn't sound like an infinite powerlevel hierarchy thing to me at all. (That SCP-033 seems to subvert standard mathematical ordering doesn't help either)

 

[Pepsiman25th]

following

 

[Ultima_Reality]

1, 2, 3 as points of a physical space is just one interpretation of the mathematical object. As mathematical objects alone they aren't spatial points. Set theoretically speaking 1 is just {{}}, i.e. the set containing the set containing nothing

Yes, and my point is that there is reason for us to assume the beings from 5800 are not really abiding by some purely abstract interpretation, at least not entirely, else, as I said, their "sheer size" being directly said to be expressed by aleph numbers wouldn't make much sense under any metric, but I suppose that segues into the argument below, anyway.

Said fractal topology in my understanding is SCP-033 (SCP-3125 which is mentioned as resident of SCP-5800 in the previous CRT mentions such), which is a field of numbers which sums up to an integer of all things. That doesn't sound like an infinite powerlevel hierarchy thing to me at all. (That SCP-033 seems to subvert standard mathematical ordering doesn't help either)

"Theta-Prime" is specifically the dimensionality of 3125's topology (Which I elaborated on the nature of, up there), and 3125 itself as far as I am aware has no evidence of being particularly noteworthy among the inhabitants of the Infosphere (5800) that doesn't come from heavily biased cultists, so that doesn't really serve as counter-context for anything, I don't think.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

What do you think about this?

I lack the proper knowledge to evaluate SCP stuff and give a solid opinion, sorry.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yes, and my point is that there is reason for us to assume the beings from 5800 are not really abiding by some purely abstract interpretation, at least not entirely, else, as I said, their "sheer size" being directly said to be expressed by aleph numbers wouldn't make much sense under any metric, but I suppose that segues into the argument below, anyway.

Their sheer-size can be expressed in terms of aleph numbers due to them being abstraction which's "size" is just the projection unto cardinality.

"Theta-Prime" is specifically the dimensionality of 3125's topology (Which I elaborated on the nature of, up there), and 3125 itself as far as I am aware has no evidence of being particularly noteworthy among the inhabitants of the Infosphere (5800) that doesn't come from heavily biased cultists, so that doesn't really serve as counter-context for anything, I don't think.

I don't think having a integer-valued (i.e. finite dimensional) fractal topology exactly works as supporting context for anything either, though. Like, the OP argued that the fact that it is, in terms of relativistic physics, 5 dimensional is not a counter-argument since the dimensions are things like abstractness instead of physical space. If so, a topology contained in that would similarly not be of literal spatial nature, but of abstractness one.

In fact, I think this makes it sound like 'size' in the sense of amount/cardinality would be one of those dimensions and cardinality is used as a sorting factor along one of those dimensions, which makes up part of the order of ideas. Them devouring each other is explicitly the process of one idea devouring the other and falling out of favour. And there would be other ideas, with other factors (i.e. size along other dimensions), which could be stronger without being of higher cardinality.

Really, the more I look into this the less I support this rating.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Their sheer-size can be expressed in terms of aleph numbers due to them being abstraction which's "size" is just the projection unto cardinality

How does that make sense, though? As far as I can tell, your whole argument seems to hinge on the idea that the alephs are representative of their ordering and not their literal size, but I fail to see how that follows, given the whole purpose of an aleph number is to represent the size of a set. If it were a matter of ordering alone, ordinal numbers (Like ω, and so on) would be used instead.

I don't think having a integer-valued (i.e. finite dimensional) fractal topology exactly works as supporting context for anything either, though.

Never said it did. The point I was making is that 3125 having a finite-dimensional topology in this case is neither supporting context nor counter-context. It just does not affect the argument whatsoever.

Like, the OP argued that the fact that it is, in terms of relativistic physics, 5 dimensional is not a counter-argument since the dimensions are things like abstractness instead of physical space. If so, a topology contained in that would similarly not be of literal spatial nature, but of abstractness one.

