TenSura LN Major Revision - Raphael is a Regeneration Device

[Astral_Trinity439]

Apologies for the late response, I was rather busy with other things, but I've finished them now, so here we go....

It is already accepted that they are physical. They are literally described as the heart of all matter, have a mass (even if it almost zero).

I don't agree with them being BDE Type 1 in the first place anyway.

Indeed, if you claim that information particles are abstract, make a crt because it is already accepted that they are physical quantum particles.

You cannot have the "Godly" regeneration if you still have a physical part in the first place.

The same particles are also accepted as BDE1 as seen in the DLF page, so no, I don't need a CRT to make them non-physical. Since the BDE1 CRT was after the CRT where they were accepted as the latter, it's logical to use the latter.

Also, when I look at this scan again, there really doesn't seem to be a distinction made between Data Particles and Data, but normally a distinction is made between Information Particles and Information.

Can you give a reference for this? I'll check out raw

It's Volume 13. Data Particles and Info particles are the same thing, same with data and information, they're alt translations, I thought that was clear seeing the Slimereader V19 and the OTL V19

V13:

まず、不定形な波長である自我があり、それを包む〝情報子〟の集合体──心核コ コ ロがある。これに、全ての情報が刻まれているのだ。
First, there is the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths, and then there is the Heart Core, a collection of ”information particles“ that surrounds the ego. This is where all information is engraved.

The scan makes it clear that the heart core is the information particles themselves, while the data/information is stored/engraved on these particles.
V19:

《クレイマンの〝心核ココロ〟を構成していた〝情報子〟を『隔離』してありましたが、これを寄せ集めてティアの欠けた部分を補いますか？》
《The “information particles” that made up Clayman's heart core have been “isolated”. Would you like to gather them together to fill in the missing pieces of Teare?》

As you can see, the Kanji is the exact same.
And just in case you're wondering, yes, the same Kanji is used for the info particles that constitute DLFs

《精神生命体ならば、全ての物質を〝情報子〟へと変質させる事で、情報生命体デジタルネイチャー へと至っているのでしょう》
《By transforming all substance into “ information particles”, a spiritual lifeform would have evolved into an information lifeform, a digital nature.》

 

[CodeCCLL]

The same particles are also accepted as BDE1 as seen in the DLF page, so no, I don't need a CRT to make them non-physical. Since the BDE1 CRT was after the CRT where they were accepted as the latter, it's logical to use the latter.

In the thread in which BDE Type 1 was accepted, the fact that information particles are quantum particles that form 3-dimensional structures was completely ignore, so you cannot cover up a mistake with another mistake.

However, I should still point out that just because something is physical does not mean that it cannot lack spatial and temporal properties, such things are possible in fiction.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In the thread in which BDE Type 1 was accepted, the fact that information particles are quantum particles that form 3-dimensional structures was completely ignore, so you cannot cover up a mistake with another mistake.

Correction, they don't "form" them, they exist at the heart of them. You don't need some extra flowery language to conclude that info particles are the conceptual heart of all things.

However, I should still point out that just because something is physical does not mean that it cannot lack spatial and temporal properties, such things are possible in fiction.

Unrelated, Info particles are not "lacking spatio-temporal things because they're not physical" but rather "lacking physicality because they're not spatio-temporal". Don't try to reverse the analogy.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Correction, they don't "form" them, they exist at the heart of them

Are you claiming that all matter, even photons, has a heart? Good luck proving it then.

Unrelated, Info particles are not "lacking spatio-temporal things because they're not physical" but rather "lacking physicality because they're not spatio-temporal". Don't try to reverse the analogy.

I'm not reversing the analogy, you claim that something that doesn't have spatial and temporal properties cannot be physical in the first place, and I tell you that even if in the real world is not possible, it is might be possible in fiction.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

It's been 12 days since the creation of this thread, Where are the mods?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Are you claiming that all matter, even photons, has a heart? Good luck proving it then.

We already discussed in the BDE1 thread how Information particles are smaller than Photons. Why are you forgetting that?

I'm not reversing the analogy, you claim that something that doesn't have spatial and temporal properties cannot be physical in the first place, and I tell you that even if in the real world is not possible, it is might be possible in fiction.

Let me quote you

However, I should still point out that just because something is physical does not mean that it cannot lack spatial and temporal properties, such things are possible in fiction.