Does that really matter, though? There are plenty of fully abstract locations and characters in other verses that nevertheless are tiered as if they have size, or at the very least something analogous to that which conveys a sense of superiority over some given structure. Same thing applies here, with the added context of size being directly stated to still be the primary factor that determines the hierarchy of the Infosphere.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I mean, saying something is aleph in size is like saying something is 20 large. And isn't that a concept/idea space populated by concepts? From what I read none of that space is physical and size is more a metaphor here, to describe the difference between the amounts of infinite sets, rather than actual meters or something.

Even the weakest of the Anti-Idea Aleph entities are more complex and massive than the whole of the human noosphere, and is less than nothing compared to the higher beings in the hierarchy.

That is true if it is 20 of anything and not 20 in size in the way the set {1,2,3}, as set of abstract mathematical objects, is 3 in size.

Now they do appear to have a hierarchy in my understanding, question is just whether the power gaps can be proven to be correspondingly large or whether the alephs just serve as the ordering of the powerlevels.

Their sheer-size can be expressed in terms of aleph numbers due to them being abstraction which's "size" is just the projection unto cardinality.


I don't think having a integer-valued (i.e. finite dimensional) fractal topology exactly works as supporting context for anything either, though. Like, the OP argued that the fact that it is, in terms of relativistic physics, 5 dimensional is not a counter-argument since the dimensions are things like abstractness instead of physical space. If so, a topology contained in that would similarly not be of literal spatial nature, but of abstractness one.

In fact, I think this makes it sound like 'size' in the sense of amount/cardinality would be one of those dimensions and cardinality is used as a sorting factor along one of those dimensions, which makes up part of the order of ideas. Them devouring each other is explicitly the process of one idea devouring the other and falling out of favour. And there would be other ideas, with other factors (i.e. size along other dimensions), which could be stronger without being of higher cardinality.

Really, the more I look into this the less I support this rating.

Yes, complexity and size is related to their aleph numbers and place in the hierarchy. Just the entrance to the 5800 ecology is complex enough that foundation computers are supposed to be incapable of processing it, and at the climax of the Antimemetics Division 3125 was even holding all of human thought (the noosphere) throughout history in its jaws, thus further cementing this difference. I figure it is also worth mentioning that this "mere" complexity of topology drawn out in a diagram of conceptual space hurts to think about and process while not even being complete models. Wheeler describes them such: "There are diagrams on the walls too, which are too complex to decode at a glance, but complex enough to make her eyes hurt to look at them.". Using alephs as just a numerical system is incredibly arbitrary if they are already in the apparent practice of graphing idea complexes within calculatable dimensional spaces; they might as well have used some other random term if Alephs don't actually correspond to differences in size/'power'. Being able to draw 5 or a fancy equivalent between 5 points on a graph isn't enough to describe its true form/size/complexity/geometry, and the calculations required to exhaustively analyze and refute its form mathematically required ideas and equations bigger than the noosphere as well. Describing these beings as less than nothing relative to each other also further backs up that these are real size differences.

More importantly, to the entities in conceptual space, these things are viewed as very real and literal (for lack of a better term), even if in a different space from ours. For example, the Foundation is capable of putting physical and semi-physical objects into the conceptual space of the noosphere in SCP-5225. That's pretty open and shut that the relative size is not just an abstraction, if things can have relative size compared to each other as compared to physical objects in our world. As another example, The way Mnomsyne.AIC sees the noosphere and infosphere aren't just grafted points on a grid to her. To help conceptualize this, the antimemetics division series sometimes discusses the idea of mental distance; material distance between us as wiki members doesn't matter because we inhabit the same headspace and share information, and thus are very close in ideatic space. The different people of VSB, for example, are continents apart but in close mental proximity to each other, and whether you are talking to someone over the internet or in person you are still close memetically/mentally. We have much closer mental distance than my neighbor whom I have never talked to. To us, this sounds all very abstract, but to beings made of information and memes, this distance is more manifest 'physically.' An ambitious memetic hazard would have a much easier time traveling from me to you in conceptual space than it would to the people next door. That's my understanding of it, I hope that helps you wrap your head around it

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, how could I forget? We already have confirmation that SCP-3125, despite being an meme complex is "physically" large enough that just a subsection of it is already intersecting with every point in our universe that is not specifically purged of its influence. There is more clear proof that these Sizes are at least equivalent enough that they would qualify for tiering based on it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just for context on what the Noosphere/Infosphere actually is, it is a place where ideas exist. Not just human thoughts, but literal ideas that are abstract. It has an ecosystem that is comprised of sentient, living, ideas that consume each other to grow stronger. These creatures are represented as aquatic life. The following is an excerpt from Project RUBY:

Spoiler

"The floating mind at once becomes aware of that which surrounds her, the countless things floating in the ocean around her body. Shimmering bodies of all manner of ethereal creatures from the tiniest swarms of krill to schools of magnificent fish rivaling her in size gather around to welcome the disturbance in their water. A group of star-shaped jellyfish covered in blinking lights of blue and yellow constellate around the intruder, tickling her skin as they brush against her — she regrets deciding that her hands are the most beautiful thing she will ever see so abruptly and quickly rescinds it.

Past the smaller creatures, she notices a deep blue, many-finned behemoth swimming through the water, the bright grey spots lining its back blinking through the void. The beast draws near, close enough for her to reach out and stroke its bony, ridged head with her hand, then passes her by and swims out of reach. She watches its slow retreat into the darkness beyond her perception with awe.

Then, as soon as it's disappeared, another takes its place — a great stingray emerges from the light above and circles her playfully, beacons of crimson and orange flickering on its spiny back. The creature dips and dives through a lit spot in the water before her - as if showing itself off. She laughs, beckoning it closer with an outstretched hand. The creature encircles her a few times more, approaches, then rockets to the surface as quickly as it dove.

Beyond her immediate awareness, in the deep blue, a vast shadow lies dormant; she cannot make out its entire shape, but its presence is unmistakable. She'd better not swim too far."

The context is the A.I. construct Mnemosyne being born and waking up to the Noosphere for the first time.

In addition to that, there are hierarchies that exist.

Spoiler

We were fishing in dangerous waters. Should've known we might end up baiting a shark, but Amari kept pulling, until she pulled it out of the water.

And for a brief moment, I saw the other side — the infosphere.

SCP-5712 is barely the tip of the iceberg. Belial called it a "bottom feeder", and they weren't lying. It might be a shark to us, but compared to the things on the other side, it's less than nothing. It just happened to be the first one we let in.

Now the real sharks know the way in. And they smell blood.

In the above we are introduced to SCP-5712, described as being a "bottom feeder", and pales in comparison to the likes of SCP-3125, the Fifthist God (Also known as the Starfish). It threatened to subsume all human thoughts, ideas, and concepts into itself, which would inevitably render humans thoughtless and likely comatose. Now this creature, along with other creatures like 3125, come from an "alien" Noosphere. A place with no human thoughts, hence, the alien descriptor.

Spoiler

SCP-3125 is an invasive memetic ecology or possibly a single large self-organized informational construct, originating in an informational system or alien noosphere with much higher complexity than that of humanity. As such these incursions are naturally adept at Identity Warfare, and are to be considered extremely dangerous.

The above comes from the tale "In the Trenches with the Dead".

Now we know that the Noosphere has defined size and space because the Foundation has physically traversed it before.

Spoiler

SCP-5225 is an artistic constructohazard that is biologically self-contained within an organically inaccessible region of the Noosphere. Prior to its discovery and subsequent expansion, SCP-5225 was only accessible to mechanized organisms and experimental artificial intelligence. Since then, SCP-5225 has expanded to approximately 174.8% its original size, resulting in the partial assimilation of sections of the Noosphere pertaining to visual abstraction, conjecture, and metacognition. While SCP-5225 is physically incapable of being accessed by any biological entity under normal circumstances, it can be forcibly breached via experimental paratechnologies.