And quoting myself

Info particles are not "lacking spatio-temporal things because they're not physical" but rather "lacking physicality because they're not spatio-temporal"

You don't need to be some genius to understand how the analogy is being reversed. I conclude A[lack of physicality] from B[lacking spatio-temporal properties], while you said B[lacking spatio-temporal properties] cannot be concluded from A[lacking physicality] alone. So that's indeed by analogy reversed and used as a counter to my non-reversed analogy, even tho you and I both know vice versa is not always applicable.

I tell you that even if in the real world is not possible, it is might be possible in fiction.

One needs a logical reasoning from in-verse to conclude that "it's possible because it's fiction", but the "it's possible because it's fiction" itself is not and must not be the first assumption.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

It's been 12 days since the creation of this thread, Where are the mods?

Watching the bloodshow from the VIP section while eating popcorn likely

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Watching the bloodshow from the VIP section while eating popcorn likely

 

[CodeCCLL]

We already discussed in the BDE1 thread how Information particles are smaller

The fact that it is smaller does not mean that photons also have a heart, it just supports the statements that it even creates photons.

You don't need to be some genius to understand how the analogy is being reversed. I conclude A[lack of physicality] from B[lacking spatio-temporal properties], while you said B[lacking spatio-temporal properties] cannot be concluded from A[lacking physicality] alone. So that's indeed by analogy reversed and used as a counter to my non-reversed analogy, even tho you and I both know vice versa is not always applicable.

You are the one making the positive claim that something lacking spatial and temporal properties cannot be physical, so the burden of proof is on you.

One needs a logical reasoning from in-verse to conclude that "it's possible because it's fiction", but the "it's possible because it's fiction" itself is not and must not be the first assumption

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying it's possible unless proven otherwise.

Furthermore, while dimensional structures are always material composites, which can be divided into different parts and be expressed as the sum of these parts, undimensioned characters have no parts whatsoever, not being composite beings in any physical sense. Indeed, although a 0-dimensional point has no spatial parts which it can be divided into, even it can still serve as a part of a larger spatial composite, whereas undimensioned beings cannot.

As long as a character is not made up of physical composites, can still be physical and BDE Type 1.

If I believed that information particles weren't spatial, I will agree with they could be BDE Type 1 even though they were physical.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Why are you guys arguing this? I remember a statement (don't know if it's about info particles) saying something akin to "they're the smallest component of all matter, having as close to zero mass as possible". They're also the reason stuff like quantum manipulation was added aren't they?

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Why are you guys arguing this? I remember a statement (don't know if it's about info particles) saying something akin to "they're the smallest component of all matter, having as close to zero mass as possible". They're also the reason stuff like quantum manipulation was added aren't they?

It was stated that they have close to no mass,but it is also stated that they are smaller than even photons.a 0-DimensionaI and Mass-Iess particIe (Which I will leave to astral if he wants to explain it farther)

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, if this "information particle" have mass, which is stated to be smaller than photon and close to zero, that mean this particle is physical particle??, physical information??

 

[Berga14]

Wait, if this "information particle" have mass, which is stated to be smaller than photon and close to zero, that mean this particle is physical particle??, physical information??

Nah, that close to 0 contraddict to many things and photons have 0 mass themselves to begin with.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The fact that it is smaller does not mean that photons also have a heart, it just supports the statements that it even creates photons.

By itself, but the other statement "it exists at the heart of all things" support it.
Also, just to point out, it's not "matter" but "everything that exists in the world", that would obviously include photons, something that exist.

These data particles were even smaller than spiritual particles, she explained, their mass about as close to zero as you could get, and they were found in everything that existed in the world. ~ OTL Volume 11, Chapter 5

You are the one making the positive claim that something lacking spatial and temporal properties cannot be physical, so the burden of proof is on you.

They are "smaller than Photons", "unaffected by space and time". That is enough to suggest that.
It's not IP that's quantum particles, it's photons.

A photon (from Ancient Greek φῶς, φωτός (phôs, phōtós) 'light') is an elementary particle that is a quantum of the electromagnetic field, including electromagnetic radiation such as light and radio waves, and the force carrier for the electromagnetic force. Photons are massless particles that always move at the speed of light measured in vacuum. The photon belongs to the class of boson particles. ~ Wikipedia

Photons are also 0-Dimensional:

In summary, photons have no size, they are only points if treated as particles, and their energy comes from their speed/momentum/velocity. ~ Reference

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying it's possible unless proven otherwise.