Once an individual or intelligence accesses SCP-5225, they are designated the Anchor of the ensuing 5225/Obelisk-Event. Obelisk-Events occur entirely within the Noosphere, slowly spreading outward from the Anchor. Once in this stage, SCP-5225's influence is capable of spreading through physical, mental, or conceptual proximity to the Anchor. SCP-5225 typically prioritizes the artistic elements of its host, spreading first to nearby concepts and abstractum that more closely resonate with the Anchor's idea of creativity.

Once SCP-5225/Obelisk expands beyond the Anchor, it will begin generating a number of structures within Noosphereic space around the Anchor, linking the connections together. Despite existing entirely within the Noosphere, these structures are pseudo-physical, and can be mentally interacted with by those with mental proximity to the Anchor. As time progresses, the Obelisk will spread and grow into a conceptoconstruct roughly resembling a mental city. At this point the Anchor is unable to exit SCP-5225, and is repurposed into a type of mental conception engine, powering the construct. After an Obelisk has infected a certain number of concepts, it will undergo a conceptual relativity collapse, and cause a 5225/Monolith-Event. Monolith events are characterized by the sudden breaching of the structures created during the previous 5225/Obelisk-Event into physical reality.

The above is an excerpt from SCP-5225. It is a phenomenon that allows real physical people to traverse a part of the Noosphere. Their entrance creates physical constructs within it that can be interacted with.

Below is an excerpt from SCP-3125 that describes its nature. Note, SCP-5800 supports the following description applying to all Noospheric creatures. (To see the actual page in the link, press 5 in the button pad five times and then press "GO")

Spoiler

SCP-3125 is an extremely large (see full Θ'-dimensional fractal topology, attachment 13), highly aggressive anomalous metastasized meme complex originating externally to our reality and now partially intersecting it.

SCP-3125 is adapted for survival in an ideatic ecology considerably more violent and hostile than our own. (Here, "our own" refers to human head space: the set of all ideas which humans have or are biologically capable of having.) Because humans have no natural exposure to ideas as aggressive as SCP-3125, human minds have no protective evolutionary adaptations against it. Individuals possessed of SCP-3125 become incapable of entertaining weaker, "conventional" ideas, and become instead wholly bodily subordinate to the purpose of serving and disseminating the core concepts of SCP-3125. In addition, although undergoing no outwardly visible physical alteration, they cease to be externally recognisable as human.

TL;DR:
The Infosphere is made up of creatures represented as aquatic life.

These creatures have a pecking order.

Despite being a place full of purely abstract ideas, the Infosphere has space.

The creatures have sizes that dwarf our physical universe.

I have given explanations and proof on the Noosphere/Infosphere so I hope everyone understands what we're dealing with. If anything needs extrapolating, do feel free to ask as this is just a part of many other descriptions of the Noosphere/Infosphere.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Missed Iapitus' post while I was typing the above, but I agree with his stance as well.

 

[Courtney]

Yeah, I think it's fine for those on TBD level to be flat 1-A.

The lower God tiers like Hanged King and Yaldabaoth would remain 2-A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher.

Yaldabaoth threatens all dimensions, so maybe higher?

 

[Scottycj256]

lets go High 1-A to Tier 0 upgrade

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yaldabaoth threatens all dimensions, so maybe higher?

Literally covered in a previous revision. The SCP where that statement comes from got nuked.

 

[Scottycj256]

so would the Foundation itself be bumped up to High 1-A, possibly 0 when using Swann, or are the authors the Foundation uses just the avatars of the true authors

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Let's focus on proving the Alephs are real first then move on to tiering.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, @DontTalkDT .

What do you think about the new points above?

 

[DontTalkDT]

How does that make sense, though? As far as I can tell, your whole argument seems to hinge on the idea that the alephs are representative of their ordering and not their literal size, but I fail to see how that follows, given the whole purpose of an aleph number is to represent the size of a set. If it were a matter of ordering alone, ordinal numbers (Like ω, and so on) would be used instead.

I'm not saying ordering in the mathematical sense of ordinals, I'm saying they are representative of size in the mathematical, but not a physical sense. The idea of an aleph number in this space is from what I have seen a literal idea. Likewise, their size is the mathematically associated size/amount the aleph describes as idea. Just a set, as a purely mathematical object, at most given some arbitrary visual analogy like other ideas in that space are fish. Nothing in this space is physical or spatial on any level. It's all literally just ideas interacting with each other in a common mental space.

In the case of aleph numbers mathematical ideas. And while their cardinality might be one factor, in this space ideas aren't just ordered by cardinality. They are (also) ordered by complexity, abstractness, contagiousness and corruptibility. An idea that is completely unrelated to aleph sizes could in principle defeat them, due to excelling more in these areas than alephs.

The defeat of an idea in this space doesn't mean physical destruction either. Instead, it might turn rotten or simply fall out of favour. A mental change to the thoughts of people, not a physical change to the world at large.

Does that really matter, though? There are plenty of fully abstract locations and characters in other verses that nevertheless are tiered as if they have size, or at the very least something analogous to that which conveys a sense of superiority over some given structure. Same thing applies here, with the added context of size being directly stated to still be the primary factor that determines the hierarchy of the Infosphere.

In other verses, the abstract levels are levels of higher reality containing reality or being linked to it in a fashion that their destruction would mean its destruction or that those who live in them hold infinite power over the usual world due to their superiority. This is nothing like that. This is about things happening on a mental landscape which changes peoples minds.
It's like making someone high 1-A for dreaming of mathematics. Or for thinking of cardinalities.

Not that we have the actual proof for this even if we took the space to be a literal space, since for all we know the cardinalities are just bigger fish, which's size is equal to their influence just like all the other aquatic idea creatures inhabiting that space.

Even the weakest of the Anti-Idea Aleph entities are more complex and massive than the whole of the human noosphere, and is less than nothing compared to the higher beings in the hierarchy.




Yes, complexity and size is related to their aleph numbers and place in the hierarchy. Just the entrance to the 5800 ecology is complex enough that foundation computers are supposed to be incapable of processing it, and at the climax of the Antimemetics Division 3125 was even holding all of human thought (the noosphere) throughout history in its jaws, thus further cementing this difference. I figure it is also worth mentioning that this "mere" complexity of topology drawn out in a diagram of conceptual space hurts to think about and process while not even being complete models. Wheeler describes them such: "There are diagrams on the walls too, which are too complex to decode at a glance, but complex enough to make her eyes hurt to look at them.". Using alephs as just a numerical system is incredibly arbitrary if they are already in the apparent practice of graphing idea complexes within calculatable dimensional spaces; they might as well have used some other random term if Alephs don't actually correspond to differences in size/'power'. Being able to draw 5 or a fancy equivalent between 5 points on a graph isn't enough to describe its true form/size/complexity/geometry, and the calculations required to exhaustively analyze and refute its form mathematically required ideas and equations bigger than the noosphere as well. Describing these beings as less than nothing relative to each other also further backs up that these are real size differences.

More importantly, to the entities in conceptual space, these things are viewed as very real and literal (for lack of a better term), even if in a different space from ours. For example, the Foundation is capable of putting physical and semi-physical objects into the conceptual space of the noosphere in SCP-5225. That's pretty open and shut that the relative size is not just an abstraction, if things can have relative size compared to each other as compared to physical objects in our world. As another example, The way Mnomsyne.AIC sees the noosphere and infosphere aren't just grafted points on a grid to her. To help conceptualize this, the antimemetics division series sometimes discusses the idea of mental distance; material distance between us as wiki members doesn't matter because we inhabit the same headspace and share information, and thus are very close in ideatic space. The different people of VSB, for example, are continents apart but in close mental proximity to each other, and whether you are talking to someone over the internet or in person you are still close memetically/mentally. We have much closer mental distance than my neighbor whom I have never talked to. To us, this sounds all very abstract, but to beings made of information and memes, this distance is more manifest 'physically.' An ambitious memetic hazard would have a much easier time traveling from me to you in conceptual space than it would to the people next door. That's my understanding of it, I hope that helps you wrap your head around it