What?
As far as I remember how the standards go, we treat the option that has more supporting evidence the "it's possible unless proven otherwise". It being physical has no supporting evidence whatsoever, so there's no "unless proven otherwise", it's "it needs to be proven otherwise[and cancelled with more solid evidence] for it to be physical"

As long as a character is not made up of physical composites, can still be physical and BDE Type 1.

To be made up of a physical composite is to have space-time to begin with. All tiers from Low 2-C to as far as Low 1-A still hold true to having "Space" and "Time", mind you, so something that lacks space-time automatically lacks that reality's physical composite.

Can you quote a standards page to back that up? Because you seem to be unaware of how the BDE1 standards work here.

Furthermore, while dimensional structures are always material composites, which can be divided into different parts and be expressed as the sum of these parts, undimensioned characters have no parts whatsoever, not being composite beings in any physical sense. Indeed, although a 0-dimensional point has no spatial parts which it can be divided into, even it can still serve as a part of a larger spatial composite, whereas undimensioned beings cannot.

Why are you guys arguing this? I remember a statement (don't know if it's about info particles) saying something akin to "they're the smallest component of all matter, having as close to zero mass as possible".

It was stated that they have close to no mass,but it is also stated that they are smaller than even photons. (Which I will leave to astral if he wants to explain it farther)

Simple, "Mass" is not something unique to physical things in tensura, so it having a mass does not mean it's physical, and the BDE still holds.

They're also the reason stuff like quantum manipulation was added aren't they?

Although I might be wrong, iirc, it was Jozay who made the CRT for it, and I wasn't present nor agree with it. If the above means their Quantum Manipulation is removed [from all profiles], so be it, they are not quantum particles anyways.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Wait, if this "information particle" have mass, which is stated to be smaller than photon and close to zero, that mean this particle is physical particle??, physical information??

As far as I know, there's a distinction between "Physical information" and "Spiritual information" in tensura. I believe there's an explanation for that in Rimuru's intelligence rating, either the Demon Lord key or the True Dragon key.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Wait, if this "information particle" have mass, which is stated to be smaller than photon and close to zero, that mean this particle is physical particle??, physical information??

İnformation particles and information are not the same thing, stop jumping into Tensura crts without knowing anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

Astral, having a mass mean it is physical, also Photon have 0 mass and is 0 dimensional still occupy spatial position within space-time, BDE mean you are undimensional. In fact it is directly on BDE page

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in spacetime, nor does its continued existence trace a path through it. They are, as such, much different from 0-dimensional characters, who simply have no extension in any dimension and still occupy spatial location.

İnformation particles and information are not the same thing, stop jumping into Tensura crts without knowing anything.

What??, i just make a question simply because exactly i don't know about Tensura aside from scans you guys sent throughout this discussion, so i want knowledge, why i must know Tensura in order to comment??, now you want me to not comment simply cause idk Tensura??, by that logic, staffs should not comment, arguing or voting because they don't know a thing about Tensura or verse that they don't know in general is that it??

 

[CodeCCLL]

By itself, but the other statement "it exists at the heart of all things" support it.
Also, just to point out, it's not "matter" but "everything that exists in the world", that would obviously include photons, something that exist.

Yes, let's ignore the scan that claim that everything that exists on Worlds means matter.

They are "smaller than Photons", "unaffected by space and time". That is enough to suggest that.
It's not IP that's quantum particles, it's photons.

Ok, you are free to mention this and other things in the BDE Type 1 downgrade.

They are "smaller than Photons", "unaffected by space and time". That is enough to suggest that.
It's not IP that's quantum particles, it's photons

Tensura's information particles (quantum particles) and information (type 2) and the relationships between information are already taken directly from real-life photons (according to wiki maqro-quantum) and information. If you claim that information particles are not quantum particles, make a CRT for this.

Photons are also 0-Dimensional:

Photons are theoretically 0-dimensional. In the wiki, we treat macro-quantum particles such as photons as 3-dimensional unless the verse defines them as 0-dimensional.

What??, i just make a question simply because exactly i don't know about Tensura aside from scans you guys sent throughout this discussion, so i want knowledge, why i must know Tensura in order to comment??, now you want me to not comment simply cause idk Tensura??, by that logic, staffs should not comment, arguing or voting because they don't know a thing about Tensura or verse that they don't know in general is that it??