Much of what you're saying literally supports my point, you know? It's a mental space with the ideas of cardinals running around along with other mental ideas, not as literal physical piles of things that amount matches their cardinality.

Being higher than human comprehension is really not much of an argument. That just means that the ideas in question have a higher placing in the ordering of that place than human consciousness. Higher than human in mental/idea terms, but not physically. And that one researcher described different sizes of infinity as illogical, so I don't expect much of them to begin with.

The fact that people can enter that place isn't really supporting anything either. It's a feat of Immersion. It doesn't make the mental space more physical than someone with the ability to enter dreams makes them physical. Distance within that space exists as much as distance covered in a literal dream. It an analogon for the proximity of ideas and minds, not physical stuff.

The idea of an infinity having a large size in an idea sense doesn't justify High 1-A scaling in my book.

 

[Darksmash]

I'm saying they are representative of size in the mathematical, but not a physical sense. The idea of an aleph number in this space is from what I have seen a literal idea. Likewise, their size is the mathematically associated size/amount the aleph describes as idea.

The ideas are not ideas of aleph numbers though. They are ideas whose sizes are represented by aleph numbers. If they merely represented aleph numbers then you wouldn't need to talk about size at all. You can just label some random objects as aleph 1,2,3 etc.

Also it's very clear in-verse that infosphere stuff actually physically exists(in some sense at least) out there. For example in SCP 4755 when Irantu was ascending through the conceptual tiers and reaches tier 4(anti noospheric) he says this:

Irantu: The view is incredible, Dr. Bracks. I can see the universe as it really is, in all times and in all places. I can see you, too, on your little world beneath me. I do not mean to be rude, but it is objectively small.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk seems to make good points.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The ideas are not ideas of aleph numbers though. They are ideas whose sizes are represented by aleph numbers. If they merely represented aleph numbers then you wouldn't need to talk about size at all. You can just label some random objects as aleph 1,2,3 etc.

Also it's very clear in-verse that infosphere stuff actually physically exists(in some sense at least) out there. For example in SCP 4755 when Irantu was ascending through the conceptual tiers and reaches tier 4(anti noospheric) he says this:

If they are ideas whose size is represented by aleph numbers... then they are still just ideas. Like, the idea of real numbers can be represented as aleph_1 and their powerset as aleph_2. That doesn't mean that the existence of these ideas in real life and the fact that, in real life, their size can be represented in terms of cardinals means real life is 1-A. Ideas interacting with ideas in idea space, is ultimately not a tiering thing.

I don't see how that quote proves it to be more than a mental landscape at all. Like, we have already established that immersion into mental spaces is a thing. If you mean to suggest that the real world in SCP is part of the mental landscape, that would be contradicted by this quote saying it's like an entirely separate world.

 

[Darksmash]

I don't see how that quote proves it to be more than a mental landscape at all. Like, we have already established that immersion into mental spaces is a thing. If you mean to suggest that the real world in SCP is part of the mental landscape, that would be contradicted by this quote saying it's like an entirely separate world.

When Irantu ascended in conceptual tiers, he saw the actual physical universe as "objectively small". What part of that has anything to do with immersion at all?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I don't see how that quote proves it to be more than a mental landscape at all. Like, we have already established that immersion into mental spaces is a thing. If you mean to suggest that the real world in SCP is part of the mental landscape, that would be contradicted by this quote saying it's like an entirely separate world.