I just want you to stop posting misinformation and misleading people (especially staff). If you can't understand this and are going to twist my words to justify yourself, go ahead. The same thing will happen to you as long as you are on this wiki.

 

[Vietthai96]

I just want you to stop posting misinformation and misleading people (especially staff). If you can't understand this and are going to twist my words to justify yourself, go ahead. The same thing will happen to you as long as you are on this wiki.

Oke, i need to clear this, i asked a question, why it suddenly turn into spreading misinformation, i simply confused and felt the need to ask a question because iirc, from the profile information particle is an evidence for information type 2, but suddenly one of the supporter sent a scan about the particle having form and mass which confuse the hell out of me so i just want to ask, what is so hard about it, even if i didn't ask, others could probably ask, even staffs too and if it not me but others you also gonna say stop making comment cause they don't understand or know the verse and say that they spread misinformation??

And even if my question is somehow meaning spreading misinformation, you can simply clear the misinformation by sending scans and arguments, etc...... In fact, i stopped pursuing the argument after you replied to my question, even though no scan attracted to your reply i still stop as you can see from my comment that i only replied to Astral claim of being 0-dimension is BDE1, you suddenly out of nowhere said i should not comment

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I just want you to stop posting misinformation and misleading people (especially staff). If you can't understand this and are going to twist my words to justify yourself, go ahead. The same thing will happen to you as long as you are on this wiki.

Chill

 

[CodeCCLL]

Photon have 0 mass and is 0 dimensional

Photons are theoretically 0-dimensional. In the wiki, we treat macro-quantum particles such as photons as 3-dimensional unless the verse defines them as 0-dimensional. Do you really think that anyone who can manipulate photons will be able to interact with the Monarch of Pointland (Zero Dimensional Existence)?

Oke, i need to clear this, i asked a question, why it suddenly turn into spreading misinformation, i simply confused and felt the need to ask a question because iirc, from the profile information particle is an evidence for information type 2, but suddenly one of the supporter sent a scan about the particle having form and mass which confuse the hell out of me so i just want to ask, what is so hard about it, even if i didn't ask, others could probably ask, even staffs too and if it not me but others you also gonna say stop making comment cause they don't understand or know the verse and say that they spread misinformation??

And even if my question is somehow meaning spreading misinformation, you can simply clear the misinformation by sending scans and arguments, etc...... In fact, i stopped pursuing the argument after you replied to my question, even though no scan attracted to your reply i still stop as you can see from my comment that i only replied to Astral claim of being 0-dimension is BDE1, you suddenly out of nowhere said i should not comment

Personally, I am careful not to make such comments about verses that I have no knowledge of, so I find those who do this annoying. Pretty understandable, I guess.

 

[Vietthai96]

Photons are theoretically 0-dimensional. In the wiki, we treat macro-quantum particles such as photons as 3-dimensional unless the verse defines them as 0-dimensional. Do you really think that anyone who can manipulate photons will be able to interact with the Monarch of Pointland (Zero Dimensional Existence)?

i mean, sure, i just want to point out that 0D isn't mean BDE1

Personally, I am careful not to make such comments about verses that I have no knowledge of, so I find those who do this annoying. Pretty understandable, I guess.

Oke, we chill, i just confuse so i want to ask, other than that i rarely involving myself too deep into a verse idk other than explaining the site standards in a neutral position, but it is nice to get more information or knowledge on matter so i have a habit of asking

Edit: In fact at least on our wiki Photon is considered Macro-Quantum

 

[CodeCCLL]

As far as I remember, photons are never referred to as massless in Tensura, and it is mentioned that information particles have almost 0 mass. So if I had to choose between assuming that the photons in Tensura are massless as in real life, seeing the almost 0 mass of information particles as a contradiction and ignoring other proofs supporting that information particles are physical, or accepting that the photons in Tensura don't have a 0 mass, I would find it logical that photons have mass (we are talking about a kind of fantastic science-fiction verse).

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Chill

Sorry for bothering, but can you give us your stance on this thread? (we'd also appreciate tagging mods cuz this thread is dry)

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Sorry for bothering, but can you give us your stance on this thread? (we'd also appreciate tagging mods cuz this thread is dry)

I think the same, I would like this thread to end already, it's been too many days with this topic.

It would be nice if you could tag the staff here, it would be very helpful.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree with everything Viet says

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Planck69 @Dereck03 @Sir_Ovens I've been requested to ping you guys again.