Except the Noosphere has been stated multiple times to be an extradimensional realm. In fact the Infosphere is not just a realm of thought, but also a realm where completely foreign and alien ideas exist and thrive as an ecology.

Again, I must reiterate: This is a real space. It is physically traversable. Just because it is functionally a "realm of thought" it does not disqualify it from having spatiotemporal dimensions.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Much of what you're saying literally supports my point, you know? It's a mental space with the ideas of cardinals running around along with other mental ideas, not as literal physical piles of things that amount matches their cardinality.

Being higher than human comprehension is really not much of an argument. That just means that the ideas in question have a higher placing in the ordering of that place than human consciousness. Higher than human in mental/idea terms, but not physically. And that one researcher described different sizes of infinity as illogical, so I don't expect much of them to begin with.

The fact that people can enter that place isn't really supporting anything either. It's a feat of Immersion. It doesn't make the mental space more physical than someone with the ability to enter dreams makes them physical. Distance within that space exists as much as distance covered in a literal dream. It an analogon for the proximity of ideas and minds, not physical stuff.

The idea of an infinity having a large size in an idea sense doesn't justify High 1-A scaling in my book.

I was attempting to help you understand the idea of a mental distance that is metaphysically an actual distance even if we do not see it as such as material beings. When one is submerged in conceptual space, even something like an information reconstruction of a person from memory (which is "physically" the size of a person), you are able to perceive these things as distance. Its just a more psuedo-scientific take on the Warp to pull back the fancy coating. Also, even if we decided to go with your interpretation, they definitely are still "physical"/very literal piles of things, they would be sets of ideas that are the size of Alephs arranged in a complex. It just so happens that in SCP ideas can indeed have dimensions.

Okay, clearly my point here did not come across well. You had concern that because 3125 had a topology that could be graphed using finite numbers, so I was attempting to clarify and explain how you were oversimplifying the issue. Also, no, they are not "higher" than humans they are bigger. 3125 had the whole human noosphere inside of it, 'physically' if in immaterial space. You can argue that the size is a metaphor or an abstract but they do have what both material and immaterial beings view as Size. A mere subsection of 3125 does also physically exist at every point in our universe:

SCP-3125 is subject to inverted containment protocols, and is present everywhere in reality except for those places which have been specifically purged of its influence. The interior of Cognitohazard Containment Unit 3125 on Site 41, where this document resides, is the only location in the world known to have been successfully purged in this way.

I know this also isn't some metaphor, because there isn't a mind to hold even the most abstract notion of SCP-3125 in the vacuum of space. If its size is purely an abstract with no true dimensions at all that could be analogous, then SCP-3125 would not be able to physically dwarf our physical universe. I am also gonna go ahead and shoot down the possibility that this is just nigh-omnipresence, because Anti ideas are not native to our material or immaterial universe, and they are not omnipresent in their own ecology either, so this is not some natural ability for them.

Okay, so what about the inverse. If an abstract, conceptual entity can enter our universe, is that also immersion? Clay from We Need to Talk about 055 and Aleister Grey from Introductory Antimemetics are both ideatic entities who are able to enter our material universe. The previous is wears physical matter after he enters, the latter has an ideatic informational body that he still walks around our 3 dimensions hunting down his prey. So we have one case where an ideatic being enters our reality and wears flesh, and one that remains wholly composed of conceptual material. As the Foundation may submerge matter into conceptual space, conceptual beings are able to, in various ways, submerge themselves in our world of hard matter. Would you say that ships and demons being able to enter and leave the warp and material space is also immersion?
To further reiterate on what I said above, SCP-3125 is also able to intersect with every point in our universe with a mere subsection of itself. Even in the most abstract interpretations of this conceptual 'space' the entities there in needs to have their sizes at least literal enough to allow for it dwarf physical space in such a way that it can exist at every point in the universe without there being a mind present to think about it.

The entrance to it is a physical rift in our universe though. You can sail directly in like the eye of terror